What to say?

Unregistered said:
People telling me Weed is a good thing is not want I want hear.
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Remember, that little part the OP said?

murphey said:
But it is exactly relevant - these are plants, and you claim that there's nothing wrong with cannabis (and I refer you to the history of the plant cannabis and the etymology of the word marijuana) because it's a plant.

Your logic is faulty. Actually, your argument has no logic.

Thank you for playing. Good bye.
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+1
there are worse things to put in your body, but that does not justify weed.
 
Doggtyred said:
If you seriously think putting ANY smoke in your lungs for ANY reason is not unhealthy, then you really need to re-examine what you are thinking.. (or what you've been smoking). Wanna get high? Go get a script for marinol.
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But I thought the whole issue here is not what you put in your body but trying to control what someone else puts in their body, which in my mind is a whole different ball of wax. There's the whole, "you can lead a horse to water..." problem.
 
TMetzinger said:
HAVE to is not the same as CHOOSE to. (echoing you on the CFI task thread). I'm not talking about the choice between a suspension and school, or a fine and school.

One may have some points on their record (say they've lost three of their five "good driver" points due to a speeding ticket), not have a suspended license, and decide to go to a driver safety course of their own volition. End result - submit the class completion to DMV and a certain number of points get added, which makes your insurance carrier happy.

And MSF can be done for the same reason - to recover any points lost on your license and make you more attractive to insurers.

Going to a school for that reason would not be reportable as I interpret the form.
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Absent something in writing from the FAA to the contrary, I think that if the FAA hears about trading school for points from a source other than you, they'd come after you for not reporting it, but Bruce might have more insight into their thinking on that.
 
steingar said:
Real dumb Ron, a surprise coming from you. You treat smoking the occasional (or even nightly) joint with heroin addiction.
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I spoke of addiction, which is rather more than "smoking the occasional (or even nightly) joint." Also, there are lots of addicts who say they are not really addicted and can quit any time they want -- but they never do, no matter how much it's hurting them (and those around them).
 
Ron Levy said:
Absent something in writing from the FAA to the contrary, I think that if the FAA hears about trading school for points from a source other than you, they'd come after you for not reporting it, but Bruce might have more insight into their thinking on that.
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Well, I'll write the Chief Counsel and see what they say. Given that the language specifically calls out "conviction(s) or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s)... which resulted in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program", and taking driver education on your own initiative is neither a conviction or an administrative action, nor involving an offense, I think I'm right.
 
Ron Levy said:
I spoke of addiction, which is rather more than "smoking the occasional (or even nightly) joint." Also, there are lots of addicts who say they are not really addicted and can quit any time they want -- but they never do, no matter how much it's hurting them (and those around them).
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You assumed that any intake of cannabis would lead to addiction and an inevitable downfall. Neither one is necessarily the case, and there are plenty of folks who could tell you so. If you said the same about cocaine or heroin I might agree, since both generate powerful physiological addictions.
 
Unregistered said:
This isn't exactly an aviation question but is medical and a lesson learned. I have seen countless friends be hurt badly, and altering their life from using Weed heavily. I have a very close friend that does so and no matter what I say I cannot convince her that it can be dangerous. I have exhausted my own persuasive powers in this matter and desperately need help. People telling me Weed is a good thing is not want I want here.
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If you really have "exhausted your persuasive powers" it sounds like your friend is simply not responsive to your input. I don't think you'll have any better luck with anyone else's words in your mouth. Scary medical or legal stats are not going to do any good, I'd guess. If this person is a pilot, sadly, like anyone else leaning heavily on some drug for their daily routine, only an accident or a good scare is likely to open their eyes (if they survive). As for the law, again, only running afoul of the law will get their attention. We are talking about someone who's more often stoned than not, right?

FWIW, it may sound corny and you may have already tried it, but you might simply comment on how (if at all) it's affected your friendship (her being under "heavy" influence). If she doesn't care about alienating a friend, well... :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
Absent something in writing from the FAA to the contrary, I think that if the FAA hears about trading school for points from a source other than you, they'd come after you for not reporting it, but Bruce might have more insight into their thinking on that.
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A new pilot wanna be on the red board consulted me for assistance. One possession of weed, one DUI weed, two years apart more than 8 years ago. He's about 30 now.

He has a lotta hoops to jump through to get a student cert.
FAA's Dr. Chesanow is on to this......
 
To the OP:

Ron's advice of Narc-anon or Al-anon is the best so far. Any of those will give you insight into the (twisted) thinking of the addictive personality.

One thing you'll find there is that when the person is looking for a way out nothing you say is really the wrong thing. On the other hand when they are happy with the way things are (or it's not bad enough yet) nothing you can say will open their eyes.

That's not to say give up, it's just that I don't believe there are any magic words that will make them slap their forehead and say "why didn't I think of that". Discussion is good, but expecting to work miracles is frustrating.
 
Areeda said:
To the OP:

Ron's advice of Narc-anon or Al-anon is the best so far. Any of those will give you insight into the (twisted) thinking of the addictive personality.

One thing you'll find there is that when the person is looking for a way out nothing you say is really the wrong thing. On the other hand when they are happy with the way things are (or it's not bad enough yet) nothing you can say will open their eyes.

That's not to say give up, it's just that I don't believe there are any magic words that will make them slap their forehead and say "why didn't I think of that". Discussion is good, but expecting to work miracles is frustrating.
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Depends on if they're addicted. I've met people who are addicted to marijuana and I've met people that aren't and only casually use it. Based on the facts at hand - there is no real indicators that they have an addiction
 
bbchien said:
A new pilot wanna be on the red board consulted me for assistance. One possession of weed, one DUI weed, two years apart more than 8 years ago. He's about 30 now.

He has a lotta hoops to jump through to get a student cert.
FAA's Dr. Chesanow is on to this......
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Interesting, but not relevant to my question about drivers school that isn't as a result of any conviction or administrative action. This side-topic was a discussion over moving violations, not drug usage.

So, Dr. Bruce, do you know what the FAA thinking is on folks who get some speeding tickets and still have a valid license, but decide to go take a driver improvement course on their own (no judge or other authority involved in the decision) to build up their cushion of good driver points? Is this required to be reported?
 
jesse said:
Depends on if they're addicted. I've met people who are addicted to marijuana and I've met people that aren't and only casually use it. Based on the facts at hand - there is no real indicators that they have an addiction
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Here's how to find out:
The American Psychiatric Association uses a very easy to self use test of 7 questions to assess addiction, and if you answer yes to three or more questions you are likely addicted to either drugs or alcohol.


  1. Do you have a tolerance…do you need more of the drug or alcohol than you used to get the same effects?
  2. Do you ever feel withdrawal symptoms after stopping use, or do you ever use any other substance to prevent these symptoms (e.g.…using benzo's instead of alcohol)?
  3. Do you ever take more of a drug or alcohol than you had intended on? For example, you go out for a drink at lunch intending to get back to work, and end up have 10 and writing off a day at the office.
  4. Have you ever tried to reduce your usage, and found that you cannot, or that you soon find yourself using at the same level again?
  5. Do you have a preoccupation with the drug? Which means, do you spend a great deal of time, thinking about getting, using and then recovering from the use of drugs or alcohol?
  6. Have you ever stopped participating in worthwhile activities that you used to enjoy because of your drug or alcohol use? For example, you used to enjoy an early morning hockey league…but with hangovers, cannot any longer.
  7. Have you ever continued to use drugs or alcohol even in the face of adverse social or health consequences? For example, getting reprimanded at work or gaining excessive weight.
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For more on this test, see http://hubpages.com/hub/addiction-test.
 
Thank you all for your input, and yes the narc-anon is very very helpful. She is not a pilot, and doesn't intend to be so FAA isn't really an issue. Yeah I guess there is not a whole lot more to say to her. Again thank you.
 
Unregistered said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with smoking marijuana. Period.
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It's illegal. Like crossing the US border without permission, or driving on the wrong side of a line of paint.

You don't get to make the rules for society. You can choose to be a criminal. I choose not to.
 
TMetzinger said:
Interesting, but not relevant to my question about drivers school that isn't as a result of any conviction or administrative action. This side-topic was a discussion over moving violations, not drug usage.

So, Dr. Bruce, do you know what the FAA thinking is on folks who get some speeding tickets and still have a valid license, but decide to go take a driver improvement course on their own (no judge or other authority involved in the decision) to build up their cushion of good driver points? Is this required to be reported?
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Yes it has to be reported. But it gets evaluated as such.
 
Ron Levy said:
Here's how to find out:
For more on this test, see http://hubpages.com/hub/addiction-test.
Click to expand...

1. Do you have a tolerance…do you need more of the drug or alcohol than you used to get the same effects?

But of course! It started with one or two Hershey's kisses. Then it moved on to a handful, often an entire milk chocolate bar! Now I'm up to half a bag of Dove Dark!

2. Do you ever feel withdrawal symptoms after stopping use, or do you ever use any other substance to prevent these symptoms (e.g.…using benzo's instead of alcohol)?

I've noticed terrible headaches late at night, usually when I'm forced to eat a pint of Ben & Jerry's Chocolate Brownie when I really prefer Chocolate Chocolate Chip.

3. Do you ever take more of a drug or alcohol than you had intended on? For example, you go out for a drink at lunch intending to get back to work, and end up have 10 and writing off a day at the office.

Not really. I'm fortunate that I keep a large bag of various chocolates in the bottom left drawer of my desk. No need to go out.

4. Have you ever tried to reduce your usage, and found that you cannot, or that you soon find yourself using at the same level again?

Reduce chocolate intake? And what planet are you living on?

5. Do you have a preoccupation with the drug? Which means, do you spend a great deal of time, thinking about getting, using and then recovering from the use of drugs or alcohol?

Let's see…should I stop at Whole Foods and pick up a Chocolate Pots de Creme or simplify life and just go thru the drive-thru at Freddy's for a chocolate ice cream cone? And do I have another box of Betty Crocker's Fudge Brownie mix and pecans for tomorrow?

6. Have you ever stopped participating in worthwhile activities that you used to enjoy because of your drug or alcohol use? For example, you used to enjoy an early morning hockey league…but with hangovers, cannot any longer.

"Early morning?" Huh? whazzat?

7. Have you ever continued to use drugs or alcohol even in the face of adverse social or health consequences? For example, getting reprimanded at work or gaining excessive weight.

Let's compare definitions of "gaining excessive weight"
 
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bbchien said:
Yes it has to be reported. But it gets evaluated as such.
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Thanks. Now I know not to bother taking the class. I think I'll still write the FAA because I can't see how reading the language on the medical application someone would come to that conclusion, and I'd hate for someone to get busted for not complying with a requirement that they didn't think (in good faith) applied to them.
 
Off topic question, sorry to thread-jack, but could a medical double for a school physical?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Off topic question, sorry to thread-jack, but could a medical double for a school physical?
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If you take the form the school has regarding physicals (that the MD must complete) and you let him/her know up front you want to get a physical exam that meets the requirements of your FAA medical exam as well as the school physical., then sure... makes plenty of sense. You may have to pay a bit more than you would for just an FAA medical.

As for getting your class 3 or higher FAA medical, and showing your medical certificate to the school after the fact and getting credit..... probably not likely
 
Doggtyred said:
If you take the form the school has regarding physicals (that the MD must complete) and you let him/her know up front you want to get a physical exam that meets the requirements of your FAA medical exam as well as the school physical., then sure... makes plenty of sense. You may have to pay a bit more than you would for just an FAA medical.

As for getting your class 3 or higher FAA medical, and showing your medical certificate to the school after the fact and getting credit..... probably not likely
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Thanks, I intend to knock out both at once wasn't sure if the FAA examiner could perform the physical.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Thanks, I intend to knock out both at once wasn't sure if the FAA examiner could perform the physical.
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Well, he's an M.D., so if he's willing to sign the school's form. it should be fine. As was mentioned, it might be an additional charge, but you're saving by only making one trip & appointment. Call ahead, though!

(IOW, what Dave said.)
 
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