Whats the difference between Prohibited and Restricted airspace?

Ron Levy said:
Richmond VA Guard used to pull that duty some, but they got rid of their F-16's and now they're an associate unit for the 1st Wing at Langley in F-22's, and they don't waste F-22's on this work. I think the NJ Guard out of ACY gets some of this work -- they have a long history of air defense/intercept work dating back to Darts and Deuces.
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The 22's do occationally sit, but it really cramps their ability to produce jets - much more than a 4th gen squadron. All the short-notice taskings go to the AD F-15's at Langley.

Pretty much every CONUS unit gets pulled into that job at some point. When I was at Mountain Home, they pulled us out to sit alert/fly CAPs over camp david a few times.
 
Ron Levy said:
I know some USAF C-141 folks who did it, and they really regretted it. During a Red Flag mission in 1979, one of my Guard unit's RF-4C's had a "BLC Malfunction" (a real barn-burning, boldface, may-need-to-eject emergency) up in the area just north of there, and they were ordered to return to Nellis like 100 miles away (and maybe drop the jet anywhere along the way) rather than land at Groom Lake which they could see from where they were and be on the ground in five minutes instead of 20.:eek:
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I can see that because of what was going on at Groom in 1979.
 
EvilEagle said:
Going back to my original post - go through the MOA! I know I do when I'm flying GA. My point all along has been to encourage people to talk to the MOA controlling agency when transiting MOAs.
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That sounds way to reasonable and even handed.:lol:

JOOC, can I assume that you're flying with active transponders that would show up on my traffic detector when you're in a MOA? I know that it's typical for all but one aircraft in a formation to squawk standby, do you switch back to altitude (or whatever you call it on your gear) once you start maneuvering separately?
 
gismo said:
That sounds way to reasonable and even handed.:lol:

JOOC, can I assume that you're flying with active transponders that would show up on my traffic detector when you're in a MOA? I know that it's typical for all but one aircraft in a formation to squawk standby, do you switch back to altitude (or whatever you call it on your gear) once you start maneuvering separately?
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Yes, we are supposed to fly with transponders (incl altitude) when we are tactically maneuvering - in most cases. There are some specific missions we do with no transponder of any type on - and some people just forget to turn them on when they are supposed to. (that is not normal, but I'm guessing people do forget from time to time)

Since I've never flown with Mode S or TCAS - how fast is the update rate for that? If I'm going straight down at say 450 knots, will your display show my actual altitude?
 
EvilEagle said:
Yes, we are supposed to fly with transponders (incl altitude) when we are tactically maneuvering - in most cases. There are some specific missions we do with no transponder of any type on - and some people just forget to turn them on when they are supposed to. (that is not normal, but I'm guessing people do forget from time to time)

Since I've never flown with Mode S or TCAS - how fast is the update rate for that? If I'm going straight down at say 450 knots, will your display show my actual altitude?
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The update rate isn't published but I suspect it's in the 1-5 Hz range and to tell you the truth, I don't think I could maneuver to avoid you in a 45000 FPM dive on my position from 20,000-30,000 feet above me. That wouldn't take you more than 25-40 seconds and I couldn't get very far in that time (1-2 nm horizontally) so I'd have to figure out real quick exactly where your path would intersect mine. :yikes: Is this a typical maneuver in a MOA?

The TAS has certain criteria it uses to identify a threat, I wonder if the developers even considered the possibility of a vertical trajectory. Perhaps we can test that sometime:D.

But seriously, I wasn't thinking along the lines of avoidance via TAS, but rather just wondering if I could detect your presence in the area.
 
gismo said:
:yikes: Is this a typical maneuver in a MOA?
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Yes, this is a very typical maneuver in a MOA - depending on the mission we could be as high as 50k' and as low as 500' AGL in a matter of minutes.

For "dogfighting" (we call it BFM) we typicall start at either 18k' or 20k' and fight down to either a 5k' or 10k' floor (depending on airspace restrictions, traffic, wx, etc) These fights only last between 40 secs to 4 mins and we can be back up to altitude (or higher) several times in a fight. Airspeeds are usually less than 500 knots for most of the fighting, but not much less. This is one of the scary things about people in the MOA and us not knowing about it - we may be looking over our shoulder, 90 degrees nose low, 8 G's and 450 knots - we can't exactly clear in front of us when we're doing that. I've had a few close-ish calls because we didn't know someone was there - not always GA either.

Interesting points about the TAS - I've never flown with it so I was wondering how it would work. I think using it to see if we're in the area is a great technique to potentially avoid the "busy" part of an area. It's hard to say if we'll stay there, but it's a good place to start.
 
EvilEagle said:
This is one of the scary things about people in the MOA and us not knowing about it - we may be looking over our shoulder, 90 degrees nose low, 8 G's and 450 knots - we can't exactly clear in front of us when we're doing that. I've had a few close-ish calls because we didn't know someone was there - not always GA either.
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Back in the F-4 days, the WSO looked back and the pilot looked forward so 6 and 12 were both scanned in a fight. Now, with the single-seat F-15, when being chased, the pilot has to look back and can't clear forward. That's progress, I guess. :sigh:
 
Ron Levy said:
Back in the F-4 days, the WSO looked back and the pilot looked forward so 6 and 12 were both scanned in a fight. Now, with the single-seat F-15, when being chased, the pilot has to look back and can't clear forward. That's progress, I guess. :sigh:
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I've sat in an F-4 front seat - I don't think you could've checked 6 if you wanted to from that thing. It's hard enough in an Eagle.

We do pretty well, visual lookout is rarely - if ever - the reason for success or failure in the F-15. Just have to have a fast cross check and fly good formation. :yesnod:
 
EvilEagle said:
We do pretty well, visual lookout is rarely - if ever - the reason for success or failure in the F-15. Just have to have a fast cross check and fly good formation. :yesnod:
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Uh-huh. Someday over a beer, remind me to tell you about the very first F-15 vs F-14 mass gaggle dogfight in 1977, for which I had a front row seat. Very bad day for Eagles, and very quickly hushed up.
 
Ron Levy said:
Uh-huh. Someday over a beer, remind me to tell you about the very first F-15 vs F-14 mass gaggle dogfight in 1977, for which I had a front row seat. Very bad day for Eagles, and very quickly hushed up.
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I'll take you up on the beer! :yesnod:

I think the first day for any new airplane is like that - we were beating up on the Raptor pretty bad until they figured out how that thing works. Just part of the deal. I've fought F-14's - there's a reason we call them Tom-grapes! :rofl:
 
EvilEagle said:
I'll take you up on the beer! :yesnod:
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Cool. I'm guessin' based on the Pensacola address you're out of Eglin -- 33rd Wing still there?
I think the first day for any new airplane is like that
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They were equally new in 1977. But I know what you mean, because about 18 months later, I watched from an RF-4C as a squadron of Marine F-4's tore a big hole in squadron of F-15's at Red Flag by using a strategy which played to the Phantoms' strengths.
I've fought F-14's - there's a reason we call them Tom-grapes! :rofl:
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Many v. many ain't the same as 1 v 1 (this fight was 2 v 2 -- squadrons), and extra eyes in the jet can compensate for a lot of Ps in a big furball.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Cool. I'm guessin' based on the Pensacola address you're out of Eglin -- 33rd Wing still there?
They were equally new in 1977. But I know what you mean, because about 18 months later, I watched from an RF-4C as a squadron of Marine F-4's tore a big hole in squadron of F-15's at Red Flag by using a strategy which played to the Phantoms' strengths.
Many v. many ain't the same as 1 v 1 (this fight was 2 v 2 -- squadrons), and extra eyes in the jet can compensate for a lot of Ps in a big furball.
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My wife is an instructor at NAS Pcola, I'm an instructor at Tyndall. The 33rd FW closed last year. They are "technically" still open for the JSF, but they have a skeleton group and no jets yet.

I'm not talking many v many - I'm talking every fight I've ever done with the 14's. 1 vs 1, 1 vs 2, 2 vs 2, 4 vs 4 - I don't know how much its the jet limiting their capes or if all the guys I flew with were just at the bottom of the pile, but I would put that on about the same level as fighting F-4's or MiG 21's. It was just never a challenge... at all.

I've heard tons of stories from the old dudes that flew Eagles when they first came out - trying to develop new tactics, getting their asses kicked by F-4's. That's how a community grows up. Everyone goes through it. I can't imagine any current F-15 guys getting beat up on by an F-4 - when I've fought F-4's it was fun but it kinda felt like picking on the "slow" kids in high school. :devil:
 
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