What's the deal with Mooney at Airventure?

[Tantalum]

For some reason I wanted to see Mooney make a splash this year.

Same here. I was hopeful to see what they would bring. Their space was a disappointment. The Porsche they had there (while I get the heritage thing, etc.) just seemed out of place, and the free poster and free bike giveaway signs seemed a little low-rent. And while everyone at the Diamond, Cirrus, TBM, Pilatus tents were happy to just talk to you about anything, just to chat, the Mooney guys seemed remarkably off putting. Cessna I didn't see anyone who wasn't behind a desk and a science project "SkyCourier" poster inside the tent

Now if you look at Cirrus they have a lot more going on. I like both Aircraft but Cirrus marketing is running circles around other GA makers

Yep. They had a proper store that made you want to go in just to browse, if nothing else. They had way more there than just t-shirts.

On mooneyspace they’re saying the Mooney reps were being jerks.

\
Makes sense. I vaguely remember reading the same thing last year after EAA

The market has to be incredibly small for an $800K piston single...

People always say that.. but the market for a $400K piston single then seems even smaller. Yes, it's expensive, but honestly there are still a ton of rich people out there and people who like cool toys. You see plenty of expensive yachts in the marinas, plenty of private jets, crazy expensive housing, etc. And I know millennials like drones (and all the stereotypes) but there are still a lot of people out there with money, who like aviation, and who think tech things are cool. You can sell planes to these people, but they can't be a 1950s relic. The market is out there. People aren't buying the $400K piston singles (Archer, Skyhawk, etc.) and aren't buying the $250K LSAs not because of costs but because honestly those aircraft are either the same un-innovated 1950s design, are incredibly ugly, or are cramped and uncomfortable and don't add any opportunity value to the buyer


Total single engine piston deliveries in 2017: 936
Cirrus SR22, 22T: 309
Cirrus SR20: 46
Piper (all of them): 155
Bonanza: 13
Skyhawk: 129
Skylane: 46
206: 40
TTx: 23
Mooney (all of them): 7

**I really don't think it's cost. It's an easy thing to say "ahh,$800K!!" but if it was purely cost driven Cirrus would be in line with these others... but they're not, they're not even in the same league. And given the average cost of housing in NY, MA, CA, etc., the cost of a new airplane is not at all out of line of what a typical house costs. People can afford these things, they just aren't interested.

 

[Tantalum]

but with the fence around the booth

Marketing genius to put a wall up between you and the customer and put the entrance somewhere in the back. I get wanting to look exclusive, but when you only sell 7 items in a year you can't play that card yet

 

[FloridaPilot]

Same here. I was hopeful to see what they would bring. Their space was a disappointment. The Porsche they had there (while I get the heritage thing, etc.) just seemed out of place,.

I felt the same way. The first question I remember asking myself was: "Why is a Porsche sitting here"

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

^^ This. I walked by and would have kicked the tires, but with the fence around the booth, I assumed it was a Mooney VIP-only area and just passed on by.

Yeah, I thought about not walking in. I prepared myself to get “caught” and chastised for going in without credentials. Obviously nothing bad happened. But some are not as bold as me, or willing to take a risk, and the setup with the fence discouraged discovery. I wanted to sit in one but there was only one sales guy helping another guy in the other plane. No one came to see if I wanted to check it out. I snapped this and walked away...

 

[Grum.Man]

I know which one I would get...

 

[chartbundle]

I know which one I would get...

The one with Air Conditioning?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

the one with the chute....?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

The one with the sun shades that double as wings...

 

[CC268]

I know which one I would get...

Honestly when I sat in the new Cirrus and new Mooney at the Scottsdale Air Expo I thought to myself, “the Cirrus is so much nicer”. It’s not even a comparison

 

[aggie06]

I noticed the fence and an off putting sign saying something about VIPs only. I couldn’t figure out why a company selling airplanes would want to keep airplane people away. I will say that 2 years ago I ran into a real jackass Cirrus rep, but that didn’t happen again this year.

Mooney has always seemed a little too good for the common man at Oshkosh. They should combine their booth with the Bendix King booth.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

What is meijings interest in Mooney then? I would have guessed the same as cirrus capital ownership. Acquire moribund (read cheap to acquire to them) American assets in order to mine intellectual/technology property (to include engine tech in the case of tcm) in order to get ahead of the native pilot training demand for pilots in China. In the end the m10 didn't go forward, so now this company sits idle under their Chinese overlords. That's my theory anyways. Point being, I don't see Mooney being an in earnest actor in selling airplanes to americans. They re a storefront for an empty store that's in a completely different business these days. Can't really get upset at the token presence and behavior at fly ins, when it's merely reflective of that fact.

TCM has "engine tech"? It's more likely that you'll see it come from the new owners.

 

[Grum.Man]

The one with Air Conditioning?

They both have that..

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I know which one I would get...

Cirrus has no TPM controls, basically equivalent to automatic transmission on cars and the circuit breakers are in the footwell?
They made the interior look like a Honda Accord.

 

[CC268]

Cirrus has no TPM controls, basically equivalent to automatic transmission on cars and the circuit breakers are in the footwell?
They made the interior look like a Honda Accord.

Looks amazing to me

 

[Grum.Man]

Cirrus has no TPM controls, basically equivalent to automatic transmission on cars and the circuit breakers are in the footwell?
They made the interior look like a Honda Accord.

Are you implying those are negative attributes?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Are you implying those are negative attributes?

Yes
I want to control the airplane, which means controlling the engine (rpm, mixture...) and if I have a electrical problem, looking into footwell to check if a CB has tripped or trying find the one I want to pull sounds like a good way to lose control of the plane.

As a passenger I would prefer the Cirrus , although for that money I expect all leather seats.

 

[Stephen Shore]

Mooney was definitely set up like they wanted to filter the people coming in. Keep the riff raff out.

I sat in one at another Mooney display in Addison. Too narrow but good leg room.

The other big dissapointment at the show was Bendix King. I played with their supposed competitor to the Garmin GTN 750. It was a sad and bad joke

 

[CC268]

Don’t you worry Honeywell will make Bendix King great again. Gonna wipe Garmin completely off the map.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Anyone with experience in a Cirrus have any problems with glare, there is less overhang and the glass panels are tilted?

 

[tspear]

Anyone with experience in a Cirrus have any problems with glare, there is less overhang and the glass panels are tilted?

Nope, never an issue.

Tim

 

[TheGolfPilot]

I’ve been wanting a Mooney for a while, and a few months away from spending a pretty penny as a move is prompting the need for a good plane.

The pathetic hospitality from the staff at Mooney and Diamond have ruled both of those brands out. I guess they only want to sell planes to guys that wear $300 jeans and j-crew button downs.

Now I have never been an experimental guy, but the Lancair Mako and their staff were very impressive. That was my personal “plane of the show”

Cirrus looked and felt like an Apple store, I thought that was funny!

 

[CC268]

I’ve been wanting a Mooney for a while, and a few months away from spending a pretty penny as a move is prompting the need for a good plane.

The pathetic hospitality from the staff at Mooney and Diamond have ruled both of those brands out. I guess they only want to sell planes to guys that wear $300 jeans and j-crew button downs.

Now I have never been an experimental guy, but the Lancair Mako and their staff were very impressive. That was my personal “plane of the show”

Cirrus looked and felt like an Apple store, I thought that was funny!

You should email Mooney and tell them your thoughts.

 

[Tantalum]

The pathetic hospitality from the staff at Mooney

Yeah.. they put off a very anti customer combative attitude. They don't do a great job of reaching across "party aisles" either.. I think at last year's show they had a big sign up "when you're ready to throw away the training wheels" <- implying that real planes are RG. If you're trying to pull buyers over a veiled insult is not the way to do it. That can work in some markets, but with a limited buyer pool where "every vote counts" there are better ways to market

Found it on the web:


**okay, when I'm ready for my training wheels to come off I'll downgrade to a smaller cabin, less G1000 integration, and no chute, plus the added cost and complexity of RG for a few extra knots at FL250 from a company that I have no idea if they'll be around next year. Sounds great!

 

[paflyer]

You should email Mooney and tell them your thoughts.

Based on what’s been said herein it will be placed in File 13.

 

[CC268]

Mooney sucks mannnnn

 

[Stephen Shore]

I’ve been wanting a Mooney for a while, and a few months away from spending a pretty penny as a move is prompting the need for a good plane.

The pathetic hospitality from the staff at Mooney and Diamond have ruled both of those brands out. I guess they only want to sell planes to guys that wear $300 jeans and j-crew button downs.

Now I have never been an experimental guy, but the Lancair Mako and their staff were very impressive. That was my personal “plane of the show”

Cirrus looked and felt like an Apple store, I thought that was funny!

Of all the new airplanes that I looked at closely at the show, I thought the Lancair Mako was the most impressive. That is a great airplane. And it is a bargain compared to anything else in the new airplane category.

And yes, the sales staff Manning the booth was very accommodating and helpful.

 

[FloridaPilot]

How things change here on POA.

Just a few years ago you couldn't say anything positive about Cirrus aircraft without someone saying how bad the aircraft is, now it seems like the opposite.

Comparing the Cirrus to an I-phone is SPOT on.

Yeah.. they put off a very anti customer combative attitude. They don't do a great job of reaching across "party aisles" either.. I think at last year's show they had a big sign up "when you're ready to throw away the training wheels" <- implying that real planes are RG.

Real airplanes ARE retractable gear

**okay, when I'm ready for my training wheels to come off I'll downgrade to a smaller cabin, less G1000 integration, and no chute, plus the added cost and complexity of RG for a few extra knots at FL250 from a company that I have no idea if they'll be around next year. Sounds great!

There is some truth to the not being around comment. I use to believe the retractable gear complexity myth too until I spoke to pilots with retractable gear airplane and maintenance guys, even twin engine pilots. The chute and the gear is pretty much a wash around the same price. Retractable gear you pay a little extra up front every year, Chute you pay a lot at the end of 10 years I've seen 15K to 20K for a parachute repack. Pick your poison!

 

[Tantalum]

Real airplanes ARE retractable gear

Real airplanes are:
-tail wheels
-cloth
-open cockpit
-have retractable gear
-have radial engines
-are steam gauge
.. etc., the list goes on. To me they're all "real" airplanes. When people say "well that's a real airplane" there's an implication that the other thing isn't a "real" airplane. I don't really know why that is.. On an RG you have one extra lever to pull and one more thing on a checklist.. but potential a whole host of problems if something in that component fails. I've never seen people struggle mastering the gear switch, but I've seen people fall behind a fast airplane and totally get lost in a G1000, 650, even a 430. I grant you, it would be really cool and make me feel like an airline guy to raise the gear.. but beyond that it doesn't really seem to add any modern value. Proof to that is the TTx and that some of the fastest planes out there are fixed gear.

Retractable gear you pay a little extra up front every year, Chute you pay a lot at the end of 10 years I've seen 15K to 20K for a parachute repack. Pick your poison!

A gear won't save your life when things go belly up.. it could however result (best case scenario) in an embarrassing story or (worst case scenario) total your plane, injure you, or even killing you if you have issues with it or forget to put it down. The chute.. that can save your life. I would always pick that poison

**I'm actually not anti legacy Mooney. They're a cool, well built sporty ride with a sharp ramp presence and good performance on miserly fuel burn. I was hoping to see a very fresh display and presence at EAA with their whole "new, we're back!" image. But they didn't deliver. I got a fenced off thing that you entered from the back with two planes, a Porsche, and unfriendly staff. The current company vision and management outset has totally lost any identity and control of what they are, or who they want to be. It's too bad.. cool to have some variety at our GA airports

 

[slacktide]

I just stepped over the fence. As an engineer, I did appreciate the uncovered forward fuselage they had on display, never have had that view of a Mooney before.

 

[RudyP]

Yes
I want to control the airplane, which means controlling the engine (rpm, mixture...) and if I have a electrical problem, looking into footwell to check if a CB has tripped or trying find the one I want to pull sounds like a good way to lose control of the plane.

As a passenger I would prefer the Cirrus , although for that money I expect all leather seats.

Look closer and you will see a mixture knob to the right of the throttle. Also the throttle control mixes prop and throttle but you can definitely set both MP and RPM exactly where you want them with the single lever. It is fairly elegant actually. Besides all that, why do you really want a mixture control if the alternative was a truly modern FADEC system (which isn't available so that's more of a rhetorical question) - would you prefer to have a mixture control in your car too? BTW - I say this as someone who has always driven manual transmission cars and I hate automatics of any sort. But I don't need a mixture control to feel like I'm driving a "Real car" and I don't need a separate blue knob to feel like I'm flying a "real plane"

Leather seats are standard. Alcantara is a premium option. So good news for you, you can get the full leather seats and save a few $$$

 

[Zeldman]

I just stepped over the fence.

Finally. I was wondering if anyone here actually knew what to do with a fence....

 

[FloridaPilot]

Real airplanes are:
-tail wheels
-cloth
-open cockpit
-have retractable gear
-have radial engines
-are steam gauge
.. etc., the list goes on. To me they're all "real" airplanes. When people say "well that's a real airplane" there's an implication that the other thing isn't a "real" airplane. I don't really know why that is.. On an RG you have one extra lever to pull and one more thing on a checklist.. but potential a whole host of problems if something in that component fails. I've never seen people struggle mastering the gear switch, but I've seen people fall behind a fast airplane and totally get lost in a G1000, 650, even a 430. I grant you, it would be really cool and make me feel like an airline guy to raise the gear.. but beyond that it doesn't really seem to add any modern value. Proof to that is the TTx and that some of the fastest planes out there are fixed gear.


A gear won't save your life when things go belly up.. it could however result (best case scenario) in an embarrassing story or (worst case scenario) total your plane, injure you, or even killing you if you have issues with it or forget to put it down. The chute.. that can save your life. I would always pick that poison

**I'm actually not anti legacy Mooney. They're a cool, well built sporty ride with a sharp ramp presence and good performance on miserly fuel burn. I was hoping to see a very fresh display and presence at EAA with their whole "new, we're back!" image. But they didn't deliver. I got a fenced off thing that you entered from the back with two planes, a Porsche, and unfriendly staff. The current company vision and management outset has totally lost any identity and control of what they are, or who they want to be. It's too bad.. cool to have some variety at our GA airports

In a LOT of situations a chute wont save your life either. Here at my local airport A Cirrus crashed while landing. The Chute does save lives I agree with that but under very small parameters there are a lot of other situations where it cannot save you. The idea is to get proficient in your chosen aircraft so you can limit the amount of risk you and your passengers absorb. I choose proficiency over a chute any day. I guess different strokes for different folks.

I agree Instead of the Porsche Mooney should've put in some legacy Mooneys like the 201 or 231 to sit in and the price tags for those which are about 1/10 the price of Cirrus SR22. The Mooney brand needs an entire marketing revamp.

 

[FastEddieB]

...and if I have a electrical problem, looking into footwell to check if a CB has tripped or trying find the one I want to pull sounds like a good way to lose control of the plane.

I agree that is a design flaw, with form getting in the way of function.

I'm on the fence about the lack of a prop control. While I might opt for one if available, the amount of utility lost by not having one is minuscule.

And, as RudyP says, there is still a mixture control to futz with.

 

[Tantalum]

The Mooney brand needs an entire marketing revamp.

Totally agree. Their executive team has had a few shakeups and it can be hard for a company to find its bearings following that. Let's hope 2018 and 2019 are better years for them. They never should have cancelled the M10 that could have ushered in Mooney V2.0 and built a new step up program for them. And notice it is not RG

The idea is to get proficient in your chosen aircraft so you can limit the amount of risk you and your passengers absorb. I choose proficiency over a chute any day. I guess different strokes for different folks.

They don't have to be exclusive. You can be proficient and have a chute. If I'm halfway to Catalina, or over mountains, or heck, down low over the LA area and the Conti quits I'd rather have the chute then be forced to ditch, mush into the tree tops at 90 knots, or try to put it down on the 405

In a LOT of situations a chute wont save your life either. Here at my local airport A Cirrus crashed while landing. The Chute does save lives I agree with that but under very small parameters

It's another tool. If you are over 600' AGL, not on fire, and not doing some absurd speed (I'm talking past Vne) then it should basically work every time. Some people pull it too late or don't pull at all, but that's on them unfortunately. I know it mostly adds piece of mind to the non pilot pax. I know it was originally built as a result of a middair.. where you could still hope to survive even after a catastrophic air frame failure. It won't save your life if you stall / spin on base to final or just don't fly the plane proficiently

 

[Tantalum]

RE: blue knob. In my limited time with a 182 I couldn't figure out what was so great about the prop control. I prefer manual cars (yes, with a clutch, not flappy paddle) but it's not like you can down shift a 182 by jamming the blue knob in to pass the guy in the 172 ahead of you. You basically set it per the POH, then tinker with it from time to time. If an engineer can figure out a way to mechanical perfect that then why not? There's that innovation that Cessna and the others don't capitalize on..

(ps - you still get a blue knob in the Cirrus, it's just integrated into the throttle)

 

[jaymark6655]

That M10 looks awesome. They had that stupid fence 2 years ago, I didn't go in. Could have sworn it said VIPs only somewhere. I went down to look at Cirrus, friendly salesperson approached me and asked if I needed anything. I promptly told don't waste his time on me, couldn't afford one if I wanted. He said no worries, just call me back over it you want to sit in one. The tent was like an Apple Store, Apple does really well and as a cult following. Maybe they took some marketing tips and really dissected what Apple does best.

 

[Tantalum]

looking into footwell to check if a CB has tripped or trying find the one I want to pull sounds like a good way to lose control of the plane

I mean.. you shouldn't lose control by looking down for 5-10 seconds.. do you lose control of the plane when you reference an AFD, sectional, iPad, or dig around in the cooler in the back for a few moments to find that next in flight snack, or soda?

Plus trimmed out it flies very nicely manually and you can feel the rows and count by referencing the schematic on the G1000

That M10 looks awesome.

Yup. That is innovation right there. Should have stuck with it. Close the old lines and rebuild.

They had that stupid fence 2 years ago, I didn't go in. Could have sworn it said VIPs only somewhere.

This year it just had signs saying "free poster giveaway"

friendly salesperson approached me and asked if I needed anything. I promptly told don't waste his time on me, couldn't afford one if I wanted. He said no worries, just call me back over it you want to sit in one.

Those guys were awesome. Chatted up my 16 year old nephew for a solid 15 minutes in the cockpit of the Vision Jet about planes and flying

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Ok....now I want a Panthera.

 

[Tantalum]

Slovenians build some cool things. Elan yachts are nice too (if there are any sailors / boaters in the group)

 

[tspear]

I find it interesting how many pilots want the prop control, or RG or NDB.....
1. With modern aerodynamics and at these relatively slow speeds, ask yourself the following: If you screw up with the gear switch what is the consequence?
2. How much performance difference can you get by controlling the prop speed? And do you fly in locations where you need the additional performance?

Then consider your car. How many drivers can actually push the car faster and drive better without traction control or anti-lock brakes?
Removing the gear switch and prop control is exactly the same. Unless you are a pilot as good as Bob Hoover and cutting the margin less then 1% on the takeoff/landing performance of a Cirrus the prop control provides fundamentally no value in almost any situation (one exception, maintain higher power slower prop speed for noise reasons).

Personally, I believe sh** happens. I also believe that in critical moments, being task saturated I am more likely to make mistakes. The fewer tasks, the less likely I will make a mistake and also less likely it will cause a critical problem. Such as in a go around needing full power (two more levers, prop and gear).

Tim