What would you do? Fisk VFR Arrival to OSH

[Diana]

Here’s a scenario that happened inbound for OSH. There were no holding patterns yet and the controllers at Fisk were dealing with a “flight of 16” just past Ripon. As I was approaching Ripon from the southwest, I noticed two airplanes at the same altitude, speed, and distance from Ripon as me, one on my left at a 60-degree angle and one on my right at a 60-degree angle. As we got within a mile of each other, I kept watching to see if anyone was going to change course, since we were probably on a collision course right over Ripon. When we were within a half-mile of each other, I changed course.

Obviously the right of way rules apply here. Which way would you have turned with airplanes on both sides and an unknown situation behind you? Why?

 

[tonycondon]

kinda tricky situation. i would say slow down some to get some spacing, but stay as close as you are comfortable with to the people you can see, to avoid getting run over from behind. if you still need separation, maybe change altitude, i would descend rather than climb, as there is faster traffic above you on the arrival. Is it possible to just peel off the arrival and rejoin back at fisk?

 

[ScottM]

Split S towards the aircraft on your left and use missles as you climb up underneath him. Then continue climbing with a right turn to get lost in the sun and then engage the other aircraft with guns while decending towards it on its left side.

 

[Steve]

Be careful about descending...VFR aircraft departing OSH could be at 1300 MSL in that direction even though the notam says stay on an westerly or southerly heading until clear of the class D

I would turn and follow the closer airplane, personally.

 

[tonycondon]

oh didnt think of departures steve, good call.

 

[jesse]

First off. I would stick to the assigned altitude and not vary that whatsoever. Half of the airplanes can't see up and the other half can't see down. Everyone needs to be at one altitude or you won't be able to see other airplanes and vice versa.

I would have slowly turned towards whatever the closer airplane was and try to just go with the flow. Anything that you can do to avoid any drastic turns and continute into the space that you can see is best. Obviously if what is in front of you is a collision and there is nothing you can do except quickly turn away from the situation you'll have to do it. But it's the LAST thing you want to have to do.

 

[Diana]

kinda tricky situation. i would say slow down some to get some spacing, but stay as close as you are comfortable with to the people you can see, to avoid getting run over from behind.

Well, at that point, we were at the mandatory 1800 feet, 90 knot, 1/2 mile separation point. The other two airplanes were still on a collision course with no sign of either of them changing anything. Of course, any deviation is warranted to avoid a collision.

Is it possible to just peel off the arrival and rejoin back at fisk?

Well, you have to enter at Ripon first, then head down the tracks to Fisk. Another interesting thing, after I got back to Ripon and headed for Fisk, a Cherokee zoomed past me at my altitude (to my right) and got in line ahead of me.

 

[Diana]

I would have slowly turned towards whatever the closer airplane was and try to just go with the flow.

We were all the same distance, so neither was closer. And, of course no radio contact, as the Fisk controller was very busy talking to those inbound from Ripon. I had NO idea what those other two pilots were thinking or what they were going to do next.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

First, right-of-way rules don't matter except with respect to which of the corpses will be blamed for the accident by the NTSB/FAA. You must assume neither aircraft sees you nor is aware of your presence. Assuming the usual side-by-side seating aircraft ala Cessna, Mooney, etc., with pilot seated on left and better visibility to the rear out the left side I would check the left rear quadrant, adjust power to slip behind the aircraft on my left, depart the Ripon area to my left, inspect the incoming traffic, and then circle back around to rejoin the Fisk arrival at Ripon. Pulling power and attempting to squeeze in behind two already too closely spaced aircraft is a disaster for the folks behind you all trying to maintain 90 kts and 1/2 mile spacing over Fisk. Climbing is a diaster for the warbird or twin converging 500' above and behind you.

In your Citabria left or right become options.

 

[AdamZ]

First, right-of-way rules don't matter except with respect to which of the corpses will be blamed for the accident by the NTSB/FAA. You must assume neither aircraft sees you nor is aware of your presence. .

Truer words never spoken.

 

[gismo]

Here’s a scenario that happened inbound for OSH. There were no holding patterns yet and the controllers at Fisk were dealing with a “flight of 16” just past Ripon. As I was approaching Ripon from the southwest, I noticed two airplanes at the same altitude, speed, and distance from Ripon as me, one on my left at a 60-degree angle and one on my right at a 60-degree angle. As we got within a mile of each other, I kept watching to see if anyone was going to change course, since we were probably on a collision course right over Ripon. When we were within a half-mile of each other, I changed course.

Obviously the right of way rules apply here. Which way would you have turned with airplanes on both sides and an unknown situation behind you? Why?

The intention of the Fiske arrival is for everyone to get in a single file with half mile spacing by the time you get to Fiske and preferrably by the time you leave Ripon. This isn't much different that merging onto a freeway except that most planes don't have much in the way of brakes (and that's a good thing since you shouldn't have to deal with someone jamming theirs on at the "bottom of the ramp"). Personally, I'd maintain lateral separation long enough to match speeds and then S-turn in behind whoever was beside me. Just make sure that you look carefully into your turns (low wings have the advantage here) before and during such maneuvers. As to altitude, you definitely don't want to get very far off the perscribed MSL but I would go for a 50 ft stack down until I had decent spacing reducing the consequences of an overshoot. And to work out the spacing once in line I prefer to use more S-turns since banking makes you more visible to other traffic and you end up at your original speed automatically. If you pull throttle to drop back, you may end up a lot further apart than necessary and create some trouble behind you. You also won't have anything but the 90 Kt indication on your ASI to establish the same speed you already acquired when pacing the plane you are now following so you are likely to end up drifting further apart or closer together as you continue on. Relative speeds are rather difficult to determine at any distance beyond a couple hundred feet.

FWIW, this year's arrival was the least problematic one I've ever had with the only glitchs being Tower's insistance on calling my plane a "Twin Piper" and having to duck under traffic landing on 18 (he was supposed to remain at 1500 till crossing my runway but was actually below 150 AGL and I was landing long). In past years I've encounterd things like having the 135 Kt and 90 Kt traffic at the same altitude due to low ceilings, an airplane descending out of the clouds directly in front of me on downwind, and the confusion of three Barons on downwind/approach at the same time with the tower talking like there were only two.

 

[Diana]

Assuming the usual side-by-side seating aircraft ala Cessna, Mooney, etc., with pilot seated on left and better visibility to the rear out the left side I would check the left rear quadrant, adjust power to slip behind the aircraft on my left, depart the Ripon area to my left, inspect the incoming traffic, and then circle back around to rejoin the Fisk arrival at Ripon.

That's actually what I did (I was in the Skyhawk). Fortunately, I found out that no one was close behind me as I turned to the left and got a better view, so I ended up doing a 360. As I looked behind me, I noticed that the plane that had been on my right was following me in the 360.

 

[TMetzinger]

sounds like the one on the right did the same thing to you that you did to the one on YOUR left, which means that your great minds thought alike.

From my USCG days on the water, the solution to any collision problem is ALWAYS a change in course (preferable), or speed (best in converging situations). Sounds like you did the best thing you could.

 

[bbchien]

That's actually what I did (I was in the Skyhawk). Fortunately, I found out that no one was close behind me as I turned to the left and got a better view, so I ended up doing a 360. As I looked behind me, I noticed that the plane that had been on my right was following me in the 360.

In that situation, with faster traffic overtaking (as I related on the red board about the Maroon who was flying the Baron at 1800) I certainly would have chosen LEFT. Visibilty is paramount.

Good choice.

In the Seneca with lousy over-then-nacelle-visibility, Fondulac is the choice for me. The bus is only $15 roundtrip.

 

[Michael]

why didnt you just do some loops diana?

 

[gismo]

why didnt you just do some loops diana?

Hard to do that without changing altitude although I saw one pilot just about do a loop at a constant altitude in the airshow last Tuesday.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

The intention of the Fiske arrival is for everyone to get in a single file with half mile spacing by the time you get to Fiske and preferrably by the time you leave Ripon. This isn't much different that merging onto a freeway except that most planes don't have much in the way of brakes (and that's a good thing since you shouldn't have to deal with someone jamming theirs on at the "bottom of the ramp"). Personally, I'd maintain lateral separation long enough to match speeds and then S-turn in behind whoever was beside me.

The time for adjusting the 1/2 mile spacing is outside Ripon, not between Ripon and Fisk. In Diane's case the three aircraft involved would need to "create" 1 mile of trail spacing while flying between Ripon and Fisk. I don't have the charts handy, but I'd estimate that as no more than ~5 nm total distance, which means the last aircraft of the three would need to effectively fly 20% slower than the prescibed 90 kts, or ~70 kts. Toss three more folks into the mix trying to pull the same trick and the 7th aircraft in the line is down to 50 kts to maintain trail behind the aircraft pulling the freeway on-ramp trick. Not good. Unlike cars on a freeway, aircraft on the Fisk arrival can't simply park while the aircraft ahead move forward to establish the 1/2 mile spacing.

It is for this reason that the FAA controllers at Fisk were broadcasting on the Fisk approach frequency a request that aircraft establish 1/2 mile in trail when entering at Ripon, and, if not 1/2 mile in trail they should exit the arrival and return to Ripon to try again. The FAA was not advising that folks do as you suggest.

 

[Diana]

Sounds like you did the best thing you could.

Well, since then, I've been wondering if there would have been a better way to handle the situation. It's nice to be prepared for all scenarios, but this kind of situation had never occurred to me before. I was by myself this time, so I didn't have that extra set of eyes to help look for traffic.

It amazes me that some people don't even have the OSH NOTAM and fly in there anyway. In the FBO at KIOW, I was studying the OSH NOTAM one last time before I took off for my last leg into OSH, and a pilot who was walking out to get in his airplane to take off for OSH noticed me sitting there reading the NOTAM. He asked me if he could copy a few pages from my NOTAM, since he didn't have one. I got the impression that he hadn't even read it yet. I wonder how many people fly in there unprepared?

 

[Diana]

why didnt you just do some loops diana?

Michael, I'm afraid that would have made a mess of my tidy, organized piles of camping equipment in the back of the Skyhawk.

 

[Henning]

Here’s a scenario that happened inbound for OSH. There were no holding patterns yet and the controllers at Fisk were dealing with a “flight of 16” just past Ripon. As I was approaching Ripon from the southwest, I noticed two airplanes at the same altitude, speed, and distance from Ripon as me, one on my left at a 60-degree angle and one on my right at a 60-degree angle. As we got within a mile of each other, I kept watching to see if anyone was going to change course, since we were probably on a collision course right over Ripon. When we were within a half-mile of each other, I changed course.

Obviously the right of way rules apply here. Which way would you have turned with airplanes on both sides and an unknown situation behind you? Why?

I would have put the nose down and gone for airspeed and the lower altitude line. . At a half mile spacing on lightly converging aircraft I would have let it play out further, any problems and I would leave out the bottom. I'm comfortable in close and even more comfortable down on the deck. Anyway, addressing Right of Way. From what I understand, you are all converging on one point and destination from 3 spokes. What should happen is that the pilot on the right holds course and speed, the person in the middle takes his tail and the person on the far left would basically slow down and make a 90* turn to the right and come in behind both.

Lateral right of way is very simple. If you are looking at their red navigation light (left/port forward 112.5* of the aircraft) You give way. When changing course to avoid collission the prefered turn is to the right (turn your red side to them, that way if there's an accident it's their fault...) If you see their green navigational light(right/starboard forward 112.5* of the aircraft) you must maintain course and speed. If you see the white nav light (the aft 135* of the aircraft) you are deemed to be overtaking and must not interfere with the aircraft being overtaken. If you are being overtaken you must maintain course and speed. I add emphasis because there is a common missperception that goes," I have right of way so F**k Em". That doesn't work. BTW, the rules only apply if there is deemed to be a risk of collission. This is determined by 2 factors, Continuous Bearing & Diminishing Range. Same spot in the window and getting bigger. If there's not a risk of collission, no need to do anything, passing rules don't apply. Then there is the other end of the scale where the passing rules no longer apply as well, and the situation is known as In Extremis What this means is that basically the person burdened to hold course and speed has deemed it that the manuvering of one person alone will not be able to avoid collission. In these circumstances turns to the left should be avoided if at all possible.

 

[Henning]

First, right-of-way rules don't matter except with respect to which of the corpses will be blamed for the accident by the NTSB/FAA. You must assume neither aircraft sees you nor is aware of your presence.

While the second is true, the first is not even though it does contain truth. Right of way rules are there so everybody's working from the same page when making manuvering decissions and you know what the other person is going to do so you can manuver accordingly without communicating with them. The rules are there to Prevent Collision. If no one knows what they are or how to apply them, they don't do any good.

In your Citabria left or right become options.

This is false, Until you enter a situation that is in extremis, right is your manuvering option and even then, right is the prefered option.

It always amazes me how many pilots are ignorant of the steering rules and how to apply them.

 

[bbchien]

Henning, you are correct as to what SHOULD happen (I too have a much less unlimited CG license than you). But RIPON to FISK this last weekend was a "save my as_" sort of situation. I mean if the guy doesn't even have the NOTAM, how can we expect him to know the rules of Maritime right of way?

I posted my RIPON experience behind a bozo in a Baron who i subsequently discovered didn't even have the NOTAM- he was told he should punch RIPON into his GPS and you can guess the rest. He was on 120.7 and the controller told him, at 130 kts at 1800 he was passing traffic and that he was to turn right 090, 2300 and land at FLD. HE did. He busted class D and landed (w/o going over to FLD tower). Passed within 300 yards, at 2300 ahead of me on the way.

It's as bad as weekend boaters on the waterways with 200 hp and an ice chest full of beer.
-

 

[Shipoke]

why didnt you just do some loops diana?

Well i'd prefer a 6G turn to the left myself,Micheal but thats only me (lol)
Dave G.

 

[gismo]

The time for adjusting the 1/2 mile spacing is outside Ripon, not between Ripon and Fisk. In Diane's case the three aircraft involved would need to "create" 1 mile of trail spacing while flying between Ripon and Fisk. I don't have the charts handy, but I'd estimate that as no more than ~5 nm total distance, which means the last aircraft of the three would need to effectively fly 20% slower than the prescibed 90 kts, or ~70 kts. Toss three more folks into the mix trying to pull the same trick and the 7th aircraft in the line is down to 50 kts to maintain trail behind the aircraft pulling the freeway on-ramp trick. Not good. Unlike cars on a freeway, aircraft on the Fisk arrival can't simply park while the aircraft ahead move forward to establish the 1/2 mile spacing.

It is for this reason that the FAA controllers at Fisk were broadcasting on the Fisk approach frequency a request that aircraft establish 1/2 mile in trail when entering at Ripon, and, if not 1/2 mile in trail they should exit the arrival and return to Ripon to try again. The FAA was not advising that folks do as you suggest.

They were asking for pilots to establish 1/2 mile spacing before Fisk when I arrived early Tuesday morning. That said, I agree that it works better if the spacing is established before departing Ripon but with aircraft coming from several directions the resulting spacing is difficult to determine IMO. As to peeling off to the right for a rejoin, that's certainly an option, but to me it's the last choice coming after other attempts to achieve proper separation.

 

[Scott 'Gunny' Perdue]

We were all the same distance, so neither was closer. And, of course no radio contact, as the Fisk controller was very busy talking to those inbound from Ripon. I had NO idea what those other two pilots were thinking or what they were going to do next.

Diana-

I'd bet those other pilots were NOT thinking anything but 'can I find Ripon... can I find Ripon'. I'd hazard two cents here and say that the best thing you could have done is to turn towards one of the airplanes (the furthest from Ripon preferrably) and fall into trail beind him.

The safest thing to do is keep everyone in sight.... or fouce if you had power to spare you could push out ahead of them... but it would probably take 3-5 minutes to assure adequate separation. Trail is the best bet.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It amazes me that some people don't even have the OSH NOTAM and fly in there anyway. In the FBO at KIOW, I was studying the OSH NOTAM one last time before I took off for my last leg into OSH, and a pilot who was walking out to get in his airplane to take off for OSH noticed me sitting there reading the NOTAM. He asked me if he could copy a few pages from my NOTAM, since he didn't have one. I got the impression that he hadn't even read it yet. I wonder how many people fly in there unprepared?

Listen to Pilotcast 41. Just be prepared, you're gonna want to reach through your computer and slap the guy around. It starts something like this:

Cessna 53A: "Uhh, Oshkosh tower, can you tell me how to get in there?"
OSH Tower: "Proceed to Ripon and follow the Fisk arrival procedure."
Cessna 53A: "Well, um, uh, I left the NOTAM back at the airport."
OSH Tower: "I suggest you go back and get it then."
Cessna 53A: "Well, uh, Tower, uh, we really want to get in before the airshow starts."

And it gets WAY worse from there. I really wish the FAA would actually take some enforcement actions against these idiots. He tied up so much radio time it could easily have caused a very serious accident.

Diana, sounds like you did the right thing. If it got really bad, I'd climb just a tad (50-100 feet) just in case.

I came in Sunday evening and everyone seemed to be pretty much on top of their game. I didn't have to do anything special to get in line. In fact, I didn't even see any other traffic near Ripon, which kind of scares me... There were maybe three aircraft that were cleared ahead of me at Fisk after I passed Ripon. Didn't see any of them until I was southwest of the center of the field.

I did see a Tiger up close and personal. Spotted him very early on, kept an eye on him. Same altitude, headed to FLD apparently. Ended up going just off my nose, 1/4 mile or so. Neither of us corrected course, and I wonder if he ever saw me.

 

[etsisk]

I've got my own NOTAM for OSH, should I ever decide to fly up there for airventure . . .


Arrive about a week before it starts. Leave a few days after it's over.

 

[Henning]

Henning, you are correct as to what SHOULD happen (I too have a much less unlimited CG license than you). But RIPON to FISK this last weekend was a "save my as_" sort of situation. I mean if the guy doesn't even have the NOTAM, how can we expect him to know the rules of Maritime right of way?

Roger, understood, which is why you'll see in my origional post on the subject I said I'd head down for the deck if things got stupid. All bets are off when you are dealing with idiots enmass. Most people won't follow me to the deck and I feel safe there. Even if I get in trouble, it means I'm alive.

It's as bad as weekend boaters on the waterways with 200 hp and an ice chest full of beer.-

EEesh. Fleet Week Opening Day Parade San Francisco, I imagine you can relate to the scene being a former Naval Officer. I'm tending a bucket dredge Dutra is working over in Oakland with an underpowered little 65' 1100hp push boat. I'm working 2 328' dump scows that draw 28' when loaded, they are heavy. I get called in to swap the barges just as the parade is ending. I give them the empty and take the full and go to lay it to the wharf and wait for the parade traffic to dissipat. "What are you doing? Go dump that barge, we need it empty!" Soooo, out I go headed for Alcatraz where the assigned dump site is, get around the corner and there are 15,000 drunk idiots between me and Alcatraz. Nightmare.