It makes more sense to recycle and reforge than to recondition if you have to do a lot of welding.
What's the history of Prop Logs
- Thread starter Jaybird180
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It makes more sense to recycle and reforge than to recondition if you have to do a lot of welding.
bnt83
Final Approach
They are stepping sideways.
This is almost as bad as asking for overhauled avionics or gyros when there really isn't any such thing depending on the manufacturer.
If there is no overhaul instructions, I'd call it repaired.
For instance: I did NOT overhaul this valve, just repaired it. Many carelessly use "overhaul" to describe many things.
RotorAndWing
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Did they tell you "they" want you to have a separate logbook for your prop?
timwinters
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They said they recommend it because, as Henning pointed out, it can go in a separate direction from the airplane.
But...that it is part 91 afterall...
RotorAndWing
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Agreed, it's a recommendation, nothing more.
![brian]](/community/data/avatars/m/21/21096.jpg?1456258959){kind=avatar}
brian]
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Depends on the prop. Looks like I'll have the need to buy a beech 88" electric prop this week (ugh). Lots of things are measured, but one is the amount of "meat" left on the prop - that is how much has been ground off to make it balance, not vibrate, etc.
Learning WAY more about old props right now than I care to. As a buyer, I'm really glad all the log information for the prop is a separate log book..
brian]
Cleared for Takeoff
Actually, I have the opposite opinion. I really like the way Lew G. puts it in his book (E Series Bonanza - owning and maintaining a classic): you either like the old prop for what it is, or switch. (There are down sides to the Hartzell - but it is easy to argue one over the other.)
Personally, I like the old prop - simple to operate/maintain, no ADs - just grease. But I also like keeping the old bird in what I call "classic condition" - I even like the old piano key "art deco" style panel. I have an oldie and I'm not really interested in making it look and fly like a new one. Yep, I'm weird.
Don't get me wrong, if I regularly flew IFR, I would want a traditional "blue knob", but I would want something more like a 36 as well. (At some point, I'm likely to get into a partnership on a really nice 36 or a 55 - but not ready yet.)
Anyway - thread drift - sorry - but I can say for sure that I like the prop log being separate..
brian];1589205 said:
No ADs is what the electric prop guys always hang their hat on yet they require parts and attention that are hard to find, like you're finding out. The Hartzell MV props have no ADs and work. Again, they're the most maintenance free option for the old Bonanzas.
To bring this back to topic, if you send in the new prop you buy to be inspected or overhauled odds are decent that you'll end up with a logbook whether it had one before or not.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Electric prop?
poadeleted20
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Oh, horsepuckey. They've said in writing in several places that they want it, and I'm pretty sure you can't find any written FAA guidance which says they want it any other way. What more do you want? Sheesh.
It's most definitely not acceptable to put them all in one book if the pieces are no longer attached to the same aircraft and the book is no longer available for the aircraft to which they are now attached. And that's why the FAA wants them kept in a form allowing the records to go with the item when it changes aircraft.
poadeleted20
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IOW, as I said originally, that's how they want it done, not to be confused with "that's how they require it be done".
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RotorAndWing
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Again Ron, what the FAA wants and what is in the regulations are two different items. In this case, the regulations trump AC's.
Please show us where in the regulations that it is a requirement to separate the records.
Again, please show us in the regulations that state I'm not allowed to use a single record to record all aircraft records?
Here's an Advisory Circular for your Ron AC43-9C .
Please read 5. Maintenance Records Requirements and go down to paragraph "C". Read the second sentence.
c: Section 91.417(a)(l). Requires a record of maintenance, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. This does not require separate or individual records for each of these items. It does require the information specified in sections 91.417(a)(1) through 91.417(a)(2)(vi) to be kept for each item as appropriate. As practical matter, many owners and operators find it advantageous to keep separate or individual records since it facilitates transfer of the record with the item when ownership changes.
Secti,on 91.417(a)(1) has no counterpart in section 43.9 or section 43.11.
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poadeleted20
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You're the only one talking about regulations. I most certainly never said anything at all about the regulations (no matter how much you distort what I said in your indirect quotations), only what the FAA wants, and as you well know having worked there, the two are not always the same. In this case, what they want is very clearly stated in the various publications and their answers to queries like Tim's, so I stand by exactly what I said regardless of your discussion of the regulations -- and you certainly agreed above that this is what the FAA "recommends". Or are you saying that they are recommending something other than what they want? I would find that a bit difficult to believe even from the FAA.Again Ron, what the FAA wants and what is in the regulations are two different items. In this case, the regulations trump AC's.
Please show us where in the regulations that it is a requirement to separate the records.
Again, please show us in the regulations that state I'm not allowed to use a single record to record all aircraft records?
Here's an Advisory Circular for your Ron AC43-9C .
Please read 5. Maintenance Records Requirements and go down to paragraph "C". Read the second sentence.
RotorAndWing
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You're twisting Ron (what's new?
) My point is very succinct: The regulations are very clear on this subject, and the regulations are controlling. The FAA can want someone to accomplish a particular task (separate logbook), but without an applicable regulation to back up that want, well, now it only becomes a suggestion, nothing more.
brian]
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Do a Google search for beech electric propeller. Efficient design but made obsolete when later GA engines were designed to support a hydraulic propeller...
Tom-D
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91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:
(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include—
How would you comply with 91.419 with out a separate records when you sell the prop?
Want to tear out a few pages of the E/AF record ?
Tom-D
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they are module engines, each module has its own record. which is added to or removed from the binder as they are removed and moved to another engine.
Tom-D
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How many owners have had their props overhauled? Did they come back with a log book all their own?
Policy does not always reflect FAR rules. We who actually work in GA have known that for a long time. FAA does not require operators to have separate prop logs FAR 91.417 says we must have a record, and that record must be transferred to the new owner, so that in common sense requires us to have a separate one.
Every single aircraft I have completed annuals on in the past 10 years has its own prop log. So saying most GA single engine aircraft don't have separate prop logs is simply a very uninformed personal opinion.
Policy does not always reflect FAR rules. We who actually work in GA have known that for a long time. FAA does not require operators to have separate prop logs FAR 91.417 says we must have a record, and that record must be transferred to the new owner, so that in common sense requires us to have a separate one.
Every single aircraft I have completed annuals on in the past 10 years has its own prop log. So saying most GA single engine aircraft don't have separate prop logs is simply a very uninformed personal opinion.
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Tom-D
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Some one is AFUed,
Attachments
weirdjim
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No, Tom, I wouldn't. BUt this is an honest question. Each radio, each turnandbank, each magneto, all are appliances. As are props. Does each APPLIANCE need a separate logbook. It seems from your argument that it does.
Again, I'm not being argumentative, but I need an honest answer. How deep into the "appliance" pool do you step?
Thanks,
Jim
If you use a three ring binder you can pull the pages quite easily.
RotorAndWing
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The regulations state "maintenance record". The regulation does not specify the type of record, only the content. For that matter one could cut up Piggly Wiggly grocery sacks and staple them together and write the records out.
The above regulation does not say you need separate logbooks, it only states you need desperate records, which could be kept in a loose leaf binder.
Good question. Using the "logic" by a few here they would need logbooks for each magneto, the alternator, the starter, the carburetor, etc. because the regulation states "for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. "
The misunderstanding is what is a record? The regulations leave the type of record (log book, multiple file, single file, etc) up to the owner. Would we really want the FAA to specify the exact type of book that must be used for each record?
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poadeleted20
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No, you're the one doing that by turning "wants" into "requires".You're twisting Ron (what's new?
I'm glad you finally agree with exactly what I said originally (and nothing more than what I said originally) -- they want it done that way. Thank you.
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poadeleted20
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The FAA has never to my knowledge said they want individual records for anything other than airframe, engine, and prop, but they have clearly stated in writing they do want those.
RotorAndWing
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I'm not of a contrary opinion. I've seen all sorts of record systems, all legal and acceptable.
RotorAndWing
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Can you write those individual records out on one page and would it meet the intent of the regulation (91.417 Maintenance records) ?
For those who are having a difficult time grasping this the problem I see is the misunderstanding of what constitutes a "maintenance record". We have all seen the classic "log books" over the years and have come to accept that this is the norm, or "requirement".
A "record" can be recorded in a logbook, a loose leaf binder, a "Hello Kitty" composition binder, the backs of grocery sacks, etc.
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bnt83
Final Approach
Then you have CAMP, Cescom, etc etc tracking services that have thousands of individual task cards that are filled out and returned to the tracking service provider.
bnt83
Final Approach
Would an RVSM check go in the airframe or avionics book?
Jaybird180
Final Approach
That may be literal interpretation of the regulation, but it falls short on practicality. If those records are ever subpoenaed, how would it reflect on the owner/ maintainer? Very poorly, I suspect.
So, I give you a point for pedantics. No points awarded for the argument with Ron. Ron is minus one point for arguing your pedantics. So R&W, I invite you to celebrate your victory. You won the internet, big guy.
RotorAndWing
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Tom-D
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The guidance I have been given over the years is this, If you must track time on any component it must be done on the maintenance record. or by directions given in FAR 39 compliance.
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I thought the three ring binder worked good. Things could go on pages and in sections as you please.
NavAir
Pre-takeoff checklist
The problem I have with three ring binders is that you can lose a page more easily than a bound "logbook". My aircraft came from the factory with 4 separate bound logs for airframe, engine, prop, and one titled "Record of Installations and Modifications".
Steve
True, thing is most people who use them also have the pages backed up digitally.
RotorAndWing
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These people have sold their service for years using a 3 ring binder type system.
http://www.adlog.com/