What will you tell the census taker?

[weilke]

Is that bad?

Don't you know: All goverment is bad *

*exempt from 'bad' are all functions of goverment that benefit me. May it be farm subsidies, transfers to the military industrial complex, federally funded roadbuilding or construction in my hometown, medicare is also exempt because I am nearing 65

 

[SCCutler]

Is that bad?

Mari, if it is used for any purpose other than those specifically delegated to the federal government by the constitution, then yes, it is bad.

 

[Everskyward]

Don't you know: All goverment is bad *

*exempt from 'bad' are all functions of goverment that benefit me. May it be farm subsidies, transfers to the military industrial complex, federally funded roadbuilding or construction in my hometown, medicare is also exempt because I am nearing 65

 

[Everskyward]

Mari, if it is used for any purpose other than those specifically delegated to the federal government by the constitution, then yes, it is bad.

I disagree. I think the demographic information is useful for planning and I don't understand why people are afraid it is going to be used for some nefarious purpose.

 

[SCCutler]

I disagree. I think the demographic information is useful for planning and I don't understand why people are afraid it is going to be used for some nefarious purpose.

Simple. The government is inherently untrustworthy - not this government in particular, but all governments.

 

[Everskyward]

Simple. The government is inherently untrustworthy - not this government in particular, but all governments.

I don't believe that governments are inherently trustworthy or untrustworthy, just like the people who are part of them. The same goes for businesses.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Speaking just for me, the income info is just too personal to reveal to an unknown person. The conspiracy theorist in me is concerned that said person may use the knowledge of my income to make assumptions about assets inside the abode.

I don't see anywhere on the short form (which is all there is for 2010) where it asks for income information. What am I missing? Or are you all discussing a form you haven't taken a look at yet?

 

[wbarnhill]

FWIW, I found census data extremely helpful when doing family geneaology work. The details don't become available for 70 years after the census is taken, and while the ones I researched didn't have income info, information about names, ages, race, occupation etc. helped me find my great-grandfather and his family, and his father's family, when none of my living relatives would have had any idea.

On the subject of race; I'm not always keen on filling it out, but I have fun when I do. Had to designate race on a form one time for a medical test; the condition is more prevalent in some races than others. When I got to the section where I had to provide this information, I thought... thought some more...... then asked the lab tech, quite honestly:

"how many can I check?"

She said; "choose whatever is most comfortable".

My response: "how far back do you want to go?" (that family history gets complicated...)

She didn't quite know how to respond to that one...... of the six they had listed, I checked two, and wrote in a third one on the freetext line (yeah, they missed one).

Left it up to them to decide how they wanted to classify; they asked the question

Interesting side note. As a university we're not allowed to require students to tell us their race, but we ask them to fill out a survey that includes a question about race because we have to report that information back to Columbia, and onto Washington, and it's also how we qualify students for certain scholarships. Thing is, because of the laws, we can't question a student's race... a student can be as white as the driven snow (excuse me, Caucasian, non-hispanic), and check his race as, oh let's say... Hispanic, African American, and Pacific Islander, and we have to accept it as truth.

Surprised that students haven't figured that out in all honesty... But there's at least one student in our enrollment list that checked every single race option. So yeah...

 

[SkyHog]

I have a real problem with asking for anything other than that which is required for:

"An Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."

Enumerate me and my house by asking how many people are here then get the hell off my property.

edit: Why do they want to know my race, and whether I'm of Spanish origin?

 

[timwinters]

Knock it down to $46.67/form.

Actually, I think it's closer to $122/form. Isn't it the case that a form is sent to each household and not each citizen? If so...then there ae only about 115 million forms.

 

[Trapper John]

I vigorously object to any governmental program which attempts to shape policy around the reallocation of wealth from one state to another, including the profoundly ridiculous practice of federal funding for schools. I further object to responding to any questions relating to race; government has no business possessing this information.

What alternative means for determining funding of things would you propose? FHWA funds for example.


Trapper John

 

[SCCutler]

I don't believe that governments are inherently trustworthy or untrustworthy, just like the people who are part of them. The same goes for businesses.

More about the nature of bureaucracies - the key difference is, if a business acts inappropriately, it generally fails; governments, with the power of taxation, do not. Few in government set out to be bad; the natural inclination to aggregating and preserving power nudges things that way.

What alternative means for determining funding of things would you propose? FHWA funds for example.


Trapper John

I have no objection to the census as intended (the enumeration of citizens); just to the scope of information they demand, under color of law. You touch, by the way, on one of the few legitimate functions of the federal, highways specifically being intended to improve interstate commerce, and to allow more efficient defense.

 

[Amelia]

Trying to effect social engineering by acquiring racial data seems outdated...so, if my Census form requires an answer, I'll answer Native American. I WAS born here.

Now that we have a racially 'all-of-the-above' President, can't we move on to more important stuff? Like defending and protecting the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Like upholding the Constitution?

 

[Trapper John]

I have no objection to the census as intended (the enumeration of citizens); just to the scope of information they demand, under color of law. You touch, by the way, on one of the few legitimate functions of the federal, highways specifically being intended to improve interstate commerce, and to allow more efficient defense.

Another thing to consider, though, is business use of census data. Population and income demographic information is valuable for retailers looking to expand, developers, commercial real estate brokerages, the list goes on and on.

If it weren't for readily available (and free!) census data (along with other handy government-compiled data), how would businesses obtain this useful information?


Trapper John

 

[Bob Noel]

Another thing to consider, though, is business use of census data. Population and income demographic information is valuable for retailers looking to expand, developers, commercial real estate brokerages, the list goes on and on.

If it weren't for readily available (and free!) census data (along with other handy government-compiled data), how would businesses obtain this useful information?

Tell me again why I should provide businesses with this information...

 

[Ted]

Dave makes good points that I agree with. My neighbors don't know a lot about me, and I want it to stay that way.

As to my answers? I'll just put down the simple answers that don't tell the whole story but will satisfy them.

I do have a major issue with them sending people out to follow up on those who don't mail in the form. That's an invasion of privacy. I don't see how the government has the right to force people to reply to the census.

 

[Trapper John]

Tell me again why I should provide businesses with this information...

Economic development, for one. You know, that whole unemployment and defecit thing that everyone ******* about these days. More economic development, more employment, more tax collections.


Trapper John

 

[Bob Noel]

Economic development, for one. You know, that whole unemployment and defecit thing that everyone ******* about these days. More economic development, more employment, more tax collections.


Trapper John

So now I'm obligated to make it easier for businesses to obtain
information they want?

<insert mp3 of "I don't think so Tim">

 

[weilke]

I do have a major issue with them sending people out to follow up on those who don't mail in the form. That's an invasion of privacy. I don't see how the government has the right to force people to reply to the census.

How ? 'Goverment' passed a law and so far the constitutional challenges to it have not succeeded.

Same method they use to make me pay taxes.

 

[Trapper John]

So now I'm obligated to make it easier for businesses to obtain
information they want?

<insert mp3 of "I don't think so Tim">

Point is, census data is useful for a number of things, not just "gummint gettin' in our bidness".

If you buy a house and finance it, you reveal a lot of information to private entities. A quick query to Trans Union or Equifax, and one can find out a lot about you. A quick check of your county recorder/assessor and one can find out the original amount of your mortgage, and in a lot of cases, how much you paid for your house and its current value. Everyone has a lot of information warehoused in the private sector.

I guess you could always become a mountain man and go off the grid if it bothers you that much.


Trapper John

 

[AuntPeggy]

I don't mind answering the questions. An informed government is a more efficient government. Who wants an uninformed, inefficient government? Not me.

 

[Bob Noel]

> Point is, census data is useful for a number of things,

I agree that the data can be useful to non-government organizations.
Do you understand it's not the federal government's job to
provide such data?

> [it's] not just "gummint gettin' in our bidness".

Do you think my objection is based on some red-neck notion?
If so, why? If not, why try to smear any dissent?


[snip]
> I guess you could always become a mountain man and go off the
> grid if it bothers you that much.

Why do you think this has to go to such extremes?

 

[Trapper John]

I agree that the data can be useful to non-government organizations.
Do you understand it's not the federal government's job to
provide such data?

Why is it not their job? Are you saying that the Census Bureau is attempting to do things for which they don't have statutory authority?

Do you think my objection is based on some red-neck notion?
If so, why? If not, why try to smear any dissent?

I guess I don't know what your objection is, other than you don't particularly like it. But why the concern over the census, and silence over all the private entities that mine and warehouse information about you?

Why do you think this has to go to such extremes?

I'm not the one with the big gripe about the census, so maybe you should tell me...


Trapper John

 

[Ghery]

Why is it not their job? Are you saying that the Census Bureau is attempting to do things for which they don't have statutory authority?



I guess I don't know what your objection is, other than you don't particularly like it. But why the concern over the census, and silence over all the private entities that mine and warehouse information about you?



I'm not the one with the big gripe about the census, so maybe you should tell me...


Trapper John

I think the concern is that there is a Constitutional basis for the census and once the government goes beyond that they are in uncharted territory. And some of us don't want to play the game. As I said earlier, when they asked for "race" in 2000, I wrote in "human".

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I don't see anywhere on the short form (which is all there is for 2010) where it asks for income information. What am I missing? Or are you all discussing a form you haven't taken a look at yet?

Troy: Look at the link to the long form above. That's where it gets testy.

Best,

Dave

 

[gprellwitz]

Troy: Look at the link to the long form above. That's where it gets testy.

Best,

Dave

But Dave, others have said that they're not using the long form this decade. Do you have a reason to believe that's incorrect?

It looks to me as if it asks for name, home ownership, phone (in case followup is needed), DOB, race, gender, and Hispanic ethnicity. I don't even see occupation or relationship anymore!

 

[Trapper John]

I think the concern is that there is a Constitutional basis for the census and once the government goes beyond that they are in uncharted territory. And some of us don't want to play the game. As I said earlier, when they asked for "race" in 2000, I wrote in "human".

Authority for the Census and the information requested comes from 13 USC 141. Like other laws, if you don't like the Bill that Congress passed and the President (it wasn't Obama, btw) signed into law, you can work to get the law changed...


Trapper John

 

[Ted]

I don't mind answering the questions. An informed government is a more efficient government. Who wants an uninformed, inefficient government? Not me.

You assume that the government will actually use the information for anything that is useful to you, and that information won't be used in ways that leaves you worse off. That is an assumption that I would not be comfortable making.

You also assume that giving the government information will make them informed, which they would be if they used the information they already have.

No thanks.

 

[Trapper John]

You assume that the government will actually use the information for anything that is useful to you...

Grant applications for airport improvements typically include census data...


Trapper John

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm fine with telling them how many people of what age live at my residence. That goes towards determining how many congressional seats we have.

That's the only constitutional reason for a census, in my opinion.

I'm not going to answer questions about income or other stuff.

 

[Trapper John]

I'm fine with telling them how many people of what age live at my residence. That goes towards determining how many congressional seats we have.

That's the only constitutional reason for a census, in my opinion.

I'm not going to answer questions about income or other stuff.

So, we should only obey the laws that we like?

If you violate 13 USC 221, are you going to report that on your next medical application?


Trapper John

 

[TMetzinger]

Only if I'm convicted.

 

[Everskyward]

More about the nature of bureaucracies - the key difference is, if a business acts inappropriately, it generally fails;

I could probably come up with a few recent examples where this was not true...

 

[Trapper John]

I could probably come up with a few recent examples where this was not true...

Ahhh, but those were carefully crafted to deflect your attention from government programs like Treadstone and Blackbriar! :wink2:

Trapper John

 

[Keith Lane]

I just finished listening to the audio book version of "The Broken Window" by Jeffrey Deaver.
I know it's fiction, but it does provide food for thought. Just what data is being mined and for what uses?

http://www.jefferydeaver.com/Novels_/Broken/broken.html

 

[tdager]

If it is just the short-form questions I will most likely just answer them all.

I will NOT answer any questions on income, etc. Not to "hide" it from the government, hell they HAVE it, but to make my stance against the inefficiency of our government systems. They have the freaking data, why ask me yet again?

 

[Trapper John]

I will NOT answer any questions on income, etc. Not to "hide" it from the government, hell they HAVE it, but to make my stance against the inefficiency of our government systems. They have the freaking data, why ask me yet again?

They aren't asking income questions this year, so you can relax...

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php

But if they were, and you didn't answer on the mail-in form, they'd send a census taker to your home to get the answers. Somehow, protesting government inefficiency by causing inefficiency seems like a counterproductive way to register your objections...kind of like being the sole pax on a business jet traveling to the climate summit.


Trapper John

 

[dmccormack]

How ? 'Goverment' passed a law and so far the constitutional challenges to it have not succeeded.

Same method they use to make me pay taxes.

The Census is a Constitutional requirement:

Article 1, Section 2: The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several states, and the electors in each state shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature.
No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state in which he shall be chosen.
Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the state of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.


Thus the census determines Representation.

 

[SCCutler]

...
A quick check of your county recorder/assessor and one can find out the original amount of your mortgage, and in a lot of cases, how much you paid for your house and its current value. ...

In Texas, disclosure of the purchase price is not mandatory, and Deeds of Trust can be drafted without including that information; I recall that purchase price had to be disclosed in California, by law, and under Prop 13, that made sense- and this construct was chosen by the voters of California, as is their right under the federal system.

I could probably come up with a few recent examples where this was not true...

You are so right; and (sadly enough) our myopic federal nitwits have allowed this to be the case, rewarding incompetence with salvation, from the public teat. We reap the ugly rewards every day.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Authority for the Census and the information requested comes from 13 USC 141. Like other laws, if you don't like the Bill that Congress passed and the President (it wasn't Obama, btw) signed into law, you can work to get the law changed...


Trapper John

I'll take it one step further - the authority to make the statute comes from the Constitution.