When does Part 135 become Part 121?

SkyHog

SkyHog

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I'm curious, at what point does a company providing flight as a charter cross that line and become a part 121 operation?

For example, a company providing a company owned jet for travel to employees on a specific schedule, with prior reservation required....is that part 121?
 
There are scheduled 135 outfits. My first "airline" job was with one. And in your example, that doesn't even need to be 135. If it is a company plane and company employees traveling on company business, that can be done part 91.
 
SkyHog said:
For example, a company providing a company owned jet for travel to employees on a specific schedule, with prior reservation required....is that part 121?
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If I'm interpreting your question correctly that is Part 91.

Edit: Greg beat me to it.
 
SkyHog said:
I'm curious, at what point does a company providing flight as a charter cross that line and become a part 121 operation?
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I think it is strictly a question of the weight and number of seats of the aircraft used for scheduled service offered to members of the public.

At one point, many of the outfits that used 19 seaters in scheduled 'commuter' service were operating under 135.
 
Lotta stuff to go through to get this:
Sec. 121.1

Applicability.

This part prescribes rules governing--
(a) The domestic, flag, and supplemental operations of each person who holds or is required to hold an Air Carrier Certificate or Operating Certificate under part 119 of this chapter.
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Sec. 119.3

Definitions.

Domestic operation means any scheduled operation conducted by any person operating any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition at locations described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Locations:
(i) Between any points within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia; or
(ii) Operations solely within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia; or
(iii) Operations entirely within any State, territory, or possession of the United States; or
(iv) When specifically authorized by the Administrator, operations between any point within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia and any specifically authorized point located outside the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia.

Flag operation means any scheduled operation conducted by any person operating any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition at the locations described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Locations:
(i) Between any point within the State of Alaska or the State of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States and any point outside the State of Alaska or the State of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States, respectively; or
(ii) Between any point within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia and any point outside the 48 contiguous States of the United States and the District of Columbia.
(iii) Between any point outside the U.S. and another point outside the U.S.

Supplemental operation means any common carriage operation for compensation or hire conducted with any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition that is a type of operation described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 seats, excluding each crewmember seat;
(ii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds; or
(iii) Each propeller-powered airplane having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 seats and less than 31 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, that is also used in domestic or flag operations and that is so listed in the operations specifications as required by Sec. 119.49(a)(4) for those operations; or
(iv) Each turbojet powered airplane having a passenger seat configuration of 1 or more and less than 31 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, that is also used in domestic or flag operations and that is so listed in the operations specifications as required by Sec. 119.49(a)(4) for those operations.
(2) Types of operation:
(i) Operations for which the departure time, departure location, and arrival location are specifically negotiated with the customer or the customer's representative;
(ii) All-cargo operations; or
(iii) Passenger-carrying public charter operations conducted under part 380 of this title.
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You'll note that Part 121 kicks in sooner (vis a vis aircraft size) for scheduled than unscheduled ("supplemental") operations.
 
We run RJs and B1900 up and down the west coast on a regular schedule for an employee shuttle and do it under Part 91. I've heard we're replacing the ERJ-135s with 50 passenger jets next year. Still Part 91.
 
Ghery said:
We run RJs and B1900 up and down the west coast on a regular schedule for an employee shuttle and do it under Part 91. I've heard we're replacing the ERJ-135s with 50 passenger jets next year. Still Part 91.
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That's because the passengers aren't paying for the ride.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Which is exactly how Nick's example was worded.
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I think where Nick may be confused is that employees are not "chartering" their own company's airplane. Internally a company can set whatever schedule they want and it is not considered either 135 or 121 "scheduled service".
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Which is exactly how Nick's example was worded.
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...and the answer to his second question is "no." However, if the plane is big enough, they may have to operate it under Part 125 even if the passengers aren't paying.
Sec. 125.1

Applicability.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing the operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes which have a seating configuration of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more when common carriage is not involved.
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One assumes Ghery's RJ's are operated by a Part 121 operator using the planes for noncommercial purposes between Part 121 operations under one of the exceptions in paragraph (b).
(4) They are being operated under part 91 by an operator certificated to operate those airplanes under the rules of parts 121, 135, or 137 of this chapter,...
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Ron Levy said:
That's because the passengers aren't paying for the ride.
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Indeed. The operation of the system is funded by the head tax that all managers pay for their people that covers lights, floor space, etc. My boss does not see a bill when I ride the shuttle.

Greg Bockelman said:
Which is exactly how Nick's example was worded.
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That's what I thought, too.

Ron Levy said:
...and the answer to his second question is "no." However, if the plane is big enough, they may have to operate it under Part 125 even if the passengers aren't paying.
One assumes Ghery's RJ's are operated by a Part 121 operator using the planes for noncommercial purposes between Part 121 operations under one of the exceptions in paragraph (b).
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Possible. We have locked doors to the cockpit (even on the B-1900) and FAs on the ERJ-135s. And they do not use the N number on the radio (I've been in the pattern when the B-1900 has come into OLM).

In any case, I don't deal with TSA style silliness when I ride the shuttle, so to me it isn't pure Part 121. And I love it.
 
Basically it's when you add the 20th pax seat on a plane that isn't under Pt 91.
 
So, is Cape Air (which flies 402s) 121 or 135?
 
What reg controls shuttle operations to places that aren't there? Like the airplanes that depart LAS for some non-existent airports at non-existent places in Nevada?
 
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