What's wrong with flight schools

[Alexb2000]

I was thinking about the AOPA $1 AVGAS in San Marcos the other day.

I thought well that might create a great opportunity to do some training and hopefully save some money on fuel. I searched around and found a flight school with a Baron based close to San Marcos. I called them about 3:30 on Monday, no answer. I leave a message that I am interested in some multi work. I get a call back Tuesday at 5:30pm from the chief pilot. I explain that I want to get a com. multi. and I wanted to use a Baron vs. something like a Seminole at other schools. I asked about buying a block of time dry and then just fueling up in San Marcos during training. I said I wanted to set a firm schedule for the last half of Oct. since I am going to be out of the country until then. I offered to pay now or do whatever to make sure this happens.

Sounds simple enough right?

The chief pilot says, "I know about San Marcos, but, well we don't really do block time. I'll check with the owner though".

OK.

Then he says, "I have a personal checkride planned for Oct. and that is more important than anything you might be doing. So I don't know about the availability of the Baron."

I say, "this should only take 3-4 days, seems like we could work it in there".

He says, "yeah, maybe, but like I said, I have a really important check ride and I need to get ready for it".

OK, got it.

Then he says, "Oh another thing, we might have trouble getting a multi-examiner in Oct. I think he said he was going on vacation but I'm not real sure".

Ummmm, OK, well if the ride was the first couple of days of Nov. that would probably work.

He says, "yeah maybe, I probably need to call another instructor and see if they can work you in, since I'm going to be pretty busy. I'll call you back and let you know about the other instructor and block time".

OK

No response as of Thursday 10:00am.

Doesn't really matter I wouldn't use this outfit if they had the only twin in the state. It's hard to relate verbal attitude in written form, but let's just say it was obvious this guy didn't give a S about anything other than his personal checkride.

It's funny how much complaining I hear about GA business' struggling, etc. and this is the way they treat what should have been a slam dunk customer. Anyway, its fun to rant, but also frustrating that this is the way a new potential pilot might be treated when they call for training. One of the great problems holding back GA IMO.

 

[Archammer]

Well that is just sad. Hopefully that is an isolated incident and not the "norm". If you end up not having much luck with other places, why don't you just go do your multi training at the Skyport?

Just talk to John E. or Roger S. and you can just get your time in their Piper.

 

[frfly172]

most schools are begging for multi students,sorry about the attitude,aviation has enough problems. try another school ,guess you will have to settle for a piper.

 

[AggieMike88]

Sounds like the chief is paid on a set salary he is comfortable with, and is not provided any sort of incentive to recruit new students.

If you do the training down there, you might go by the school you called and find the owner. Ask him if he was aware that you were ready to hand over a nice sum of money to him and if he was also aware that his chief pilot essentially said he didn't want the money

I think that offering all of the employees at the school or FBO a recruiting bonus would be a way to stop the attitude you encountered. Give them something like $50 or $100 when the student signs up for a pre-paid block of time, and then something additional when the student completes training (and had spent gobs more money).

Turn the entire staff into a referral machine.

 

[rbridges]

wow. I was fairly stressed about my instrument checkride, but I still prepared for it outside of my work. I guess if I were salaried, I may have taken some leave, but I don't make money unless I work.

 

[Ted]

I've found this same sort of problem with many instructors. They try to talk you out of it and make them sound important.

Too bad I don't still have the Aztec, I'd have been glad to do your multi in it.

 

[Alexb2000]

It kind of blows my mind that ALL the schools around San Marcos aren't running specials to bring in the students. I don't need a commercial multi, but I thought why not, it might be fun. The only way I'll fly down there and stay in a hotel is if I get a deal that gives me the fuel advantage. The other bonus was building some time in a type that I actually would own. Regardless, if they aren't smart enough to take advantage of a once in a lifetime AOPA thing then I don't know.

I told this guy a couple of times that there had to be a reason to come, otherwise I can get the rating at KADS at my home FBO.

He said, "yeah, but my checkride....".:wink2:

 

[wabower]

Aviation businesses have historically been able to get away with "the customer is always last" mentality, and you unfortunately encountered one of them that think it's still true. Over time their attitude will change or somebody will change the locks on their door.

 

[murphey]

There are times, all too frequently, that I really want to run a flight school. Both my parents were in sales (real estate & autos/trucks) Altho I'm an engineer, I'm often one of the "customer-facing" team (I really hate that term) because I understand how to listen to customers, and how to present our recommended solutions to them.

First thing I'd do is always be in the office, always available to anyone who walks in wanting to know about flying, and always keep on top of current student progress. Now, many of you may say monitoring student progress is the responsibility of the Chief Pilot. Wrong - my company, my responsibility. The CP is responsible for the technical progress of the student, but the owner is responsible to paying attention to the Customer. As I tried to explain to a CFI many years ago, I may be a student pilot, but more important, I'm the Customer. And aviation lives & dies by word of mouth these days.

Oddly enough, a close friend and his wife own a flight school in Florida, and he keeps asking me to move there and run the school. But trading Colorado for Florida (and the humidity, storms, bugs, etc?) aint gonna happen.

 

[Ted]

Aviation businesses have historically been able to get away with "the customer is always last" mentality, and you unfortunately encountered one of them that think it's still true. Over time their attitude will change or somebody will change the locks on their door.

That might make it hard to complete his checkride.

 

[us AAirways]

I was thinking about the AOPA $1 AVGAS in San Marcos the other day.

I thought well that might create a great opportunity to do some training and hopefully save some money on fuel. I searched around and found a flight school with a Baron based close to San Marcos. I called them about 3:30 on Monday, no answer. I leave a message that I am interested in some multi work. I get a call back Tuesday at 5:30pm from the chief pilot. I explain that I want to get a com. multi. and I wanted to use a Baron vs. something like a Seminole at other schools. I asked about buying a block of time dry and then just fueling up in San Marcos during training. I said I wanted to set a firm schedule for the last half of Oct. since I am going to be out of the country until then. I offered to pay now or do whatever to make sure this happens.

Sounds simple enough right?

The chief pilot says, "I know about San Marcos, but, well we don't really do block time. I'll check with the owner though".

OK.

Then he says, "I have a personal checkride planned for Oct. and that is more important than anything you might be doing. So I don't know about the availability of the Baron."

I say, "this should only take 3-4 days, seems like we could work it in there".

He says, "yeah, maybe, but like I said, I have a really important check ride and I need to get ready for it".

OK, got it.

Then he says, "Oh another thing, we might have trouble getting a multi-examiner in Oct. I think he said he was going on vacation but I'm not real sure".

Ummmm, OK, well if the ride was the first couple of days of Nov. that would probably work.

He says, "yeah maybe, I probably need to call another instructor and see if they can work you in, since I'm going to be pretty busy. I'll call you back and let you know about the other instructor and block time".

OK

No response as of Thursday 10:00am.

Doesn't really matter I wouldn't use this outfit if they had the only twin in the state. It's hard to relate verbal attitude in written form, but let's just say it was obvious this guy didn't give a S about anything other than his personal checkride.

It's funny how much complaining I hear about GA business' struggling, etc. and this is the way they treat what should have been a slam dunk customer. Anyway, its fun to rant, but also frustrating that this is the way a new potential pilot might be treated when they call for training. One of the great problems holding back GA IMO.

Because the owners just expect the $$ to roll in with doing as little as possible for it.

 

[DavidWhite]

Well that is just sad. Hopefully that is an isolated incident and not the "norm". If you end up not having much luck with other places, why don't you just go do your multi training at the Skyport?

Just talk to John E. or Roger S. and you can just get your time in their Piper.

You should call John E. tell him Shane Schmidt and Dave White sent you. He'll either say "Come on down!" Or "I can't believe you associate with those guys."

 

[skidoo]

I recently made a trip to So Cal and parked at an FBO whose main focus is flight training. They were very helpful and courteous, but the thing that struck me the most, was clutter everywhere and all the parked planes were dirty. Not just dirty on the bellies, but all over. They had an airplane out front by the public street for display, effectively to market the school. But, it was really dirty as well. Probably hadn't been washed in years or even decades. It looked really cool otherwise.

I could only imagine how the business may improve if once in a while that display plane would be washed and polished up and had some clean looking airplanes in their fleet.

 

[Alexb2000]

In reading all these comments and considering this more, it really does boggle the mind. I estimate it would cost about $10k to do this. $350 per with instructor x 20-25 hours, hotel, examiner, etc.

What would all that do to effect my flying? Nothing. Like I said I don't need a comm multi for anything. I'm sure there are many other pilots out there who are not trying to go to the airlines in the same boat. They like me, might do this if they were incentivized to get off the couch, AND the process sounded stimulating. I can't believe this is a difficult concept.

So I guess I'll use that money to do..... Pretty much anything else.

 

[wabower]

In fairness to the guy at the school, I wouldn't have one of those jobs up my whatsis if I had room for Salt Lake City.

They gotta listen to more BS in one day than most people hear in a month. They should know to expect it, but there's no way to see it coming in advance.

I probably wouldn't let a phone call from some guy in Dallas interfere with my check ride either, if I thought I could parlay it into a new job.

There are times, all too frequently, that I really want to run a flight school. Both my parents were in sales (real estate & autos/trucks) Altho I'm an engineer, I'm often one of the "customer-facing" team (I really hate that term) because I understand how to listen to customers, and how to present our recommended solutions to them.

First thing I'd do is always be in the office, always available to anyone who walks in wanting to know about flying, and always keep on top of current student progress. Now, many of you may say monitoring student progress is the responsibility of the Chief Pilot. Wrong - my company, my responsibility. The CP is responsible for the technical progress of the student, but the owner is responsible to paying attention to the Customer. As I tried to explain to a CFI many years ago, I may be a student pilot, but more important, I'm the Customer. And aviation lives & dies by word of mouth these days.

Oddly enough, a close friend and his wife own a flight school in Florida, and he keeps asking me to move there and run the school. But trading Colorado for Florida (and the humidity, storms, bugs, etc?) aint gonna happen.

 

[midlifeflyer]

FBOs have been historically poorly run from a business standpoint. There's the apocryphal story of the woman who walks into an FBO. Plenty of folks around but not one turns to her and says, "May I help you?"

Finally, the doctor leaves, climbs into her Mercedes and heads down to the shore where she buys a yacht and learns to sail it.

 

[Alexb2000]

In fairness to the guy at the school, I wouldn't have one of those jobs up my whatsis if I had room for Salt Lake City.

They gotta listen to more BS in one day than most people hear in a month. They should know to expect it, but there's no way to see it coming in advance.

I probably wouldn't let a phone call from some guy in Dallas interfere with my check ride either, if I thought I could parlay it into a new job.

I bet he has his American Eagle uniform all ironed with new epaulettes and he's ready to go right now.

 

[wabower]

Oh, wait. The only jobs that are worse for BS than flight school are charter booking agent and maybe the sales department at a jet brokerage.

 

[Shepherd]

In March of 2012, after a 40 year layoff, I was able to start flying again. As soon as I found out I was cleared to fly, I immediately drove to POU and the big flight school there.
In the interests of full disclosure, I am a pastor, I was in uniform, I was (at the time) 62 years old, balding, a 20 lbs overweight. It's a long time since I've had "the look of eagles" about me", but 40 years ago, I was a card carrying killer. USAF.
I walked in the door walked up to the twenty-something kids (guy and gal) behind the counter and told them I needed a plane and an instructor.

They laughed at me.

Then they told me maybe I should find a safer hobby, like knitting, or stick to Bible studies. I thanked them for their time, went home, looked up flight schools, and called Arrow at DXR. Less than an hour later I was in an airplane. I fly an average of 4 hours a week, every week, and I'm having the time of my life. I rent, by the way. (IBM was very, very good to me before I became a pastor.)
So, big box FBO\flight school, shame on you.
An interesting side note: This summer I flew into 1B1 (Columbia County) and who is standing in the FBO, but the OWNER of the big box FBO. I related my story to her, and she was all "eh, who cares". Then I told her how much I fly and the calculator started and all of a sudden you could see the numbers pop into her head and the big red "No Sale" sign. Then the cursing and apologies started.
"As ye sow, so shall ye reap" isn't just a churchism, it's a fact of life.
As I fly around, I discover there are a lot of flight schools with serious attitude problems. They need to get over themselves and lose the "we're superior cool because we're pilots, and you're not" attitude. It's chasing people away.

Glenn

 

[nosehair]

On the other side of the coin..., and just to shine in some light from a different perspective, ..sometimes a small mom 'n pop school is more interested and deeply involved in training than in making money. They don't march to the beat of money making, and sometimes may appear to not care about new business, but the fact is they are too busy with current students.

Did you ever work somewhere that was so focused on internal excellence that you didn't have to jump when an outsider dropped in and expected to be attended to? Just because he had money ? When money is not your focus?

May not be many, but there are some.

 

[jordane93]

this is a sad story. so far all of my flights schools (3) have been more than accomidating. the flight instructors were top notch, staff/desk people showed that they actually cared, and their number one priority was safety.

 

[Kelvin]

I had this experience in 1984 trying to buy a bass amp from Edwards Music.

The two guys there were watching a tennis match that was much more interesting than the 2 grand I had burning a hole in my pocket.

I plundered around the combos and the heads and cabinet for about 15 minutes and just gave up and started towards the door. About the time my arms straightened out on the door, they became interested. I pulled out the wad from my shirt pocket and told them that I was going next door to Parker Baldwins to buy a bass amp. And I did.

****ed them both off....but I could have cared less.

Those guys have since become my competition in certain markets and I still enjoy clouding up and raining on them...

Game, Set, Match!

In March of 2012, after a 40 year layoff, I was able to start flying again. As soon as I found out I was cleared to fly, I immediately drove to POU and the big flight school there.
In the interests of full disclosure, I am a pastor, I was in uniform, I was (at the time) 62 years old, balding, a 20 lbs overweight. It's a long time since I've had "the look of eagles" about me", but 40 years ago, I was a card carrying killer. USAF.
I walked in the door walked up to the twenty-something kids (guy and gal) behind the counter and told them I needed a plane and an instructor.

They laughed at me.

Then they told me maybe I should find a safer hobby, like knitting, or stick to Bible studies. I thanked them for their time, went home, looked up flight schools, and called Arrow at DXR. Less than an hour later I was in an airplane. I fly an average of 4 hours a week, every week, and I'm having the time of my life. I rent, by the way. (IBM was very, very good to me before I became a pastor.)
So, big box FBO\flight school, shame on you.
An interesting side note: This summer I flew into 1B1 (Columbia County) and who is standing in the FBO, but the OWNER of the big box FBO. I related my story to her, and she was all "eh, who cares". Then I told her how much I fly and the calculator started and all of a sudden you could see the numbers pop into her head and the big red "No Sale" sign. Then the cursing and apologies started.
"As ye sow, so shall ye reap" isn't just a churchism, it's a fact of life.
As I fly around, I discover there are a lot of flight schools with serious attitude problems. They need to get over themselves and lose the "we're superior cool because we're pilots, and you're not" attitude. It's chasing people away.

Glenn

 

[weilke]

There are times, all too frequently, that I really want to run a flight school. Both my parents were in sales (real estate & autos/trucks) Altho I'm an engineer, I'm often one of the "customer-facing" team (I really hate that term) because I understand how to listen to customers, and how to present our recommended solutions to them.

Knock yourself out. As aviation businesses go, the entry barriers are the lowest for a part 61 flight school. Being a CFI is actually a hindrance to running a flight-school as you will be tempted to sit in the plane instructing rather than focussing on what counts: bringing in paying customers.
You dont even need to own a plane or have much capital to get started. Leasebacks are available if you go looking for them, even the soda machine will be provided by the local Pepsi distributor. Despite all the moaning, airports like flight-schools. They buy fuel and create lots of 'movements' that are beneficial when it comes time to put in for money out of AIP and state aeronautics grants.
You don't have to sit in the office all day, but you need to have someone who is knowledgeable and friendly who mans (womans) the front desk.

The one thing that will make or break you is how you get your maintenance done. More important than the CFI ticket is having an iron grip on your maintenance cost, preferably with a in-house A&P.

The downside to the low entry requirements is that there is no intrinsic value to a flight school as a business and the option to 'build it and sell it' is not really there.

 

[iRyan]

I encountered the same problem trying to finish up my cfi. I searched for schools that claimed to train a lot of cfi students an it was very difficult to get a call returned. When I spoke to a school in Iowa, I was ready to pay for the course, yet no one ever returned my call. Business must be great to turn down 20 hours of rental time plus ground school. I must be in the wrong business.

 

[Alexb2000]

On the other side of the coin..., and just to shine in some light from a different perspective, ..sometimes a small mom 'n pop school is more interested and deeply involved in training than in making money. They don't march to the beat of money making, and sometimes may appear to not care about new business, but the fact is they are too busy with current students.

Did you ever work somewhere that was so focused on internal excellence that you didn't have to jump when an outsider dropped in and expected to be attended to? Just because he had money ? When money is not your focus?

May not be many, but there are some.

I wouldn't disagree, but a business that isn't focused on money is not a business just someones hobby (which is fine). Unfortunately, inevitably, one day they wake-up and say, "Screw this, we're working our tails off for free. Let's close the doors and take the Winnebago down to Florida".

I believe that's why they are so hard to find.

 

[warthog1984]

Did you ever work somewhere that was so focused on internal excellence that you didn't have to jump when an outsider dropped in and expected to be attended to?

That's not "internal excellence", that's s$!&.

Reputation happens. Unless you are in temp crisis mode (and it's usually very obvious when you walk in), nobody is "too busy" for an initial interaction and taking down basic customer requirements. Even if all you do is a referral to the place down the street or setup a waiting list, do something!

Why? Because all the "insiders" you have were once "outsiders" themselves. And word gets around.

 

[asgcpa]

There is a new school that started at Ft Lauderdale Exec. Owner is a great guy. They have a Duchess. Please PM me if you want more info.

 

[Henning]

Sounds like the chief is paid on a set salary he is comfortable with, and is not provided any sort of incentive to recruit new students.

If you do the training down there, you might go by the school you called and find the owner. Ask him if he was aware that you were ready to hand over a nice sum of money to him and if he was also aware that his chief pilot essentially said he didn't want the money

I think that offering all of the employees at the school or FBO a recruiting bonus would be a way to stop the attitude you encountered. Give them something like $50 or $100 when the student signs up for a pre-paid block of time, and then something additional when the student completes training (and had spent gobs more money).

Turn the entire staff into a referral machine.

 

[weilke]

Next time I want someone to buzz off because I can't be bothered, I'll just explain it with my 'internal excellence' .

 

[N2124v]

Knock yourself out. As aviation businesses go, the entry barriers are the lowest for a part 61 flight school. Being a CFI is actually a hindrance to running a flight-school as you will be tempted to sit in the plane instructing rather than focussing on what counts: bringing in paying customers.
You dont even need to own a plane or have much capital to get started. Leasebacks are available if you go looking for them, even the soda machine will be provided by the local Pepsi distributor. Despite all the moaning, airports like flight-schools. They buy fuel and create lots of 'movements' that are beneficial when it comes time to put in for money out of AIP and state aeronautics grants.
You don't have to sit in the office all day, but you need to have someone who is knowledgeable and friendly who mans (womans) the front desk.

The one thing that will make or break you is how you get your maintenance done. More important than the CFI ticket is having an iron grip on your maintenance cost, preferably with a in-house A&P.

The downside to the low entry requirements is that there is no intrinsic value to a flight school as a business and the option to 'build it and sell it' is not really there.

As someone who went down this path I can tell you it was one of the most rewarding ventures I have ever undertaken. I was fortunate enough to have great A&P's next door and a supportive FBO on the fuel side. The only thing that you have to keep in mind is that insurance will make or break you. I had two renters do stupid things with airplanes in one year (one ran a 172 out of gas, the other started a new 172 (less than 200hrs total time) with a tow bar attached) and insurance rates went up four fold. At that point it was time to say good bye.