What would you buy: $57k edition

I love my Cardinal FG, but if you are looking for a true 4-place, take a little time to study the W&B of some typical 177Bs. I can do FAA 170# x 4 with 38 gallons of gas, but no baggage. If you need to bring bags, say 100 pounds, you're now down to 21 gallons of gas max, or 2 hours till empty. The RG is probably a better fit for your mission but will probably blow through your initial budget.

Having said that, when my plane gets close to gross, the climb performance is not scary, but less than impressive.
 
What's your Cardinal haul in useful load?
 
So the Cherokee 180 with a Garmin 430 is missing logbooks before 1989. Still sound like a good deal?

If an A&P can inspect and verify all the ADs have been complied with, that doesn't necessarily bother me assuming I get it for the right price. I'll just expect to sell it at a bit of a discount down the road for the same reason.
 
Yeah it does. Because it's already at a discount at that price.

IMO, who cares if the logs from 27 years ago are missing if it's been well maintained since, assuming you get it at the right price.

A good prebuy is going to reveal the problems.
 
TexasAviation said:
So the Cherokee 180 with a Garmin 430 is missing logbooks before 1989. Still sound like a good deal?

If an A&P can inspect and verify all the ADs have been complied with, that doesn't necessarily bother me assuming I get it for the right price. I'll just expect to sell it at a bit of a discount down the road for the same reason.
Click to expand...

Not a huge deal, but a small minus none the less. I did just check the N number...no major accidents/incidents.
 
Check for corrosion, check the compressions with YOUR mechanic but the owner not present, fly it and find anything that doesnt work right. Then decide. A Piper Cherokee is a pretty good first airplane. It doesnt really have enough payload for your family you realy need a Cherokee 6. What does your wife think?
 
edo2000 said:
I have to agree. $57K for a tiger should buy a really nice one, especially since you said it doesn't have an IFR gps.
Click to expand...

For a 57k tiger I'd want a full IFR bird, autopilot GNS or better box, JPI, etc.
 
James331 said:
For a 57k tiger I'd want a full IFR bird, autopilot GNS or better box, JPI, etc.
Click to expand...

They may sell for that, but they certainly aren't listed for that.

Tigers seem to be way overvalued right now. Same thing with Archers, with people wanting 65k for an Archer with a 430 in it these days.
 
Bonchie said:
What's your Cardinal haul in useful load?
Click to expand...

Mine is 1591 empty and grosses out at 2500, so 909 pounds of cargo, people, and gas. If you fill the 50 gallon fuel tanks (300 pounds), you will have 609 available for people and cargo. I think each prospective Cardinal should be looked at though. Some, including mine, left the factory weighing less than 1500 pounds, so a light one could give the owner over a 1000 pounds to play with.
 
TexasAviation said:
Show me a $57k Tiger like that. Not seeing it in my area, at least.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure of a listing, but those things are weird to sell, I wouldn't pay over 50k for a Grumman unless it was LOADED.

For what you can get out of a PA24 for the same price point why would you?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Check for corrosion, check the compressions with YOUR mechanic but the owner not present, fly it and find anything that doesnt work right. Then decide. A Piper Cherokee is a pretty good first airplane. It doesn't really have enough payload for your family you realy need a Cherokee 6. What does your wife think?
Click to expand...

+1 on The Cherokee 6. I love the useful load (1000+) good for family and bags and they are reasonably priced and much easier to maintain.
 
W9XkOcE.jpg
PWnHjdu.jpg



I looked at this 1976 Cherokee 235 Pathfinder on Friday. Gorgeous, fresh paint on the outside, average on the inside (with old avionics, including functional single-axis autopilot and electric trim), 1600 SMOH, and IFR current so I could start my instrument training right away. Asking $45K.

I'm seeing the potential here for a very nice airplane. Assuming it gets a positive report from the pre-buy, the engine should have a few years left. Then I can get it overhauled by a good, reputable shop. And I'd be starting off with a very healthy maintenance reserve fund in place, so I'd have a head start getting ready for that big expense.

Other upgrades I could make over time:

1. Get rid of the stupid Dakota sticker (reminds me of folks who put "Escalade" badges on the back of their Tahoe. Yuck.)

2. Install a used 430 WAAS. What would be a ballpark cost on that, $10K?

3. New interior. I bet $6k could go a long way to make it feel more modern on the inside. It's not awful right now, just dated and worn in places.

What do you guys think?
 
Keep looking for one with the avionics you want. It will be substantialy less. If you are picky, a creampuff is really the least expensive. Good mechanical shape and all the features you want. New as you can afford.
 
Old missing lots arnt really a issue, in some planes it won't even get you a discount.

I wouldn't get the above plane, it's "IFR certified" but that doesn't mean much, I wouldnt buy a plane planning on doing avionics upgrades, interior, meh OK, stickers, sure, heck I'd even buy a plane planning on a engine overhaul (if the price was right) before I would consider a panel redo
 
I'd buy the cleanest lowest timed airframe I could find. Then over haul the engine, up grade the radios, interior, and have it re-painted to what I like. Then keep it until you can't fly any more.

At least you'll know what you have.
 
Sounds like a super expensive way to do it.
 
It is generally less expensive to buy one that has what you want already installed, than it is to buy something cheaper that you have to upgrade.
 
I agree that if you must have a waas GPS in the near future, it would be better to shop for an airplane that has one already. On the other hand, that would not be a bad IFR trainer just the way it is, and it would be a very capable aircraft for lots of different mission types. With the higher time engine, I would be looking closely at logs, oil filters, compressions, etc. to give myself reassurance that I would be getting a few years of service, before the $25K overhaul comes around. Obviously negotiate for the best price and keep looking at other possibilities as you negotiate. I do like that airplane, though.
 
You can get by with a handheld GPS. What you will be needing is ADSB by 2020. But...Garmin 430 WASS = Good. What brand are those radios?
 
It's my understanding that a WAAS GPS would let me use lower minimums in IFR conditions and would make the ADS-B compliance a little bit easier/cheaper down the road, since I'd already have a WAAS source in the panel. Is that correct? It's not on my "must have" list but would be nice.

Also posted this question to the instrument training forum: GPS for IFR flying - do I need it?
 
Tom-D said:
I'd buy the cleanest lowest timed airframe I could find. Then over haul the engine, up grade the radios, interior, and have it re-painted to what I like. Then keep it until you can't fly any more.

At least you'll know what you have.
Click to expand...

Tom has a point. If you are fairly young, this could be an important consideration (i.e. "until you can't fly anymore.").

As far as ADS-B compliance, there are a few units available now that have built-in GPS source and are also a new transponder. I do not believe you are talking about huge savings with a WAAS GPS installed. WAAS GPS will not necessarily let you use lower minimums. What it will do is give you approaches into airports that do not have an existing ground-based approach, give you more flexibility with off-airways routing and provide alternatives for approaches into all airports. The "gold standard" for years has been the ILS approach, and most airports that have those now will continue to have them.
 
WAAS GPS does let you go down to lower minimums vs non WAAS. Its the same RNAV approaches, just different minimums. LPV minimums vs LNAV minimums are right on the chart. And having a WAAS in a Garmin 430 allows you to buy a less expensive ADSB transponder and use the WAAS GPS for the ADSB. Also, if you buy a transponder that has its own WAAS GPS and dont have a WAAS GPS, you will have to install a WAAS GPS antenna, because a nonWAAS, even IFRGPS antenna wont work with a WAAS.

It is true, if you have an ILS, those minimums are usually about the same, or even lower, than WAAS LPV minimums.
 
Last edited:
WAAS helps you get lower, depending on how and where you're flying, most non WAAS approaches will get you low enough, the biggest benifit to WAAS is the glide slope and the complimentary glide slope.

That said, WAASing a non WAAS box isn't that bad, about 3k if you shop it. Don't get hung up on the 2020 stuff I'd guess as the deadline get closer you're going to have better and cheaper options
 
OK, shifting gears here ...

I'm tempted to take a look at this plane. It's a two-seat experimental (Vans RV-6A) located near where I live with a 430W and STec autopilot with altitude hold, but it's very different from what I've been looking for. My thinking is I could keep renting the Archer for those times I need four seats. It would be nice having something faster and more fun, so the RV would be my sports car I fly most of the time and the Archer would be my family sedan when I need one.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1110949_RV-6A.html

They're asking a little more than my max budget, even after a price reduction, but it's close enough I'm thinking we could make a deal if it's the right plane for me. I'd have a ton to learn about the world of experimentals and would want to find a real RV expert for the pre-buy.

Another plus for this route: I've got a 13-year-old daughter who had no interest whatsoever in aviation until she saw an aerobatic show. Now she's talking about wanting to become a pilot and do aerobatic training. A spinnable RV might help keep that spark glowing :)
 
Yeah. Don't worry about WAAS.

You are going to dramatically reduce the market you can shop if that's a must because most fixed gear Pistons are lucky to have a GPS, much less WAAS. A search of Archers for sale might show a couple but they'll also be overpriced.

Any 430 or 530 can be made WAAS after the fact for not that much once the ADSB mandate kicks in. In the meantime, ask yourself how often you are seriously gonna need to shoot to LPV minimums.
 
The benefits of a "4 seat" plane over a 2 seater is not that you can carry 4 people, but you can fit stuff in the plane.
Bicycles, camping gear, whatever... hard to fit that in a RV6.

RV6 does have its own benefits, though. Fast, efficient, ability to put in non-TSO equipment.
 
Before you buy an experimental, you need to make sure you have a mechanic that will work on it. The only way I would own another experimental, would be if I built it myself...it can be very hard to find A & P that will work on someone else's experimental.
 
That RV looks nice, but man, whenever I see a plane like that, with the GNS and full steam I just scratch my head, it probably would have been cheaper and lighter to just go full glass.

As for mechanics who won't work on exp. that says little for the mechanic, even though I have a certified plane, I doubt I'd use a mechanic who wouldn't work on exp.
 
Your tentative plan to rent the bigger airplane when you need the extra room is a good one, if you rent it enough to stay proficient in it with whatever avionics it has. This would be pretty easy if it has the same stuff as your smaller plane. Aerobatics would be good also :). Something like a Decathlon or Citabria might be had for your budget, or the RV. The latest issue of "Aviation Consumer" had a good comparison of the Decathlon and Citabria.
 
James331 said:
As for mechanics who won't work on exp. that says little for the mechanic, even though I have a certified plane, I doubt I'd use a mechanic who wouldn't work on exp.
Click to expand...

Then you would have to virtually leave my state to find a mechanic...when I had my experimental (Rutan design that looked like new with a O-200), I probably called 3 dozen mechanics before I found one for an annual, and even then he wouldn't do it but instead would only sign my books after I did it (and after charging me $800 for his signature). Nearly all the A&Ps never even asked what it was...."Do you work on experimentals?" "Nope."
 
Last edited:
I like the RV-6 idea. Bonanza speeds or better, with Cherokee 180 operating costs, plus waas and a lot of near new instrumentation, plus aerobatics :). But I have never owned an experimental, so my opinion is worth what you are paying for it. I hadn't thought of the possible difficulty finding a A&P, that sounds like good advice, and an important step *before* pulling the trigger. I know that the next time I buy an aircraft for personal transportation and recreation, I'll be looking hard at RVs.
 
TexasAviation said:
OK, shifting gears here ...

I'm tempted to take a look at this plane. It's a two-seat experimental (Vans RV-6A) located near where I live with a 430W and STec autopilot with altitude hold, but it's very different from what I've been looking for. My thinking is I could keep renting the Archer for those times I need four seats. It would be nice having something faster and more fun, so the RV would be my sports car I fly most of the time and the Archer would be my family sedan when I need one.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1110949_RV-6A.html

They're asking a little more than my max budget, even after a price reduction, but it's close enough I'm thinking we could make a deal if it's the right plane for me. I'd have a ton to learn about the world of experimentals and would want to find a real RV expert for the pre-buy.

Another plus for this route: I've got a 13-year-old daughter who had no interest whatsoever in aviation until she saw an aerobatic show. Now she's talking about wanting to become a pilot and do aerobatic training. A spinnable RV might help keep that spark glowing :)
Click to expand...

If you want to learn about experimental I happen to have a RV6A and a RV10 in my hangar and could show you the differences if you are interested.
This isn't the forum to get the correct info on what you can and cannot do, for example the commits about A&P's is far from the truth.
 
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
I'd buy the cleanest lowest timed airframe I could find. Then over haul the engine, up grade the radios, interior, and have it re-painted to what I like. Then keep it until you can't fly any more.

At least you'll know what you have.
Click to expand...


what you'd have is an empty wallet and bank account! I'll let someone like you fix it up and buy it 60 cents or less on your dollar!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top