When is it time????

ClimbnSink said:
No one would give her the bowling speech cause everyone is brainwashed not to be sexist pigs.
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What's the bowling speech?

And is brainwashing not to be a sexist pig necessary or is it a natural condition to be a sexist pig?
 
ifconfig said:
What's the bowling speech?

And is brainwashing not to be a sexist pig necessary or is it a natural condition to be a sexist pig?
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maybe bowling is a better use of your free time... the natural state of man fits under the current definition of sexist pig.
 
I remember reading an article about an 86 year old man that was at around 85 hours prior to getting his sport license. Well, I did some searching to see if I could find it and I did. Maybe this will give you some encouragement http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/December/preflight_success_st.html

I say you keep at it. Even me as a young 35 year old made sure to go out with multiple instructors. I wanted to test them out as much as they tested me out. I was in search of getting the best instruction I could get. I can say for a fact that not any instructor is the same. Good luck!
 
bbchien said:
Change instructors. No more 23 year olds. Find a 45 year old who knows ten ways to do anything.
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You've just described me! (At least I hope my 10 ways are all valuable!)
 
Ms. Lumpy,

As a teacher of a discipline which requires years of knowledge and skill (but not CFI) of some 25 years now, I have some thoughts for you.

1) As has been stated, there are very few persons who are absolutely unteachable in a particular subject.

2) Talent matters quite little; whereas earnest drive and enthusiasm AND hours put into a task matters VERY much.

3) Keep your eyes on your goal, and never lose sight of it. There is a lot to learn in becoming a pilot--silly to say otherwise--but you can get there.

4) TRUST yourself. You'll never do it if you don't think you CAN do it!

Lumpy Landings said:
When is it time to pull the plug on training?

I'm starting to think I'm just too old (I'm 60) and too uncoordinated to fly. After 43 hours, including 23 flying the traffic pattern I'm just starting to have some "ok" landings...I'm not always on the centerline, and I don't always have a stabilized approach...the times when I know I'm off I know to do a go around. My pattern work isn't stellar either, I'm off sometimes and when I turn (right hand patterns seem to be more difficult for me) I'm not always parallel to the runway. I seem to have difficulty in the wind (which is nearly 100% of the time here in New England now). I can get a bit thrown off when ATC gives more than standard requests. At this point I know I'm a long way from being able to solo, and I do understand why, after all this time I should be doing a lot better. I know it's my fault but I'm honestly trying as hard as I can...and I'm starting to think my CFI might be getting fed up with telling me to correct the many things I do wrong.


Am I being delusional thinking I can do this with enough time and money or am I being unrealistic? I don't want to seem negative with my CFI but should I ask him point blank if I'm not cut out to fly? Do you think he'd give me an honest answer?

Any advice would be appreciated.
Many thanks,
Lumpy
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A couple of suggestions...YMMV:

1. Don't give up...

2. Find a new instructor. I'll echo what many others have said. A good or great instructor is THE main variable in many problems. Many MANY instructors are great people who may have the best of intention, but often do not fully understand the learning process and do NOT know the best way to explain the various aspects of flying. Instructors are NOT created equal, and you may "click" better with another one. Having flown with several now, I can at last tell, but as a new student is often hard to know who is the best "fit" for you.
And for finding a better CFI...Shop around...

3. Along with this...find an instructor who will work with you on basic Attitude flying. The old guys/gals who have been around forever are best. Lots of young instructors spend way too much time having their students look inside. You should be able to fly the pattern (with your CFI beside you, ensuring that it is safe...) and NEVER look at the gauges. Attitude flight in VFR ASEL is HUGE...


4. Fly 4-5 days a week. It makes an ENORMOUS difference to have some consistency. Most folks struggle with only getting up two days a week. I started off two days a week, and bumping it up to four days a week radically changed the learning curve.

5. Spend some time at an uncontrolled field where you don't to talk to ATC...or...have your instructor handle all the radio calls so you can work on one variable at a time....namely aircraft control, and attitude flying..

6. Good luck!!
 
I think it's interesting you assume it's you. What if it's not?

Good students make mediocre instructors look like good instructors. It's easy to teach someone who is easy to teach. It's much harder to teach someone who's hard to teach. :) Your friend -may- be a good instructor, or just an average instructor who's been lucky to have good students. You won't know until you try someone else.

Also, In my experience, some CFIs are good pilots but only so-so *teachers*. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you can teach it effectively. It's even worse if they are a natural pilot... they have NO IDEA why you're not getting what they're showing you, so they'll just keep showing you the same way assuming you'll eventually get it.

What I'm saying is... the "try a different instructor" is really good advice. :)
 
With enough time and money, anything is possible. The positive thing is you are recognizing your mistakes. The real question you have to ask yourself is "How bad do I want this?" If the answer is "I really want this" and the money isn't putting you in a bind, just keep at it. Try flying with some other instructors maybe as well. I flew with a bunch of different instructors doing my PP, and each of them had something to add to the overall picture.
 
Age should not be an issue if you have reasonable vision and motor skills.
After 100 hours 7 instructors and 60 years I became a pilot.

99s was mentioned as a possible group you should contact, take that advice and see if they have any CFIs that they recommend. Google them to see if there is a group near you.

Step back and ask yourself if you enjoy flying.. if so keep at it. If it takes a little more time than others, so be it -- remember you get to fly while you learn,
not a bad deal, enjoy the experience
 
ifconfig said:
What's the bowling speech?

And is brainwashing not to be a sexist pig necessary or is it a natural condition to be a sexist pig?
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Sexist pig is part natural natural condition, part cultural training. Sad thing is, if it wasn't for girls cultural training not to use sexuality as a tool, they could use men's propensity to being sexist pigs to their advantage and rule the world. This of course is why we teach girls not to.
 
bbchien said:
Change instructors. No more 23 year olds. Find a 45 year old who knows ten ways to do anything.
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Just remember, not every 45 year old or even 65 yer old instructor knows 10 ways to do anything. Some of them are just as dense as their 23 year old counterparts.
 
Henning said:
Sexist pig is part natural natural condition, part cultural training. Sad thing is, if it wasn't for girls cultural training not to use sexuality as a tool, they could use men's propensity to being sexist pigs to their advantage and rule the world. This of course is why we teach girls not to.
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Wait, are you sure girls aren't using sexuality as a tool? You do live in Florida, yes?
 
Henning said:
Very few, strippers do it best, and look at the general cultural view of strippers.
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LOL! I love the weird and incredible directions these threads can take. Sorry, grandma OP. :)

All those millions of selfies may be some evidence to the contrary, Herr Henning. :D

As for which sex is ascendant in these United States, I quote Voltaire:
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

I think this was ClimbnSink's original point.
 
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I truly appreciate all your comments, honesty and spirited discussion.

The last thing I want to do is show any weakness or negativity as a student..I've never failed at anything in life and I don't want to start now. I fear my CFI might need a break from me too...I think I've been the worse student he's ever had :confused:


Thank you all so much for your suggestions I will try them all, and hoping for the best!!!!
Happy Holidays!

Lumpy
 
Find a new instructor and give it a chance. Also get a copy of the PTS.
The PTS is the MINIMUM requirements for a PPL. If your instructor isn't teaching from the PTS, fire him\her.
 
RichNY said:
Try flying a Cherokee and see if that does it for you. I had 10 hours in a 150 and couldn't do anything right until I flew a Warrior and soloed 2 hours later.
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Beat me to it.
I was going to suggest trying an airplane with a tad more weight to it.

The average 150 is hard for me to land nicely esp. in gusty conditions, But a 172, or 182, is way easier. And the Piper products handle x-wind like it's not even there. They are still basic trainer type aircraft, but are different.
 
FastEddieB said:
I don't think I agree with that advice.

The whole purpose of ground reference maneuvers is to build a feel for the effect of wind on the plane. With any wind at all, the headings flown in the pattern with appropriate wind correction angles will not be relative to any specific pre-figured headings on the DG.

A student, or any pilot really, should be focused outside the plane in the pattern - I don't see how incorporating the DG into pattern work helps in that regard - in fact, I think it would hinder.

But if it worked for you, great!
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My experience with getting a true feel of the airplane came at night, with no lights inside, and a lit runway.
I had been having trouble "hitting and holding the numbers" (Airspeed, Heading, Altitude) untill I had no instruments to look at, then it all clicked.
After a few circuits, the runway lights went off. I started to key the mic to bring them back up, and was told to leave them off, fly the pattern and land. after every change in power or attitude, he would shine the flashlight on the panel. Every time all instruments were spot on.
The landing was one of my best. with no runway illumination save the landing light, and none in the cockpit. The removal of the distractions inside the cockpit is what helped.
 
Lumpy Landings said:
<snip>

Hate to think I might end up being a grounded grandma :(:(:(
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How tall are you? Are you using a pillow? Talk to your instructor about what you can and cannot see. If you are not seeing properly over the glare shield, you cannot fly properly.

Don't give up. We need more grandmas out there. Women have a harder time learning to fly. I think it has a lot to do with attitude, but there may be other more natural barriers. It might have to do with how we learn. I think we tend learn differently. Older people have a harder time learning to fly. But, if you keep it up, you can learn. Maybe you need to be more impulsive.

It took me 300 hours. Now, that is quite a lot, but it is not a record. I finally got it after finding a cute young kid who just sat back and let me teach myself how to fly. "Should I try this?" "Sure, anything you want." "Well, that didn't work, why didn't you tell me it wouldn't work." "You need to set your own limits." "Should I try this other thing?" "Sure, whatever you want." over and over again.
 
Yeah, 150s aren't much fun in the wind, especially with 40 flaps. Especially if the ground-adjustible rudder trim is misadjusted.

Even a 172 will be easier. A rudder trim wheel and some more weight can really help.

I second the idea of a second instructor, even if only for a lesson. Would you believe I discovered it was possible for me to have my heels on the floor and still actuate the brakes slightly? I practiced endless thumpy soft field landings. Then my instructor got sick so I went up for one lesson with a sub. He diagnosed the problem my regular instructor couldn't figure out in one landing.
 
Try flying with a different instructor.

Don't view this as a bad thing for you or your instructor. Even the best instructor sometimes doesn't click with a student.
 
With regard to some of the comments about sexism, I'd just like to say to the OP that there are some flight schools that are not particularly friendly to women. I experienced one of those. For instance, when your CFI, upon hearing a woman on the radio, is saying things like, "Uh-oh, another girl pilot, things are getting dangerous out here," it's time to find a new school and CFI. Seriously, I had to listen to that. And sure, he was probably joking, but really? What kind of message does that send? And this was a school that listed very few women among its graduates. Fortunately I didn't give up, and found a school where female students were not only common, but respected. I quickly went from thinking maybe I wasn't cut out to be a pilot, to being a pilot. Make sure whoever is training you respects you.
 
To add my little bit. My dad stated flying at 66. It took him 18 months and 120 hours before he took his check ride. He passed on the first shot. Because of many factors he switched flight schools after about 60 hours. It was also around 35 hours when he first soloed. Fast forward about 1 year, and he now has his complex and hp sing offs, owns his own plane, and is well into his IFR training.
 
drotto said:
To add my little bit. My dad stated flying at 66. It took him 18 months and 120 hours before he took his check ride. He passed on the first shot. Because of many factors he switched flight schools after about 60 hours. It was also around 35 hours when he first soloed. Fast forward about 1 year, and he now has his complex and hp sing offs, owns his own plane, and is well into his IFR training.
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Nice, where in nj are you from?
 
I'm 59 and loving it. The mental challenge will keep you young. I'm diving into my IFR and finding it no more difficult to learn and memorize than when I was young.

Who cares how long it take if you're having fun? Keep in mind...some of the best pilots took longer than average to get there.

The real test is, do you like it and can you forgive yourself when you make mistakes? If so, do it, make those mistakes, and move on!
 
I re-read your post:

"I'm not always on the centerline..."
"... and I don't always have a stabilized approach...the times when I know I'm off I know to do a go around."
"My pattern work isn't stellar either, I'm off sometimes..."
"I'm not always parallel to the runway."

But that means that sometimes you ARE on the centerline, sometimes you DO have a stabilized approach and are aware when you don't and take corrective action, you can occasionally fly a decent pattern, and sometimes you ARE parallel. This means that you CAN do it. I think your (and every) CFI wants to see "safe", not "perfect" before soloing.
So my $.02 is similar to the other $.02's that have been suggested:
1) take a week or three off to clear your mind
2) most definitely try another instructor, but stick with it!
and
3) YOU CAN DO IT!
 
Thank God I got my PPL 2 months before I turned 60! Had I waited, I probably would have been too old!
 
Lumpy Landings said:
I was practicing slow flight prior to doing pattern work..I think my CFI expected me to be done with pattern work in about 10 hours...he does say in a polite and joking manner that I am a bit on the "slow learning" side, but it's not in a nasty or demeaning way, I do know this is taking me a long time...I guess I'm getting some answers I needed to hear...I think I probably have been delusional thinking I can do this. He does have other CFI's at the school but hasn't suggested I be critiqued by them..he's been a CFI for a long time and is very good...I do realize it's me...I just needed to hear input from others.
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"slow learner" comment? Ask him if he'd use that phrase with his mother.

He's been a CFI for a long time and doesn't involve another CFI? That's both his problem (possibly his ego?) and your's for not asking for another opinion at this point.

Delusional? Absolutely not. My Wednesday lunch bunch includes a 92 yr old pilot. About 35 of us flew to Wray, Colorado a month or so ago to celebrate two 90+ birthdays - both are still flying (quite well, too!) and one is still an active (and very safe) CFI.
 
Hey LL, you sound like I did just a couple of months ago. I'm 60 years old myself and just took the plunge into helicopter pilot training. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. I got to the point that I was dreading the drive from my office to the airport to catch a couple of hours of flight training. I was sure that I'd never be able to hover since I failed at it a hundred times. And talking on the radio (my airport is Class D) was my greatest fear. Half the time I couldn't understand what they were saying and sometimes I just froze. Everybody kept telling me - "keep going and one day everything will just click". They were so right! Now, I don't need a CFI in the chopper with me when I fly. There are plenty of young students that beat me hands down at every milestone, but I just kept throwing hours at it until I could pull off maneuvers without intellectualizing every move I made. There were times when I hated it and rationalized how I should pick another challenge. I'm glad I didn't. Calling you a slow learner is bad protocol for a CFI. Mine could always tell when I was getting close to the edge and knew exactly what kind of therapy I needed to keep me pumped. It sounds like you want this - DON'T QUIT!!
 
If your missing the centerline 'closer' your making progress. Remember, if it was easy, the sky's would be glutted with airplanes. :wink:
 
Lumpy Landings said:
Thank you for posting that!!!!
I really want to do this so I appreciate there is some hope for me....I'll get another CFI to critique me.
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Rather than getting another CFI to "critique" your flying, get him to analyze what you're doing wrong and/or why you're having difficulty flying a pattern and landing. Once that's figured out get him to find a way to teach you how to correct the problems.

IME there are a few basic types of CFIs. Some do little more than keep you from killing yourself (and him) and with very little in the way of "instruction" beyond a demonstration or two simply let you fumble around until you manage to teach yourself. Amazingly this approach actually works fairly well with some students and fortunately such instructors are fairly rare these days.

Then there's the CFI who actively teaches his students but tends to apply the same techniques to all of them without regard for whether or not said techniques fit the student's style of learning. IME this covers a rather large majority of CFIs today.

Finally, there are the CFIs who either are natural teachers (not to be confused with "natural pilots") or have put a lot of effort into learning the various ways that students acquire skills and knowledge and can adjust their teaching style to match.

Of course few CFIs fall entirely into one of those categories and most exhibit at least some ability to mesh with their students way of learning, but it's not at all uncommon for there to be a significant misalignment between student and instructor and it should fall on the shoulders of the CFI to fix that.

One big problem with all this is that most students don't have a clue how to assess their CFI's teaching abilities and tend to assume that their failure to learn is their own fault. It does help if the student is well aware of their preferred learning style and what kind of teaching does not work well for them but unless you're involved in education yourself this might not be something you've given much thought.

In any case I think you might find a discussion of teaching styles/methods with a couple of experienced CFIs to be a step in the right direction.
 
Whatever you do, DON'T QUIT!!! Your way past the "turning back point"! IMO if you quit you may regret it... As long as your having fun, have the funds, F' it!!!:goofy:
 
Lumpy Landings said:
My CFI is only a bit younger than me and a friend...my big fear is he might feel like he's in a difficult spot telling me to give this up.

Honestly, this is something I really want to do and it's a way I could see my daughter and granddaughter who live hundreds of miles away...I'm usually a fast learner...I don't understand why I'm having such trouble with flying.

I appreciate all your suggestions, and will chat with my CFI about having another one of his CFI's critique me...I feel like I'm in a tough spot with too because of our friendship.

Hate to think I might end up being a grounded grandma :(:(:(
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Hi there. First, I think you should change your screen name to Happy Landings. :wink2:

I can relate to what you're going through, both from the student's perspective and also from the instructor's perspective. If I had to guess, I'd say that the main problem here is not your skill but your friendship that's getting in the way of your progress. What's the old tried and true phrase, if you love something you have to let it go? I think your CFI, as your friend, should suggest that you fly with a different instructor to get another perspective -- immediately. Somehow the two of you have found yourselves in a rut and it's not healthy for either of you as pilots or as friends.

In my 8+ years of instructing, I've only had two instances where I determined that a student likely would never feel comfortable and safe flying by himself, at least not without spending many more hours and dollars on training. I should state, given the context of this thread, that I had no friendship or other personal relationship with either student outside of the training environment. In one case the student was in his late 70s but in the other case the student was in his 50s. Both were highly intelligent and otherwise mentally competent individuals, but for whatever reason they just did not possess the hand-eye coordination and multitasking ability that is required to be a safe and competent pilot. I had "the talk" with each of them and suggested that they each fly with a different instructor before calling it quits. They each decided on their own, after some soul searching, that moving on to a different recreational activity was in their best interest. The 50-something student actually returned to the airport several months later with his child, so that we could take the child up for a flight. He enjoyed being around airplanes just not flying them. So while it's possible that you may never feel comfortable in the left seat, the odds are that the problem is simply how you've been trained.

FWIW, I also once had a student who discovered during the first few hours of flight training that he was mildly dyslexic. In other areas of his daily life he just chalked it up to "bad with numbers" but in the airplane (headings and altitudes) it was more problematic. I had no experience working with individuals with learning disabilities, and wasn't quite sure how to help the student overcome his challenge, but after asking around the airport I found another instructor who did have such experience. The student flew with the other instructor and did a great job, and now is a happy private pilot!

Your friend/CFI, thinking he has your best interests at heart and with the best of intentions, may be waiting for your landings to be perfect because he has high expectations of you or he is worried about you getting into trouble. Your landings don't need to be perfect for you to solo, they just have to be safe. That is the whole point of the solo experience -- to allow you the opportunity to fly on your own in nice weather with light winds, so you can develop the confidence to move forward. You need to be able to demonstrate that you can make safe landings and go-arounds, and make good decisions in general. He may have a hard time separating his personal feelings about you from his professional judgement of your abilities.

Don't quit just yet. Give yourself the benefit of the doubt and try flying with a different, experienced instructor.

Good luck grandma!!!!
 
Excellent advice Meredith. It's posts/perspectives like yours that make forums an invaluable resource for student pilots like LL and myself. Experience-based, detailed and genuinely supportive. Great job.

Tony
 
No, she has posted since then. She just got her feathers ruffled.
 
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