What's it worth

I'm not sure it will sell in this market. No GPS, no autopilot...needs paint and interior. Fuel bladders maybe?

Why does it need any thing to fly?
 
I didn't say it needed anything to fly....it needs about 50K spent on it to sell in this market.

I see what your saying, but if it had all you wanted, it wouldn't be $39k

2 KX 155s with a ILS/GS head, isn't that bad of a radio stack. plus a DME
 
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for a VFR pilot like me I would buy this rather than a 172. I don't need the extra avionics or auto pilot. . the increased fuel burn is offset by the increased payload & speed. If i could buy either. Dave
 
for a VFR pilot like me I would buy this rather than a 172. I don't need the extra avionics or auto pilot. . the increased fuel burn is offset by the increased payload & speed. If i could buy either. Dave

fuel burn is a myth, we have seen over the years that flying a C-185 to Fairbanks and flying a super cub to Fairbanks requires the same fuel. THe 185 will do it in 1 long day the super cub takes 3.
 
You fly different from me. you are thinking in terms of traveling distance. for me An hour flying is an hour. If i go further in that hour i burn more fuel, true, but for me it is still just an hour. Dave
 
I'm not sure it will sell in this market. No GPS, no autopilot...needs paint and interior. Fuel bladders maybe?

oh my. No GPS? That's horrible. (yeah, I don't even have a handheld GPS in my Cherokee and yet I manage to stumble around the sky and survive the landings)

Seriously, I really don't understand the thinking that an airplane has to have all those cockpit doo-dads (exceeding the hull and engine value), especially for VFR pilots.
 
for a VFR pilot like me I would buy this rather than a 172. I don't need the extra avionics or auto pilot. . the increased fuel burn is offset by the increased payload & speed. If i could buy either. Dave

There is no requirement that you run the engine at 75%, pull the power back a bit and get less than 9 gph burn.
 
Seriously, I really don't understand the thinking that an airplane has to have all those cockpit doo-dads (exceeding the hull and engine value), especially for VFR pilots.
But that makes the pricing pretty attractive for people who don't find them necessary!
 
oh my. No GPS? That's horrible. (yeah, I don't even have a handheld GPS in my Cherokee and yet I manage to stumble around the sky and survive the landings)

Seriously, I really don't understand the thinking that an airplane has to have all those cockpit doo-dads (exceeding the hull and engine value), especially for VFR pilots.

If you want to go get your PPL/IR with this plane you certainly can. I have no dog in this hunt...just trying to answer the question.

Shouldn't you ask yourself "can I sell it?" before you buy it? If you learn how to fly here, it will be behind a G1000 and that is something you have to consider.

Two magic words are also missing - no damage history and always hangared which obiviously it has not been.

Maybe $25K?
 
If you want to go get your PPL/IR with this plane you certainly can. I have no dog in this hunt...just trying to answer the question.

Shouldn't you ask yourself "can I sell it?" before you buy it? If you learn how to fly here, it will be behind a G1000 and that is something you have to consider.

Two magic words are also missing - no damage history and always hangared which obiviously it has not been.

Maybe $25K?
are we sure a glass panel is a good thing? OR just a different thing. I have been looking at round eyes do long that a panel would be strange for me. Dave
 
If you want to go get your PPL/IR with this plane you certainly can. I have no dog in this hunt...just trying to answer the question.

Shouldn't you ask yourself "can I sell it?" before you buy it? If you learn how to fly here, it will be behind a G1000 and that is something you have to consider.

Two magic words are also missing - no damage history and always hangared which obviously it has not been.

Maybe $25K?

I believe that would be an insult to the seller.
 
It's just the wussies. They were all squealing last week when their little internet flight planners were down for a while.

oh my. No GPS? That's horrible. (yeah, I don't even have a handheld GPS in my Cherokee and yet I manage to stumble around the sky and survive the landings)

Seriously, I really don't understand the thinking that an airplane has to have all those cockpit doo-dads (exceeding the hull and engine value), especially for VFR pilots.
 
I believe that would be an insult to the seller.

Tom,

Probably so, but I would expect to be insulted if I tried to sell my airplane right now.

BTW, this is a good example of why I no longer post of these boards..... I didn't say or do anything that deserved a personal attack. Like it or not that's the way I see it....don't shoot the messenger...I fly a steam gauge airplane and use paper charts....get over yourselves!
 
I see what your saying, but if it had all you wanted, it wouldn't be $39k

2 KX 155s with a ILS/GS head, isn't that bad of a radio stack. plus a DME

About the same as the stack in the Arrow in our club. Except it doesn't even have DME. One Nav/Com with ILS/GS head. Second radio is Comm only. Second VOR is self contained in the OBS head. Oh, and the ADF is inop.

That 182 doesn't look bad. I'd have to get used to the scattergun panel, however.
 
Tom,

Probably so, but I would expect to be insulted if I tried to sell my airplane right now.

BTW, this is a good example of why I no longer post of these boards..... I didn't say or do anything that deserved a personal attack. Like it or not that's the way I see it....don't shoot the messenger...I fly a steam gauge airplane and use paper charts....get over yourselves!

I do not believe what I posted was an attack on you, What you believe and what I believe may be different, IMHO that does not constitute an attack on you.

If you get offended because I don't agree ...... Oh Well ! but offering a seller 50% of asking price is just not a method getting any aircraft in any market, because most sellers will simply tell you to get lost. Even if they are nice enough to not say it, that's what they are thinking, and all offers after that won't be given due consideration.

There is nothing in the advertisement that indicates that this old 182 is any thing but what it is, not mentioning that it is a no damage aircraft does not mean it is. they are not saying that this aircraft is a new aircraft, the ad says that the interior and paint is a 5, and it is priced at about 60% of the today's market.

We know that new paint and glass is about 13K (@ PAE), and an interior is about 5k, so if you got this aircraft at 35k added new paint, glass and interior, you'd still be well below market with colors you like.

Be real and find me a 182 of that vintage with mid life engine, low airframe TT, new paint, glass and interior with a dual set of KX155s with GS, DME, and ADF, at or below $53k
 
The guy's inviting an offer, and a 182 is always a useful airplane. If, upon close inspection, it bears up well, I'd make an offer in the mid thirties - enough to get the ball in play, not low enough to have him tell you to ****-off.

Now, I don't much entertain the theory that making a low offer is an "insult" - it's not like you're calling their kid ugly or anything like that - but it is certainly true that, if you make an offer which is so low that the seller doesn't believe you are taking the process seriously, your credibility may be shot to the point that the seller opts not to deal with you at all... which is (of course) his privilege.

And Tom's observation that he thought a $25k offer would be an insult is in no way an attack; it is his personal assessment of how he thinks that offer would be received. You can agree, disagree, comment - but if you think that is a "personal attack," perhaps you need:

images
 
I do not believe what I posted was an attack on you, What you believe and what I believe may be different, IMHO that does not constitute an attack on you.

If you get offended because I don't agree ...... Oh Well ! but offering a seller 50% of asking price is just not a method getting any aircraft in any market, because most sellers will simply tell you to get lost. Even if they are nice enough to not say it, that's what they are thinking, and all offers after that won't be given due consideration.

There is nothing in the advertisement that indicates that this old 182 is any thing but what it is, not mentioning that it is a no damage aircraft does not mean it is. they are not saying that this aircraft is a new aircraft, the ad says that the interior and paint is a 5, and it is priced at about 60% of the today's market.

We know that new paint and glass is about 13K (@ PAE), and an interior is about 5k, so if you got this aircraft at 35k added new paint, glass and interior, you'd still be well below market with colors you like.

Be real and find me a 182 of that vintage with mid life engine, low airframe TT, new paint, glass and interior with a dual set of KX155s with GS, DME, and ADF, at or below $53k

Huh? Where did that come from?
 
I love 182's. Ours was a '63 "F".

Compared to that, this one looks absolutely state of the art. I don't think the asking price is unreasonable but I would certainly research the market and offer a little less to start. You can always go up but you can't go down.

I lost my fear of "insulting the seller" when I was buying a house in the 80's. My wife wanted to lowball an offer, I said I thought that would be an insult, the Realtor said an offer is an offer, who cares if they are insulted; we made the offer and they accepted. nuff said.
 
I believe that would be an insult to the seller.
I agree. Even is something is way overpriced giving a low ball offer is probably counterproductive. I would tell the seller that I am interested but the asking price is more than I am willing to pay at this time and would provide contact information. If the airplane does not sell you might get a call back in a few weeks or months with a reduced price when the seller realizes it's true market value.

What is the red board?
 
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Huh? Where did that come from?

I made that assessment based upon what we paid last year to do a 1964 182 at PAE, and what Stitch did my 24 for.
 
So if we use that logic, should buyers be equally insulted by all the high-ball asking prices?
 
The guy's inviting an offer, and a 182 is always a useful airplane. If, upon close inspection, it bears up well, I'd make an offer in the mid thirties - enough to get the ball in play, not low enough to have him tell you to ****-off.

I'm not really good at dickering with a buyer or seller, So, I do my home work and know the market and make a fair offer. If that doesn't get the aircraft, I tell the seller the offer still stands up to the point I buy another aircraft.


Now, I don't much entertain the theory that making a low offer is an "insult" - it's not like you're calling their kid ugly or anything like that -

But you just told him that his other wife, his baby, his wonderful flying machine was worthless, (that's what they will hear) most will be insulted, :)

but it is certainly true that, if you make an offer which is so low that the seller doesn't believe you are taking the process seriously, your credibility may be shot to the point that the seller opts not to deal with you at all... which is (of course) his privilege.

And Tom's observation that he thought a $25k offer would be an insult is in no way an attack; it is his personal assessment of how he thinks that offer would be received. You can agree, disagree, comment - but if you think that is a "personal attack," perhaps you need:

images

I'm not often as eloquent as I'd like to be, thus sometimes I'm pretty blunt.
 
So if we use that logic, should buyers be equally insulted by all the high-ball asking prices?
It may tell you that the seller is unreasonable and negotiating is not worth the effort. I believe that you are more likely to be successful in bargaining if you take into account basic human nature. If you offer a fair but really low price initially the seller may get ****ed off because he may think you are implying that he is too stupid to give a reasonable asking price. The trick is to get the seller to realize that the price is too high without being insulting. I think that you are more likely to be successful if neither of the parties gets angry. Just read a few posts in this forum if you want to see how easy it is to get somebody all worked up. Another piece of advice, keep everything as simple as possible. A confused mind usually says no.
 
So if we use that logic, should buyers be equally insulted by all the high-ball asking prices?

If your insulted by the price, click off and go away.

But to get a seller to allow you to inspect his BABY and then insult them, is a different story.

and to make it a buyer's policy, is just wrong IMHO.

the CYA statement,,,,,, "Not that any one here will do that" :)
 
There are many ways to handle price negotiations without telling the guy he has an ugly baby. There's also no way to know how a seller will react to any price discussions, but that's his problem, not mine. If his airplane was an absolute steal, it wouldn't be for sale long enough for me to be looking at it anyway.



If your insulted by the price, click off and go away.

But to get a seller to allow you to inspect his BABY and then insult them, is a different story.

and to make it a buyer's policy, is just wrong IMHO.

the CYA statement,,,,,, "Not that any one here will do that" :)
 
I think Kent would feel right at home with this bird.

Dangit Troy, stop that! :goofy:

My first question would be - "Does it have the long range tanks?"

Then, I would want to know when the bladders were replaced.

Then, I would get a thorough pre-buy, paying particular attention to potential corrosion where the interior meets the airframe, and the condition of the engine.

But, it's a tough call. I think it's fairly reasonably priced where it is, and if someone walked in with a $32K-$35K offer they'd probably get a great deal if it's mechanically sound.

However, it is a bit "long in the tooth" feeling. Having the KX-155's and DME is good, but this plane feels like it needs a lot of work. $13K is about right for P&I, plus about $3K to convert to a 6-pack, then there's the $15K for the Garmin 430W and another $15K for the autopilot, and now we have an $86K bird that's worth $70K. :frown2:

Do you NEED any of this stuff? No. For your average VFR $100 burger chaser pilot, this is a fine airplane, if it's mechanically sound. But, it needs work to be brought up to the equipment standards that people are becoming used to these days. If it were $50K-$55K and *only* needed Paint, or interior & 6-pack, or GPS, or autopilot, it'd be an OK deal. But considering it "needs" all of the above to bring it up to the standards of a fairly average rental plane, it's going to be a tough sell.
 
Having "grown up" on steam gauges, I'm amazed at the deals to be had out there these days. An awful lot of folks are "spoiled" a bit by the glass. It's nice, but if you analyze the missions you're likely to fly... you may not need it. All depends on what kind of flying you do and plan to do.

As Kent said, if you're looking to have a solid "old school" IFR capable 182, which are neither the fastest, slowest, sleekest, best at lifting heavy loads, longest-legged, or prettiest airplanes... but do all of the above to the 80/20 rule just fine... it doesn't look that bad from the limited material presented. I love our 182's "do just about anything, but not perfectly" behavior and manners.

If you grew up on any glass, or have gotten used to it, you'll tire of this panel quickly and you'll be reaching deep into the wallet to "fix it, when it ain't really broke."

Not being hangared and living somewhere in the Pacific Northwest, I'd get down and dirty with a solid pre-buy looking for corrosion on metal that old, though. And spend hours of quality time with the logs.

If you're looking to buy any of the add-ons Kent mentioned, buy them already in the airframe. In this market the current owner has already taken the hit and lost the money on those items if they're already in the aircraft.

Our 1975 C-182 in a three-way LLC ownership arrangement is similarly equipped, but isn't the shotgun panel and has 2000+ less overall hours on the airframe, but similar engine times when I got involved. I was far more interested in the "attitudes" of the other owners and their approach to maintenance and practicality, than I was worried about the airframe, but I still did the hours of log reading, and all the things mentioned above before buying 1/3 of the LLC.

Let's get real here on something else... any aircraft can break at any time. If you're not solvent/liquid enough to do at least a top-overhaul tomorrow or replace a jug... and realistically perhaps even an entire engine, you're not well advised to buy anything that might require it, tomorrow.

Co-owners make that solvency both easier and harder. Easier in that the first co-owner makes it 50% less expensive the second he/she joins. The third, cuts everyone down to 33% each. The fourth, now you're down to 25% of that price, and at 5 and beyond, you start to run into scheduling issues if you're all active pilots, and each successive co-owner after that adds less and less "value" to your ability to afford the aircraft. We've limited our LLC to a maximum of 5 owners in the LLC per aircraft, by by-law, and we're unlikely to ever change that rule. How co-owners make that harder, is that there's at any one time likely to be at least one person who can't cough up the cash if it happens "tomorrow"... so you're into renegotiation of who owns what percent, etc.

Airplanes aren't investments. You buy them to fly them. (Same thing with houses.) :-) If you can afford to own this bird at $35K plus whatever it takes to get her to your personal maintenance and equipment standards, and you're prepared for the engine to fall off the nose tomorrow and willing to replace it... you're ready to buy. If the market for aircraft goes down or up, it's interesting, but ultimately immaterial... you'll either sell for less than you got in at, taking a bath... sell at what you paid and have more flight time in your logbook (a bonus), or sell above what you paid (unlikely).

Here's an old-school guy's very American-Dream kinda thought... buy Garmin stock with the money you saved getting into an older steam-gauge bird, and let the kids who've just "got" to have glass, pay for your gas. :-)

If everything in that panel works right, the airframe's sound, the mechanical stuff has been done right, there's no damage history, and your mechanic blesses it... it can get you to 200-1/2 at a whole lot of airports, brainpower and practice of course, required. Plenty of King Air pilots and Lear pilots out there flying behind similar vintage King stacks.

It's all about what you want... you want a panel that your avionics guy can replace a failed instrument in an afternoon for a C-note, or do you want the fancy gizmo glass? Look at it this way... it's virtually the same aircraft still rolling off the line at Cessna, and it's 1/10th the new cost.

Does it probably need work? Yes. Don't buy if you think you're in it for only the cost of the aircraft. All aircraft need thousands of dollars a year on top of their price tag to keep them happy and flying, besides the gas and direct operating expenses. If you're not that liquid, don't buy. And think about co-ownership... it really does make things easier -- assuming you all get along.
 
P.S.

Dad worked in sales his whole life, and did well enough at it that he retired at age 53. His answer to this question, never changes:

Question: "What's it worth?"...
Answer: "Whatever you'll pay for it."

:D

His ability to walk up to someone and offer whatever it's worth to HIM is virtually legendary amongst everyone who knows him.

He walked away from a garage sale with a collector's edition of a particular type of car for $3000 below Blue Book one time, because he pointed at the car under the tarp nearby and asked the lady if she'd take $3500 for it. It was easily worth twice that.

She was well-off, it was a pretty high-end neighborhood garage sale, and her answer was, "I knew I'd have to deal with that sooner or later. My husband says I have to learn how to sell my own cars, and I want my new Jaguar he promised me when I sell it."

Ding. Motivated seller. He said he'd be back from the bank in 30 minutes with a cashier's check. She held to her word, and he drove the car home that day.

No one else that went to that house that day and the garage sale asked about the car, and there was no for sale sign on it. He saw something he'd wanted for a while, and made his offer that was reasonable to him. It wasn't reasonable by any measure in any pricing book, but the car was his at the end of the day.

If dad sees something he wants, he knows what he can afford, and offers that. He either gets it or he doesn't, but I haven't seen him pay anywhere close to "full price" for anything in 20 years.

30+ years in Sales will teach you that people will buy or sell for virtually any reason. And that price is always negotiable, unless it's literally a one-of-a-kind item.

Walk up to 100 people with Skylanes with your low-ball price, sooner or later one of them will take it. After you know that, the market's your oyster.

Seriously. You just never know unless you ask.

And as someone else pointed out, if someone's insulted by your "low-ball" offer, but you offered them exactly what it's worth to YOU... that's their problem. They can be as angry as they want, while you walk away to your car and drive home. You don't even have to be disappointed that they didn't take the offer... it obviously wasn't worth it to them. And you knew your price.

I've done this now at car dealerships for five different vehicles. Walk in, make an offer, tell them it's firm and that additional dealership or handling fees won't be acceptable, wait for them to play their "let's talk to the sales manager" games, for about an hour, leave with the vehicle desired at the price desired.

Only once did I ever walk out without the vehicle, and I felt sorry for the dealer that they were "in it" on that car, that far upside-down. Some other sucker could have it for their price, I was smiling when I walked away, because it wasn't MY price.

The last new car I purchased (for the wife... I drive older stuff...), I faxed the offer to the only dealership in Colorado that had the color and option package she wanted on the lot.

They called in 30 minutes and surprised the heck out of me with, "Can we get $80 more?" Yep. They needed $80 to make their number. I laughed and asked him why $80. He said, "You nailed the number we need for that car, but we did $80 worth of advertising on it since it's been on two different lots."

I asked him, "Would you guys really lose this deal for $80?" He said, yup. You're already at fleet pricing. I was almost laughing too hard to answer when I said, "When should we schedule pickup? You can have your $80."

So yeah, doing your homework on price does pay off.

All of that is the really long way of saying, "If that airplane after you've done all the proper pre-buy inspections and knowing whats in it, is worth $10K to you, offer the dude $10K if you really want it. You just never know what situations people are in.

Here's where it crosses a moral line:

I worked for an aircraft broker once. And not for very long. He never paid up on three aircraft I found him. So I left. He rolled through college kids like candy.

His methods:

He would pay college kids to cold-call every owner in the FAA registry within range of his Aztec. He'd offer them a low-ball price, then go to the bank and take out cashiers checks... one for 10%-15% lower than the offer, which was always followed up with a fax and standard wording that the aircraft must be "as described", and two or three more to make up the difference.

The week I quit working for him was when he offered to have me come along to pick up an aircraft about 80 miles away. We blasted off in the Aztec, landed at the airport, and he hopped out of the airplane and went to work... studying the logs of the aircraft, acting alternatively interested, and pointing out every little flaw he could find. Then he announced that he would buy it, but that he only had that first check for the 10%-15% lower price with him, as he was going to get the money from another account, or whatever he mumbled that day.

I watched the owner mull it over for about 30 seconds, and take that check. And hand over the title and registration and keys to his aircraft. My boss, the new owner, locked up the airplane, said he'd be back to get it later that day (I wasn't qualified at the time to fly either aircraft, and the one he bought was out of annual...) and moved the airplane to a tie-down and locked it up with his own padlock and gust lock system he had just for the occasion, and we blasted off.

I learned how sleazy airplane salesmen could be that day. And I learned how variable aircraft pricing is.

I don't recommend this as a way to make friends, be a moral person, or run any business... but just as a way to point out that once someone decides to sell, if their personal finances are such that they can afford a hit, often-times they took it.

I have no idea what he would have done or said to the guy if he'd have had to pull out the other two checks and add them to the extra-lowball check. But I'm sure he probably had some interesting pre-rehearsed lines. "Oh, here's a check in my wallet that was supposed to be the down payment on the next aircraft we're flying down to pick up later today. Would you take that?" Stuff like that, I'm sure... but I'm only guessing.

Mix Mr. Sleazy aircraft broker's story there with dad's wisdom, and you can find deals on airplanes. They're out there. You'll have to burn a lot of shoe leather and phone calls to find 'em, but they're out there. Especially in this economy.
 
Nicely done, Denver Dude.
 
So you're saying that the owners basically gave in for 10-15% of asking??? I find that hard to believe. Maybe 1 out of 50 people may be hard pressed to do that, but the other 49 will be after him for the balance 85% owed, either with a lawsuit or shotgun.
 
So you're saying that the owners basically gave in for 10-15% of asking??? I find that hard to believe. Maybe 1 out of 50 people may be hard pressed to do that, but the other 49 will be after him for the balance 85% owed, either with a lawsuit or shotgun.

That's not what he said:

10%-15% lower than the offer

So, 85%-90%. Frankly, asking prices are inflated by that much anyway, so the owners were probably getting a reasonable deal.
 
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