When does it make sense to buy?

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skynewbie

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Looking for my first plane and after sifting through lots of planes with missing logs and past major damage history as well as calculating hangar, MX, insurance, fuel and purchase costs, I'm wondering when it becomes better to own then rent. Would love to hear experiences from owners. I'm looking at complex high performance single piston aircraft under 100K like Bonanza that will serve me well for advanced ratings and long XC trips average 500-2000nm along with the occasional $100 Hamburger run.
 
Can't speak to it financially. I had an emotional need to own. With that requirement, I then figured out how to make it work financially.
 
Never.

But I bought my plane before the ink was dry on my PPL. But it made no sense and still doesn't make any sense. But I'm happy and I like my plane. I'd just turn in my headset if I had to rent or join a club. Nothing about that interests me.
 
Thanks so far I've not flown tons of hours this year so will need to see my plans and budget. The flying clubs have good variety of complex high performance aircraft for rent.
 
skynewbie said:
I'm wondering when it becomes better to own then rent. .
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The common saying is that if it flies, floats, or f?¢§$, it is far more economical to rent.

The other side of that coin is in each of the above instances, exclusive rights to use may make it worth it.

:yes:

Jim
 
If you want it and you can afford it.
 
If you can afford it, buy it, I fly 60 hours a year, I was told it would not be cost effective to buy, I have never regretted it.

I know all about my plane, all maintenance, equipment and such. In your aircraft, you know it like you car, you can put your hands on anything and know how use it. Rentals are good, but each has different equipment installed, and it might be important to use it in a hurry. In older aircraft, the instruments might be in a different configuration, not the standard "TEE".

Don't do a joint ownership, some work out, but sooner or later most will be a problem with repair costs, family issues, death survivorship...too many problems waiting.

If you fly, get the aircraft you can afford and family can enjoy for a long time. There's nothing like pride in ownership.
 
Just don't fly 5 hours a year and let the plane turn into a rusted out piece of junk languishing on the ramp. That's not good for GA.
 
I chose to buy because I didn't want to worry about availability or taking the airplane on a week long trip. That and there are limited options for partnerships here.

Also, I don't trust people.

Financially speaking, it isn't justifiable at all. You either want it and can afford it or you don't.
 
You'll need to run the numbers for yourself. The planes available within 100 miles of me rent for $135/hour wet (for a Warrior or Skyhawk), plus $40 for the instructor (which is the same as hiring the instructor for your own plane.) If you calculate the hours you'll be flying, using the costs you've come up with as your best guess for ownership (fuel, oil changes, hangar, insurance, and annuals are a given; maintenance or surprises are unknowns but you can make your best guess), then you can make a rational choice.

The numbers will differ for everyone. Around here the hangars cost $150 per month, for instance, but there can be considerable waiting periods. In east/west coast airports with higher population density the price can be considerably higher. (Mogas is available here too, but I doubt that'll make a difference in your case unless you're considering an early Bonanza.)
 
There is a lot to be said about being able to go get in your own plane any time you like, being ultimately familiar with it and a certain sense of satisfaction that comes from ownership. Just do your homework up front and make sure it fits in your budget without causing your family any financial hardships. If so, go for it. Also, be realistic about what will meet you needs and desires without going beyond what you can afford.
 
Move to Chicago. I know of a great person who is looking for a potential partnership in a Bo or Deb.
:D
 
It's areal tough question . Like previously mentioned, if you can afford to buy, afford a nice hangar, concrete floor, etc. insurance and the possible "unknowns" like a surprise need for a major, etc. buy it! If your instrument rated and good at it, this would assist in more hours flown. I think over 100 hours per annum, it might start making sense but I'd rent if it's a good solid FBO with decent rental aircraft.
 
warthog1984 said:
Short version: 200hr/year is a good break-even point financially. 100hr/yr can be done if you're cheap.
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Where are you getting those numbers???

100 hrs per year has been the traditionally accepted break even point. Depending on the airplane and a lot of other factors, you may break even a little lower or more likely a little higher, but unless it is a maintenance pig, you shouldn't need 200 hrs to break even.

My 170 was break even around 110 hrs per year and I am hardly 'cheap'.
 
As others have said, it is extraordinarily difficult to justify buying a plane through any realistic economic analysis. I wound up justifying the 2 purchases I've made by deciding I needed to own planes that just weren't available on the rental market. One was a Pitts S2A, and my current toy is a Maule. I use the Maule for back country flying, an activity not allowed by any club or FBO I've ever visited. So figure out what you can afford for a purchase cost, what you can cover on terms of operating costs (multiply that by 1.5) and then find a way to make your dreams come true.
 
I have a Mooney, which matches your requirements, so I think this is probably relevant to your interests. :) Instead of money do it like this... It's how I convinced myself to buy.

Come up with half a dozen trips (single or recurring, ideally both) that you'd like to do. Then try scheduling them at the place you'd rent from. You don't have to actually put yourself on the schedule, but when it occurs to you to do the trip LOOK at the schedule and see if you could have blocked out the plane for the time you wanted.

For example:

* On a Thursday I looked at the weather and decided a trip to Orlando (500nm) would be fun. Left the next day, stayed the weekend.

* Last weekend, flew to parents house (200nm) had lunch, flew back same day. Why that day? Because. :)

* Few to six flags a few weeks ago (KFTY). Stayed the night, came home. Because it was a nice weekend and I was bored.

etc.

Now. Here's the fun part. When the time comes to take the trip, and the weather would be better if you waited a day, look at the schedule again and see if you can.

When you get frustrated enough, go buy your own plane.
 
Why marry if on a 10 year timeframe, hookers would be so much cheaper.

Same thing, really :) .
 
Make sense, meh it's hard to make it ever make it make sense shy of the plane making money.

When to buy vs rent, my main reason to push people that way is

A) no one rents the type of plane you want to fly
B) you make lots of overnight/vacation flight
C) you're going to buy low, build hours and flip the plane

Also if you want something like a 100k bo, you might do well to look at the experimentals if you don't need the extra seats, you can get MUCH more plane for the money with a lance or glass or yak
 
When does it make sense to buy a boat or motorcycle or horse or hot rod or .....
 
For me, I don't know that I can ever make it make sense to own. Where I am, there's relative high availability of planes, of course, they're largely 172s. But with maintenance, parking, etc, I just cannot get the numbers to work.

The hard part too...is that renting allows me to take a 152 for pattern work or an Archer when I'm going somewhere with the family. I want to own...I just am going to have to accept that it's not for the financial benefits of ownership, and break even wise, I think it depends a lot on tiedown vs. hangar, BUT I think it's closer to 150 hrs or so to break even.
 
Agree that it really comes down to an emotional decision unless you own a business that would provide cost savings. I'm finishing my complex and high performance checkouts then will look for a plane. The waiting list for a hangar at KLVK is over a year long and leaving a plane outside is not my cup of tea. Plus once I've built up some retract time and my instrument rating then insurance will be way less. Insurance for a low time pilot with no prior complex time is 4k a year versus 2k a year with experience.
 
If I could not afford a decent hanger rent I would not buy a plane. It's really tough on one and they go bad quite quickly. Look around your airport and inspect the ones outside for a year or two, or more.
 
Agree well since hangars in Palo Alto rent for $1000 a month, I'm waiting until I can move outside the Bay Area to get a hangar. Hangars are way cheaper in Sacramento and Chico. Today was fun since I had chance to fly a retract in left seat today to start my complex training. By the time I close on a Bonanza or Trinidad, insurance will be cheaper and the transition easier with the basics of landing gear and managing the constant speed prop :)
 
Bay Area pilots thinking of buying: I'm looking for three like minded pilots for an LLC to own a 2007 or 2008 Diamond DA40XLS to be based within 45 minutes drive time from KPAO. I currently own a 1/4 share in a 2007 XL in Dallas, TX. We are in our third year and it has been a dream come true. My employer has been acquired by a large company in Mt. View and I have been asked to relocate. So if I move, we will sell our share and try to do it again in the Bay Area.

Our current co-ownership arrangement was set up with the guidance of one of the best aviation attorneys in the country and I would do that again. As in my present situation, all co-owners (note the deliberate avoidance of the term "partners") would be expected to buy in with cash (est. $60k-$70k each) as there would be no lien on the airplane. So if you need to finance your capital share, you'll have to secure it with something other than the airplane. Fixed costs like hangar rent, insurance, and calendar based mx would be assessed monthly in equal shares. Variable costs like flight-hour based mx would be covered by a tach-hour dry rate assessment. We all pay for our own fuel/oil and at the end of each use the tanks are filled to a level agreed to by all the co-owners. Scheduling is done with Sporty's ShareZen online portal and each pilot is designated as "priority" for each week (Tue-Mon) in a regular rotation. If the priority pilot does not want to use the airplane on any day during their week, all are welcome to use it with coordination with the priority pilot. In the 2.5 years of my current ownership there have been no scheduling problems with four pilots flying 75-125 hours/yr each.

The DA40XLS is preferred for a significant number of reasons. We baked it off against C182 and SR20 and it won out on almost every front. Our present owners are all low time pilots, ranging from 250 to 400 hours each (all IR), so safety margin was weighed against performance and that calculus narrowed the field to those three models. The cost of ownership sealed the deal in favor of the DA40.

So if anyone has an interest in exploring whether the success of my experience in Texas can be repeated in the Bay Area sometime in the next 18 months, please PM me and we'll get the conversation rolling.
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
If I could not afford a decent hanger rent I would not buy a plane. It's really tough on one and they go bad quite quickly. Look around your airport and inspect the ones outside for a year or two, or more.
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Entirely environment dependent. There is plenty of rotting garbage in hangars too.....you just don't see them.
 
Personal flying is really just a life choice. The more I got into it, the more I wanted control of the aircraft and it's care and maintenance. I tried renting and flying clubs: they had their place and I did enjoy the flying club when I participated, but they had all these rules about plane use and maintenance and equipment in the plane wasn't where I wanted it. Don't get me wrong: planes were maintained well and they had descent equipment, just not what I wanted. When I got were I could afford my own plane, I got what I wanted to meet my mission requirements, and controlled equipment and maintenance. Also, I fly the same plane all the time; so, I really know the systems and equipment. When I take long trips, go over water, mountains and at night, not to mention in some challenging weather, I want a plane in which I have a LOT of confidence with systems and equipment I completely understand.
Hope it goes well for you. It's been a long trip for me and I rented and was in flying clubs for a long time before I purchased my own plane. (now on my fourth).

Best,

Dave
 
Thanks folks, the purchase search process takes longer than most realize. Fortunately the flying clubs at KPAO have excellent variety of aircraft types for rent. I'm doing my complex checkout in a Cessna 172RG this weekend then working on my high performance checkout which should help me once I find the right plane for me. I flew a Cirrus but still prefer traditional yoke and steam gauges over glass but that's because I'm old school. Not to mention glass equipped planes cost twice as much as steam gauge planes.
 
The day you can't rent a plane from the FBO because they're booked. The more you fly , the more it's worth owning.
 
+1 Ron, with many Bay Area flying clubs, few rent the retract aircraft so booking one is pretty easy. The trainer aircraft Cessna 172 and also planes like Cessna 182 and Cirrus however are very popular.
 
when you dont aant to deal with 2 hour block rentals and being on somebody else schedule. basically, when ypu want to go places.
 
bahama flier said:
Don't do a joint ownership, some work out, but sooner or later most will be a problem with repair costs, family issues, death survivorship...too many problems waiting.
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This is so wrong. Partnerships are like marriages. Some work; some don't, but to say that most will be a problem is excessively pessimistic.
 
Bill Watson said:
I had an emotional need to own. With that requirement.
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I totally get that. Perfectly worded (For me)

I am BEYOND fortunate, blessed, choose your phrase to have a father that got back into flying because I started and he bought a very nice plane.

I get to fly for $50 / hour anytime I want but I still have a 4 year plan to get into my own 182 or possibly an Arrow.


"Emotional need to own" that is what I have.
 
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