What to do about my flying club.

A

Anon

Guest
Two things.

1. The chief CFI in the club recently did something rather disturbing to my logbook. We were taking a IFR practice flight and he asked how much hood time I had. At the time I had maybe 9 or 10 hours. So he grabbed my log book and found some of his past entries and added in some simulated time. I was not terrible comfortable about this especially since he did it really without asking. He feels that I was more competent under the hood than what my hours reflected and wanted to up my hours getting closer to the 40 hour req. for Part 61 IFR training. I know he thought he was doing me a favor but I'm a little miffed about it. He signed the logbook entry so I guess it's technically legal. But I really feel like I need that time for real because I don't want to a) screw around with my logbook b) short-change my instrument experience since it'll be up to me one day to save my own ass. Is what he did illegal? Do I need to say something?

2. The other thing happened this weekend. The club recently acquired a sight-unseen 172. The CFI asked for members to fly out to Tennessee to ferry the plane back west. (of course we'd have to pay our own airfare but we'd get free hours coming back) So the guy who volunteered is a low-time private pilot like I am. No instrument rating. The chief CFI thought it was just fine to let this guy go by himself to ferry a plane he'd never flown 700 miles. I don't know how you can expect an inexperienced pilot pick up a beat up 172 without having at least an A&P or CFI along for the ride. Anyway, some have maybe noticed that the weather in Eastern Tennessee the past few days has not been good. The pilot ended up getting caught in the weather with low CIGs and heavy rain. The guy ended up getting lost and low on fuel and couldn't figure out where an airport was and he put the thing down in a field smashing up the front end of the clubs "new" plane. Pilot is fine but how the hell do you put yourself in that situation?

I've been thinking about leaving the club for a while because the trainers are total beaters. The members don't really take care of them and the CFIs don't enforce good habits in my mind. The only good thing is they have some very capable aircraft in the club that are very reasonably priced. But knowing how mickey mouse the guy who is running the thing is I have real doubts about the club as a whole.
 
1) It's YOUR logbook, and if you use the forged entries toward your instrument rating, you've got issues. When you sign the 8710 application, you are certifying to the FAA (a federal agency) that the information on the form is true and accurate, yet know those times are false. Don't do that, it's a federal crime.

2) Poor club leadership leads to this.

Ultimately, ditch the club. Poor leadership, poor maintenance practices, and poor decision making leads to accidents. Not worth it.
 
1 - I would have been peeved at that as well. It's unethical. But here's the thing - you allowed him to do it. I get he put you in an awkward spot, but it was on you to tell him that you weren't comfortable with him changing the entries. You can redeem this by not using/reporting the false entries towards your rating.

2 - Ultimately the fault lies on the volunteer. He was PIC and made the bad decision to fly an unfamiliar plane in risky weather.

Leave. For the same reasons brag33 said. And for the simple fact that you are not comfortable there.
 
Sounds like this is a pretty disfunctional club that's skirting on the edge of disaster. A CFI who forges a students log book is certainly not acceptable. I'd hit the road and find some place else that looks for safety as being priority and does ethical work.
 
In my opinion the best thing to do is get as far away from this group as you can before their culture rubs off on you.

I would find a way to correct your logbook. When you sign each page you are saying it is correct.

A good DPE will have a look at your log book and compare it with your 8710.

I would question the quality of your CFI’s instruction and decision making.
 
If the entries the CFI added are a different color or even shade that could be a magnet for a DPE. Just draw a horizontal line thru them and if you want to go to the trouble add a short note in the back of your logbook or bottom of affected pages on why they are lined out.

Club sounds shady and possibly allows things to slide, perhaps even maintenance on the planes. I'd walk.
 
Any time your uncomfortable with the situation ,might be a good idea to leave,and find a club your happy with,it's not always about the money.
 
I am not sure about this, and I am also not saying you should take this any further than correcting the log book... but since the hours logged there are to show currency and stats to a federal agency, I believe this would technically be falsification of a government document (Title 18 US Code 1519) with a fine and up to 20 years in prison attached to the crime. I am not a lawyer, and personally would just correct the document with a note that it was mistaken record keeping.
 
Blindrage said:
I am not sure about this, and I am also not saying you should take this any further than correcting the log book... but since the hours logged there are to show currency and stats to a federal agency, I believe this would technically be falsification of a government document (Title 18 US Code 1519) with a fine and up to 20 years in prison attached to the crime. I am not a lawyer, and personally would just correct the document with a note that it was mistaken record keeping.
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The recording of the hours in the logbook itself is very unlikely to constitute any sort of false statement. However, as soon as you present the logbook containing the false hours (or use that logbook to substantiate an 8710) to the government as true, you're hosed.
 
Back out the hours and just say it was a misunderstanding.

And ditch that club.
 
Put a single line through the hours which shouldn't be there.

Find a new club.

Done.
 
Is what he did illegal, you ask. When in doubt, open the book.

§61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:

(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;

(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or

(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.

(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.


The CFI is probably already in violation of this reg if his intent was what you stated:

wanted to up my hours getting closer to the 40 hour req. for Part 61 IFR training.
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If you leave the fraudulent time in your log and rely on it for the issuance of a certificate then you will most likely be in violation. Every FAA certificate and rating you currently hold is at risk.

You are right to be concerned. Now, what the heck are you going to do about it?
 
It sounds like the CFI hasn't studied the "Risk Management" section of the training manual. Not only is he making false entries in your logbook but who would send a low time pilot to pick up an unseen 172 that far away. It sounds like the pilot who crashed the 172 missed the portion on weather & flight planning.

Wow. It's no wonder why general aviation has a bad reputation with the public.
 
That's some shady stuff there. I've heard some "cheat" their logbooks, but I wouldn't stand for that. In my opinion that CFI should have his cert revoked based on what you've told us. This guy sounds like he is teaching people it is ok to violate Federal Aviation Regulations, that is not OK.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Is what he did illegal, you ask. When in doubt, open the book.

§61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
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Interesting. I'm not saying to use the erroneous entries. I would correct them as suggested by others. That said, if the CFII, on his/her own, added the entries without any instigation from the OP, then would the OP violate this reg if he/she used the hours? The OP did not make the entries....and the OP did not cause the CFII to make the entries. Seems to me that without triggering 61.59(a), the OP would not be in violation.

There is always some other catch-all regulation that would be brought to bear, though. Something like Knowingly Providing Inaccurate Information.
 
I feel the fear of getting caught is not the only reason to be honest.
In my opinion in this case breaking a federal law that could cost all your ratings and possible is an additional reason.
Sign the log book page and in my opinion you are misrepresenting the hours.
Sign the 8710 with numbers matching the log book and in my opinion you are misrepresenting the hours.
I suspect someone will die soon at this club. I would not be comfortable being a part of that.
 
I would expect a low time certified VFR pilot to be able to make a 700 mile cross country without a problem he couldn't handle. It is a wonderful learning and confidence building opportunity. The fact that he couldn't wasn't the fault of the plane. It seems to indicate a problem with the training and certification process.

I would also expect that even a higher time pilot might be reluctant to take on this trip without more knowledge of the condition of the plane. There might have been more knowledge. Was "Sight unseen" the whole picture? Did the club simply respond to an ad or was there perhaps a pre-buy inspection by a known reputable shop ??
 
Graueradler said:
I would expect a low time certified VFR pilot to be able to make a 700 mile cross country without a problem he couldn't handle. It is a wonderful learning and confidence building opportunity. The fact that he couldn't wasn't the fault of the plane. It seems to indicate a problem with the training and certification process.

I would also expect that even a higher time pilot might be reluctant to take on this trip without more knowledge of the condition of the plane. There might have been more knowledge. Was "Sight unseen" the whole picture? Did the club simply respond to an ad or was there perhaps a pre-buy inspection by a known reputable shop ??
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Bingo. At 110 hours, I flew to Oshkosh. It was a great experience! The cross country is on the pilot, not the club. The logbook, on the other hand, is a ****ty chief.
 
Graueradler said:
I would expect a low time certified VFR pilot to be able to make a 700 mile cross country without a problem he couldn't handle. It is a wonderful learning and confidence building opportunity. The fact that he couldn't wasn't the fault of the plane. It seems to indicate a problem with the training and certification process.

I would also expect that even a higher time pilot might be reluctant to take on this trip without more knowledge of the condition of the plane. There might have been more knowledge. Was "Sight unseen" the whole picture? Did the club simply respond to an ad or was there perhaps a pre-buy inspection by a known reputable shop ??
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I would NOT expect a low time private pilot to be able to handle the commercial operation he was performing illegally.

There are additional variables, especially schedule pressures, that he may have been ill equipped to handle.

He should be able to handle the distance and the weather, but it's a massive simplification to say that's all that faced him.

I'll bet that insurance claim was a fun one.
 
MAKG1 said:
I would NOT expect a low time private pilot to be able to handle the commercial operation he was performing illegally.

There are additional variables, especially schedule pressures, that he may have been ill equipped to handle.

He should be able to handle the distance and the weather, but it's a massive simplification to say that's all that faced him.

I'll bet that insurance claim was a fun one.
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What makes it a commercial op? The fact that he didn't have to pay for the flight?

I agree tho, there are so many variables there than just flying a 172 cross country. Looking at Kathryn's report it was a 1956 model 172, so I'd suspect it didn't have much of an IFR panel. Went down in Perryville, MO it looks like.
 
You might want to print Skydog's post #14 above and hand it to the CFI as you're walking out the door the last time.
 
mscard88 said:
If the entries the CFI added are a different color or even shade that could be a magnet for a DPE. Just draw a horizontal line thru them and if you want to go to the trouble add a short note in the back of your logbook or bottom of affected pages on why they are lined out.

Club sounds shady and possibly allows things to slide, perhaps even maintenance on the planes. I'd walk.
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Single line through, your initial, don't add it into the totals.
Remarks if needed,"entered in error", challenge the instructor if you prefer.
Talk to some of the other CFIs in the club if you prefer, perhaps one of them is a CFII that you can complete with.
 
You have to get out of there immediately. Your life is not worth cheap flying time. I would find a new club or even start a new one with the ethos expressed in this thread. I personally would want to operate at the far far lower end of the risk management scale.
 
Something doesn't seem right here. I could be wrong, but the post doesn't pass the smell test for me. No reason to post this anon, hasn't been back, pretty far fetched stories. OP, if I'm wrong, defend your position.
 
Mike Smith said:
Something doesn't seem right here. I could be wrong, but the post doesn't pass the smell test for me. No reason to post this anon, hasn't been back, pretty far fetched stories. OP, if I'm wrong, defend your position.
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I don't think he has any obligation to defend himself to any of us.
 
Based on the description of the crash, it shouldn't be too hard to find the NTSB report and determine which club.
 
Mike Smith said:
Something doesn't seem right here. I could be wrong, but the post doesn't pass the smell test for me. No reason to post this anon, hasn't been back, pretty far fetched stories. OP, if I'm wrong, defend your position.
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I thought that too when I first read this, but then again crazier stuff has happened. I agree with you. I also went through the ASN database and I wasn't able to find any such accident.
 
As far as the logbook, line through an initial any entry you are uncomfortable with and just motor on. Put away the hanging rope since we haven't heard the CFI's side of the story.

When I was a 200 hour Private pilot the local FBO had me deliver a Cherokee from Bird's Nest Airport Texas (now KEDC) to Bismarck North Dakota. In January. With no GPS. I did fine, only scared myself once.

He was so pleased that later I got to pick up a brand new C-172 destined for the Bergstrom AFB flying club. It had DME!!!!!!

If a private pilot isn't qualified to fly a 700 mile VFR cross country, then he or she never will be.
 
Mike Smith said:
Something doesn't seem right here. I could be wrong, but the post doesn't pass the smell test for me. No reason to post this anon, hasn't been back, pretty far fetched stories. OP, if I'm wrong, defend your position.
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I was under the impression that I could not respond on the thread anonymously...

Here's a link on Kathryn's Report for the incident:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/08/cessna-172-skyhawk-n6096a-incident.html

And I have every reason to post anon if it means my logbook could potentially land me in hot water.
 
Mike Smith said:
Something doesn't seem right here. I could be wrong, but the post doesn't pass the smell test for me. No reason to post this anon, hasn't been back, pretty far fetched stories. OP, if I'm wrong, defend your position.
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Fairly certain you can't anonymously post a reply...
 
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