Whats a better time builder: CFI or Towing Banners

Snaggletooth

Snaggletooth

Line Up and Wait
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Dustin
For a while now I've been thinking about how to build my hours up after I get my Commercial rating, to get the hours needed to become a Charter Pilot.

What would be better? CFI or towing banners?
 
Yeah, but...

Don't go into instructing purely to log time. You will cause more harm than good unless you have some exceptional qualities (which are rare, thus why they are exceptional)

Can you relate well to different (VERY different) people? Can you read someone else and know if they are anxious, nervous, over confident, just plain slow? Do you have the patience to guide someone else over many, many mistakes, some potentially fatal?

Finally, are you always learning, and always willing to consider that your "student" might know more than you?
 
Towing banners until you have the CFI. Then do both.

You learn a lot about flying by teaching.
 
Do whichever one takes the longest, so you can gain the requisite experience delivering pizza, deciding which flavor of Ramen noodles you like best and which worn-out beater you like to drive. The more experience you have with those those activities, the better you will be able to adapt to being a charter pilot.

Some charter jobs may open up when you're about 50, so you want to be ready to sieze the opportunity. They won't pay squat, but in the meantime you will have been forced to learn some other marketable skills, which might actually put you on a career track that amounts to something. :tongue:



Snaggletooth said:
For a while now I've been thinking about how to build my hours up after I get my Commercial rating, to get the hours needed to become a Charter Pilot.

What would be better? CFI or towing banners?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Do whichever one takes the longest, so you can gain the requisite experience delivering pizza, deciding which flavor of Ramen noodles you like best and which worn-out beater you like to drive. The more experience you have with those those activities, the better you will be able to adapt to being a charter pilot.

Some charter jobs may open up when you're about 50, so you want to be ready to sieze the opportunity. They won't pay squat, but in the meantime you will have been forced to learn some other marketable skills, which might actually put you on a career track that amounts to something. :tongue:
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It Charter Piloting really that bad?
 
In my opinion, if you look at CFIing as time building, I'd suggest doing anything BUT CFIing.
 
Dean said:
I may be wrong, but most banner jobs seem to be in the Florida and east coast ares. I haven't seen a banner operation in the mid-west for years.
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Also, probably any city large enough to have a professional sports stadium.

I was surprised to see one flying over Nashville on my way back home during Christmas. The wind was howling and the plane was pretty much stationary over the stadium aimed directly into the wind.
 
wpierce said:
Also, probably any city large enough to have a professional sports stadium.

I was surprised to see one flying over Nashville on my way back home during Christmas. The wind was howling and the plane was pretty much stationary over the stadium aimed directly into the wind.
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TFRs generally outlaw banner tows near a stadium.
 
Snaggletooth said:
It Charter Piloting really that bad?
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Charter can be a lot of different things so it's best not to generalize. It's also best not to get too set on what you want to do at this point. You'll probably change your mind a dozen times in the next few years, or have it changed for you.

dmccormack said:
Better plan -- gain skills and expertise that lets you fly as a hobby -- your terms, your routes, your ball game.
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I wouldn't say it's a better plan, just a different plan.
 
For building time, I'm going to make the same suggestion to you that was so successful with Ted. Check out the opportunity to fly with Animal Rescue Flights.
http://www.animalrescueflights.org/
They don't pay you to fly, but their charitable status may cut down on your expense.
 
Keep in mind that the availability of students, or banners, might make one or the other the better option.

I know my dad flew pretty much non-stop pulling banners in Florida. You'd never log as much time as quickly instructing.
 
No, it's worse. No mention of crappy working conditions, stretching the rules, constant ongoing battle for trips, fudging the duty rules, cheating on the squawk list, out of work at every hiccup in the economy, no upside, no benefits, no life, no retirement, no nothing.

How many career charter pilots have you ever met? Or heard of?

Snaggletooth said:
It Charter Piloting really that bad?
Click to expand...
 
If you want to instruct to build time, then don't instruct. Personally, I'd say don't start instructing until you've had enough valuable experiences that you can convey some worthwhile experience to students. Furthermore, if you aren't dedicated to the student, then you're wasting his or her (and your) time. Give this careful consideration first.

Your first hurdle, though, is building time to get to the point where you can get your Commercial and CFI. For that, the Animal Rescue Flights flights are great. You have to pay out of pocket for those hours anyway, so you might as well log some valuable XC hours and help some animals in the process.

Once you get your commercial, you really have to decide what sort of hours you want. Not all hours are equal and some are definitely more educational than others. I would tend to state that your longer cross countries are some of the best education besides instructing. Being a ferry pilot is one option (ask Allen about that) or (if you're very lucky) being a pilot for a person who owns his or her own plane but doesn't want to fly it is even better. Doubly so because those people usually have money and therefore nicer planes.

Whether or not being a professional charter pilot is really what you want to do is another matter... it seems to have treated Mari pretty well, but I don't think that's the path I'll be taking. To each his (or her) own...
 
Everskyward said:
Well, there's me...
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Beat me to it. I was going to say "Mari" ... :) and another friend of mine, Gary, who finally got so tired of late night "pick me up in Los Angeles, take me to Vegas, wait around until I'm ready to go to Aspen or Vail, then maybe on to Atlantic City" that he ditched the charter and got on as a Corporate Pilot. Funny, the destinations are just as varied, and it doesn't appear they're any more well planned out, and now include Europe, with the addition of the Challenger to the company's hangar.
 
gkainz said:
Beat me to it. I was going to say "Mari" ... :) and another friend of mine, Gary, who finally got so tired of late night "pick me up in Los Angeles, take me to Vegas, wait around until I'm ready to go to Aspen or Vail, then maybe on to Atlantic City" that he ditched the charter and got on as a Corporate Pilot. Funny, the destinations are just as varied, and it doesn't appear they're any more well planned out, and now include Europe, with the addition of the Challenger to the company's hangar.
Click to expand...
Not all charter or corporate jobs are equal and I actually do some of each since I fly a managed airplane which is also on the charter certificate. Personally I like the different people, different places aspect of charter. Sometimes the flights are strange and unexpected and it's not for people who like to plan out everything well in advance and can't be flexible. I'm not looking for another job and the only one I've considered, or have been considered for, in the past few years was something very similar only a different airframe and different location. The only thing I would like to try in the future is international trips (besides Canada and Mexico) but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
 
Ok, for some reason not to many people here seem to like Charter Piloting. So I've changed my mind...

How bout being an Air Taxi Pilot? :rofl:

I've also Thought about Ag Piloting. Farming is a large part of my Local Economy. I know of two local Ag Operators. One with two AT-502's, and he was going to be selling one AT-502 and getting a Thrush. The other has a few Turbine Powered G-164 Agcat's (Agcat's are what I'd like to fly).
Maybe Ag Flying would be the way to go. Come to think of it, I don't know of any Local Charter Operators.
 
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Dean said:
I may be wrong, but most banner jobs seem to be in the Florida and east coast ares. I haven't seen a banner operation in the mid-west for years.
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I see them overhead pretty regularly - even once in what looked to me to be solid IMC (1 mile viz at best).

I assume they fly out of ONZ.

Da nephew is back to flying body parts in a King Air now that the air show job is done for the season.
 
You could always buy a 421 and start a charter operation...
 
Everskyward said:
Not all charter or corporate jobs are equal and I actually do some of each since I fly a managed airplane which is also on the charter certificate. Personally I like the different people, different places aspect of charter. Sometimes the flights are strange and unexpected and it's not for people who like to plan out everything well in advance and can't be flexible. I'm not looking for another job and the only one I've considered, or have been considered for, in the past few years was something very similar only a different airframe and different location. The only thing I would like to try in the future is international trips (besides Canada and Mexico) but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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As usual, Mari, a nice synopsis.

A lot of the flying I do is somewhere in between charter flying and personal flying since I set the schedule and whether or not I'm doing a flight, but not the destinations. I find it very enjoyable. Going to the same place all the time gets boring.
 
Snaggletooth said:
Ok, for some reason not to many people here seem to like Charter Piloting. So I've changed my mind...

How bout being an Air Taxi Pilot? :rofl:

I've also Thought about Ag Piloting. Farming is a large part of my Local Economy. I know of two local Ag Operators. One with two AT-502's, and he was going to be selling one AT-502 and getting a Thrush. The other has a few Turbine Powered G-164 Agcat's (Agcat's are what I'd like to fly).
Maybe Ag Flying would be the way to go. Come to think of it, I don't know of any Local Charter Operators.
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I know several ag -pilots in thier mid 30's who already make more that even the most senior airline captains.. I would strongly suggest looking into this...On the other hand Air taxi/charter can be a great spring board to a corporate job if thats your thing....most corp. jobs come along by happenstance once your in the loop..at least that how it happened for me and most of my friends .I personally dont know any p135 pilots that I would say are making good money (without doing something on the side) and have a good quality of life....as posted above jobs are all different . For now take it one step at a time...build your time...get some quality IR XC experiance in a variety of weather..that will build some real flying skills. Good Luck!
 
Let's say Snag decides to pursue this line of work. Based on real-life experiences, what should he reasonably expect as a net income stream (total money made vs. total money spent) for each of the next 10 years?
Twenty years?

At what point in his career should he be able to look back and know he has recouped his training costs from the money he has made flying airplanes? When should he look forward to being able to buy something? Like health insurance? (oh sorry, I forgot Obama will provide it) Or a car, or maybe even a house? Or send kids to college? Where are the promotion and upside opportunities? Any chance he can hit a home-run? When will he be able to retire? Where will that money come from?

Where's the stability and lifestyle that everybody wants at some point in their life, whether or not they know it at age 20 or 30 or whatever? Do we let the kid know what he's in for now, or do we just say "attaboy keep on digging?" Of the kids who are in Snag's position now, and all eaten-up with the idea that they've got to be flying airplanes to be happy, how many of them can hope to end up with decent jobs that you'd want your kids to have?

I'm not trying to throw rocks over the fence, these are all questions I've discussed at length with pilots who are closer to the other end, looking back and wondering why. I didn't initiate the conversations, they did. They have occurred in the cockpits of various airplanes (I flew charters for a few years because the opportunity arose and I could control the situation because I managed the airplane on the certificate) at the training center where I was Part 135 instructor and check airman, and in pilot lounges and hotels and various places where pilots get together for group whines. At some point even the C-students figure out this may not be all it's cracked up to be.

I've only been watching this side of the business since the mid '90's, but based on what I've seen so far it looks like one of the biggest financial drains and poor career choices that a young person could possibly make. There's no doubt that some small percentage of people who start down the road end up making a reasonable living, and and even smaller percentage do fairly well insofar as employee wages go.

The time required to reach those levels, and the probabilities that they will ever be achieved is the sticking point for me. Just seems to me that by the time you're 45 years old you should be making a decent living and have things pretty much squared away.

I'm all for kids and all for flying airplanes, but trying to mix the two into a career that ever amounts to squat appears to be a long-odds deal. YMMV

PS: I ran an ad for a CJ1 pilot on the Climb to 350 website last summer. It was a sorry part-time job in a high cost-of-living area, but the guy I represented told me what he wanted and I did what he said. I had hundreds of resumes backed up in my email and fax machine within a few hours.
 
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wabower said:
Just seems to me that by the time you're 45 years old you should be making a decent living and have things pretty much squared away.
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Well, I'm somewhat older than 45 but I could say that's true for me and I only started in the charter business when I was 42. I did have quite a few hours from my other flying life, however.

wabower said:
PS: I ran an ad for a CJ1 pilot on the Climb to 350 website last summer. It was a sorry part-time job in a high cost-of-living area, but the guy I represented told me what he wanted and I did what he said. I had hundreds of resumes backed up in my email and fax machine within a few hours.
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Right now there are a lot of unemployed pilots just like there are a lot of unemployed people but it hasn't always been that way and I'm sure it will go back the other way at some point.

I think one thing people, especially young people, forget though is that it's a job and there's a reason they pay you and the reason is not so that you can go have fun in their airplane. I don't know that I would encourage young people to be pilots but I would not discourage them either. Everyone needs to find their own road.
 
Dean said:
I may be wrong, but most banner jobs seem to be in the Florida and east coast ares. I haven't seen a banner operation in the mid-west for years.
Click to expand...

There's only one left, to my knowledge. I think they're based at KRAC, but I've also seen 'em picking up a banner at C81.

Good thing the TSA/FAA/NCAA/NFL/etc. got rid of those darn terrorist banner-towers. :mad2::frown2:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
There's only one left, to my knowledge. I think they're based at KRAC, but I've also seen 'em picking up a banner at C81.

Good thing the TSA/FAA/NCAA/NFL/etc. got rid of those darn terrorist banner-towers. :mad2::frown2:
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They did?

I saw a local banner guy pulling a WB Network ad over a Pitt football game back in November....

:dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
They did?

I saw a local banner guy pulling a WB Network ad over a Pitt football game back in November....

:dunno:
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The TFRs are only up to 3000 feet over stadia. I've seen 'em too. They're just not as low as they once were.
 
Everskyward said:
I think one thing people, especially young people, forget though is that it's a job and there's a reason they pay you and the reason is not so that you can go have fun in their airplane. I don't know that I would encourage young people to be pilots but I would not discourage them either. Everyone needs to find their own road.
Click to expand...

Another excellent summation, Mari. Especially that bit I highlighted.
 
I saw a Banner being towed at Wings Over Houston. It was a guy asking his Girlfriend to mary him.
 
wabower said:
No, it's worse. No mention of crappy working conditions, stretching the rules, constant ongoing battle for trips, fudging the duty rules, cheating on the squawk list, out of work at every hiccup in the economy, no upside, no benefits, no life, no retirement, no nothing.

How many career charter pilots have you ever met? Or heard of?
Click to expand...

I know a few, and if you include the closely related field of part 91 company flight department pilots, I know quite a few more. Most do NOT aspire to airline flying.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
There's only one left, to my knowledge. I think they're based at KRAC, but I've also seen 'em picking up a banner at C81.

Good thing the TSA/FAA/NCAA/NFL/etc. got rid of those darn terrorist banner-towers. :mad2::frown2:
Click to expand...

We have one who does pickups at 1C5.
 
There is a banner towing operation out of 47N, Central Jersey Regional. They have five or six planes there. One of their pilots is 82 years old. I'm told they have other bases around the country. "Supposedly" they also operate out of Maryland, Georgia, and California. I heard that they were grounded by the FAA for several months about a year ago because of poor maintainance on their fleet of modified Cubs. "Rumor" has it that one broke in half behind the cockpit in California, killing the pilot. I think the name on their van said Wagner, or VanWagner or something like that.
 
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