When to solo a student?

whereisrandall

whereisrandall

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Randall Williams
My first primary student is inching close to solo. I understand 61.87, and I plan on sending him for a phase-check ride with a very experienced CFI beforehand.

I feel like I have a good sense of what he still needs before it's time, but I'm curious - how do other CFIs know when you know?
 
When he quits trying to kill you?

Or

When he can do three laps in the pattern and you don't have to say a thing. My primary CFI told me, "If I'm just sitting here, not saying anything, and have a satisfied look on my face, you're doing it correctly."
 
Never did the phase check stuff, but telling when a student is ready to solo, it's like telling what's good porn, you might not be able to describe it, but you know it when you see it lol


Also if you have to ask yourself if he's ready, he's not ready.

If you're bored, and have the "....yup...he's ready" that's it.


I've noticed I wasn't doing jack and the student wasn't just safe, that's not good enough, he had a mastery of the aircraft, while he was flying the pattern I was digging around the back looking for his log and medical, laying some ink down, once I was done and he was on final I told him to pull just off the runway, I hopped out and said do at least three laps.
 
As a student not yet ready to solo, I'd like to suggest a method for you to try.

Hop in the plane and have your student handcuff your hands behind the seat, tie your feet together, put a gag in your mouth, and then fly you through a half dozen T&Gs.

If the thought of doing that scares you, he's not ready.

And I hope my instructor will be that diligent. My neck depends on it.
 
Two things I look for:
1. A series of good landings without my help
2. Student corrects his own mistake on a bad landing attempt
 
James331 said:
Never did the phase check stuff, but telling when a student is ready to solo, it's like telling what's good porn, you might not be able to describe it, but you know it when you see it lol
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But good porn has lots of wild oscillations and bouncing. Good landings do not.
:D
 
10 landings in a row where I don't have to say anything - along with knowing the rules and regs required.
 
Good landings, go-around, say it softly & nothing more unless necessary to judge his performance, radio work, pattern work w/ other planes, etc. If you're unsure let another CFI or two evaluate him but you'll have a hard time gaining confidence yourself if you don't make the determination.
 
SkyDog58 said:
But good porn has lots of wild oscillations and bouncing. Good landings do not.
:D
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Just gotta agree who gets to be on top...

Warrior-Stinson-landing-0508b.jpg


More photos and story: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=dce797bd-03fa-4e5b-945d-d5bc969afc7b
 
I soloed when they could consistently demonstrate safe landings. Good landings were a non issue; I was looking for safe. The third consistent lesson they would solo. Also they had to demonstrate successful outcomes from emergencies in the pattern.
 
whereisrandall said:
My first primary student is inching close to solo. I understand 61.87, and I plan on sending him for a phase-check ride with a very experienced CFI beforehand.

I feel like I have a good sense of what he still needs before it's time, but I'm curious - how do other CFIs know when you know?
Click to expand...
As someone told me when I soloed my first student and was watching him on downwind..."Don't worry, the lawyers will straighten it all out!":D
 
I'm not a CFI, but from a student standpoint I agree with the others.
When I solo'd I "wasn't quite ready" yet because my CFI would keep his hand on the stick and also give me lots of verbal cues. pitch up, pitch down, left rudder, etc and have subtle little nudges on the controls.
I did dozens and dozens of landings that were very very good, but once he solo'd me I was a complete train wreck because I had become dependent on the verbal cues and stick nudges. I got fast on final, landed flat, had a minor PIO (went around) and the heart was racing. I did a couple more go arounds and then got settled down and managed to get my three landings in as I was kind of teaching myself how to land without all the subtle coaching.
So, as the others have suggested you'll know when you can say nothing and do nothing for several trips in the pattern. If you're not comfortable without saying anything or providing input then he/she isn't ready yet.
 
tuwood said:
I'm not a CFI, but from a student standpoint I agree with the others.
When I solo'd I "wasn't quite ready" yet because my CFI would keep his hand on the stick and also give me lots of verbal cues. pitch up, pitch down, left rudder, etc and have subtle little nudges on the controls.
I did dozens and dozens of landings that were very very good, but once he solo'd me I was a complete train wreck because I had become dependent on the verbal cues and stick nudges. I got fast on final, landed flat, had a minor PIO (went around) and the heart was racing. I did a couple more go arounds and then got settled down and managed to get my three landings in as I was kind of teaching myself how to land without all the subtle coaching.
So, as the others have suggested you'll know when you can say nothing and do nothing for several trips in the pattern. If you're not comfortable without saying anything or providing input then he/she isn't ready yet.
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Holy crap.... I didn't let my guys solo until I was completely non existent in the airplane... Several times over.
 
Kritchlow said:
Holy crap.... I didn't let my guys solo until I was completely non existent in the airplane... Several times over.
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Correct.

If I can't sit on my hands and sight see my student isn't ready. I've only solo'd one student who was adamant he wasn't ready. I knew he was perfectly ready to solo, but lacked the self confidence. I told him either be a man or walk away to which he made three perfect squeakers an hour later.
 
Talking from the Student side, if my CFI had waited until I was 100% confident in my ability then I would still be working the pattern. I asked her how she knew, and she said what most are advising. She sent me solo when she no longer had to coach me on what to do, and instead she was just riding along while I landed the plane without input. That is exactly what I would be doing solo, only with a slightly higher anxiety level due to my own misgivings about being ready.
 
(Looking back) My instructor asked me when I would be ready to solo, I didn't think I was near ready and said "2-3 more hours" he said, you are ready now and I will only fly with you one more time, then you solo. I was ready, but needed confidence. Make sure your student is confident, not in being an awesome pilot, but being able to take it around the pattern and land it.
 
Or when your student shows up with a tripod and VHS camera! This happened w/ one of my students years ago, and I laughed and asked "what's all this s#@^?" He says "well thought I might solo today so...". We'll see. We go around the patch a few times. He was ready so we stopped and I got out and he soloed. Filmed it for him.
 
If you can sit quietly while your student saves a screwed up landing (or goes around as appropriate) then it's time to get out.

After the first couple of students, you'll know.
 
Kritchlow said:
I soloed when they could consistently demonstrate safe landings. Good landings were a non issue; I was looking for safe. The third consistent lesson they would solo. Also they had to demonstrate successful outcomes from emergencies in the pattern.
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I'm just asking, isn't it not just good or even safe (I'm not sure what the difference is yet) but also good landings with different crosswinds? If a student is so lucky, or unlucky, that most landings are with minimal crosswind, isn't there a requirement or at least a desire to see that they can handle moderate to even more crosswind on landings?
 
LongRoadBob said:
I...isn't there a requirement or at least a desire to see that they can handle moderate to even more crosswind on landings?
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No. All the regs say is crosswind. The CFI may impose crosswind limitations (or any other limitations that he feels may be necessary) in the student's logbook for the solo endorsement.
 
Blindrage said:
Talking from the Student side, if my CFI had waited until I was 100% confident in my ability then I would still be working the pattern. I asked her how she knew, and she said what most are advising. She sent me solo when she no longer had to coach me on what to do, and instead she was just riding along while I landed the plane without input. That is exactly what I would be doing solo, only with a slightly higher anxiety level due to my own misgivings about being ready.
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I'm not ready yet to solo. Only 4+ hours flying time in four different flights. On my third the instructor briefs me on (seemed out of the blue to me, because I had no idea what to expect) "when you take off you have to keep the centerline but also scan the engine instruments, and the airspeed...." Etc. and I thought to myself "good to know, I will file that away for when I am ready to take off". Me, slow on the uptake, I taxi out and suddenly realize "you aren't thinking I'M going to take off now are you?"

"yes, I think you should take off. Remember I'm right here and can correct"

No words for how unready I fealt...I thought this would be three or four flights down the road. I did it though, and I think he corrected (still not sure) here and there. Wasn't pretty I think, but there was a decent crosswind.

I was a little taken aback. He went on vacation and I arranged to fly (a new plane, or a different one anyway) with another instructor a week later, and I had mulled it over and thought "yeah...I think I do need him to push me like that" and had thought a lot about takeoff and what I did wrong and by the time I went on that flight I was ready in my mind (though nervous) to give it a go. It was my first unassisted takeoff. I don't have to tell anyone here how great that felt, and I know soloing, when I am ready (no matter what I think) will be s thousand times more so.

My main point, I think I need someone that pushes me that way if they do it the way he did. If you'd have asked me, I would have out it off feeling I needed more experience.
 
Sounds as if your first instructor neglected an important item in the briefing. He assumed that you thought that you were going to do the takeoff and you assumed that the was going to show you a takeoff.
 
Bobcat1 said:
No. All the regs say is crosswind. The CFI may impose crosswind limitations (or any other limitations that he feels may be necessary) in the student's logbook for the solo endorsement.
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Where I am flying out of, where I am learning, there often is crosswind and not always mild. I'm both worried about that and glad for that at the same time. I don't just want to pass, I want to know how to handle the plane in situations that are likely to come up so I feel I am able to control it.

I'm an older student, it might be that for a younger one it is just to "pass". Not for me. I'm cautious enough to want to test and find out how to deal with situations like crosswind that is more than just minimal, so I can be a safe pilot. I'm daring enough to want to learn to fly, and control an aircraft, but chicken enough that I want to build up my knowledge, experience and confidence to where I am not scared of crosswinds up to the point where a good pilot would consider another airport.

The regs may not require it, but I maybe have stricter standards for myself because I expect to have precious cargo (not least myself) and need to know I know how to handle it.

Have there not been cases of a studen that had it "easy" on landings being spooked when having to land with more than minimal crosswind?
 
Bobcat1 said:
Sounds as if your first instructor neglected an important item in the briefing. He assumed that you thought that you were going to do the takeoff and you assumed that the was going to show you a takeoff.
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To be fair, I may have just misunderstood. He was telling me in the briefing that I would be taking off, I just didn't catch on. It wasn't explicit but he gave me credit for being more aware than I am apparently.

I have a LOT of faith in my CFI. He's a great pilot, and has taught for years. The CFI (substitute) also I know to be a really good pilot so I know they are not taking chances and if I had done anything I shouldn't they would have taken over. Next up...stalls. I'm both nervous and excited about that. I remember as a kid my father doing stalls with me in the plane, I used to like them but wonder how it is going to be as a grown up :)

I have been on the other first two flights been "feeling the controls" as the CFI took off.
I guess it differs from place to place.
 
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LongRoadBob said:
I'm just asking, isn't it not just good or even safe (I'm not sure what the difference is yet) but also good landings with different crosswinds? If a student is so lucky, or unlucky, that most landings are with minimal crosswind, isn't there a requirement or at least a desire to see that they can handle moderate to even more crosswind on landings?
Click to expand...
Generally it took several pattern lessons to achieve solo, and during that time the student has experienced a variety of winds; enough where I could tell they were competent.
I also always endorsed the logbook with wind limitations.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm not ready yet to solo. Only 4+ hours flying time in four different flights. On my third the instructor briefs me on (seemed out of the blue to me, because I had no idea what to expect) "when you take off you have to keep the centerline but also scan the engine instruments, and the airspeed...." Etc. and I thought to myself "good to know, I will file that away for when I am ready to take off". Me, slow on the uptake, I taxi out and suddenly realize "you aren't thinking I'M going to take off now are you?"

"yes, I think you should take off. Remember I'm right here and can correct"

No words for how unready I fealt...I thought this would be three or four flights down the road. I did it though, and I think he corrected (still not sure) here and there. Wasn't pretty I think, but there was a decent crosswind.

I was a little taken aback. He went on vacation and I arranged to fly (a new plane, or a different one anyway) with another instructor a week later, and I had mulled it over and thought "yeah...I think I do need him to push me like that" and had thought a lot about takeoff and what I did wrong and by the time I went on that flight I was ready in my mind (though nervous) to give it a go. It was my first unassisted takeoff. I don't have to tell anyone here how great that felt, and I know soloing, when I am ready (no matter what I think) will be s thousand times more so.

My main point, I think I need someone that pushes me that way if they do it the way he did. If you'd have asked me, I would have out it off feeling I needed more experience.
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I am a bit shocked that the CFI let a takeoff go until the 4th flight. The instructor was working the rudder, and had hands on the yoke, but she had me do the rotation on my very first takeoff.

If it makes you feel better I am an older student as well, 49, and my main reason for getting getting a PPL is to take my wife and 5 yr old flying. So I totally understand not just wanting to get your PPL, but actually be ready to fly safely at the end of this process. As long as you have a decent CFI, that is exactly what they are training you for as well. The check ride will not test just the simplest of skills, at least that it what my CFI keeps telling me as I get down to the last few hours before actually have to do mine. Two week until my written, and hopefully 5 to 6 weeks from my checkride.
 
" Etc. and I thought to myself "good to know, I will file that away for when I am ready to take off". Me, slow on the uptake, I taxi out and suddenly realize "you aren't thinking I'M going to take off now are you?"

Wow, my students do the take off from the very first lesson with very little physical input from me.

Simpley taxing the airplane is prep for understanding the basics of control during takeoff. I don't touch anything unless I absolutely have to.

PJ
 
Mine took off on the second lesson. The first was a demo.
 
I had a total of 26 landings and 6.2 hours when I soloed.

I'm still convinced that my CFI confused me with another student, cuz when he signed my logbook he just let out a long, slow whistle.
 
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