What to buy, $50-60k?

I already know I'd love a twin. Have thought that a combination of Mooney and a twin like a PA-39 or B55 Baron makes all the sense in the world. Great for economy commuting, great for taking 3 peeps and gear. Just not for a while.

In that case, the PA24-250 Comanche should maybe go to the top of the list. You'll have a lot of similarities moving up to the Twin Comanche, and the "Twinkie" is also one of the most efficient twins there is, so maybe you wouldn't need both. ;)

The plane we've been referring to is EdFred's Comanche 250, N727DS: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50570
 
In that case, the PA24-250 Comanche should maybe go to the top of the list. You'll have a lot of similarities moving up to the Twin Comanche, and the "Twinkie" is also one of the most efficient twins there is, so maybe you wouldn't need both. ;)

The plane we've been referring to is EdFred's Comanche 250, N727DS: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50570

Nice panel, and a great looking bird overall. It's a nice xc setup, I agree. But, it's a bit older than what I've been considering.

I have not bought an airplane before, and especially with an older plane I'm concerned about a never-ending stream of maintenance issues. Or of serious metal fatigue in a critical component. That's part of the appeal of the Tiger, and maybe the 182, compared to a Comanche or a Deb/Bo in this price range.

What, realistically, can I expect to get into with keeping a 250/260 Comanche in good repair? Obviously much depends on the quality of what I buy, and much can be learned from a good pre-buy.

Is it reasonable to assume that a good pre-buy would be enough to identify all significant maintenance issues? I think I have a handle on what to look for w/r/t engines - it's the rest of the plane that I'm wondering about.
 
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Does anybody actually make a de-ice kit for a Comanche single? If so, I've never seen one.

I was trying to find the picture of me holding a bag of ice melt from some years back, but don't have it handy. Anyway, not to my knowledge. I was also including Twinkies in my statement - wouldn't want to mess around with ice in one of those.
 
Tim, something to remember is that the newest plane you're looking at is probably 40 years old. That's not exactly new. While I've heard many folks issue the same sentiment about not wanting an "old" plane, they're all old.

What matters more than age is how the plane was cared for. Many of these Comanches may be pushing 50 or more, but only have 2000 hours on them. That's not much (our 310 has 8,000 and the Aztec has 10k). Although people express concern for getting Comanche parts, I haven't talked to any Comanche owner who's actually had that problem.

Combine that with the fact that Lycoming and Continental haven't made any real improvements to engines since about 1950 (and those improvements that do exist you can use in your engine at overhaul, but likely won't be found on many other planes anyway), and I have a hard time seeing why folks have apprehension towards old planes that fit the mission requirements well.

In some cases, it makes sense more sense, but for features rather than age. For example I wouldn't want earlier than a C-model Aztec, and I think our 310N is about as old as we'd want to go on a 310. However, that has to do with the features that were put in the planes, not the age.
 
Is it reasonable to assume that a good pre-buy would be enough to identify all significant maintenance issues? I think I have a handle on what to look for w/r/t engines - it's the rest of the plane that I'm wondering about.[/QUOTE]


I would think if you used a shop that is know to specialize in the type of airplane your pre-buying it would be. If it were a Comanche (Clifton aero- tx, Webco- Ks, Heritage Aero-Il,) they could identify significant issues, Ad's etc. In my case I found one that hadn't flown much in ten years so was concerned with the engine health since it has set for so long. Other than paying someone to remove a cylinder and scope cam and crank I don't think there are any assurances on the engine, but airframe condition, Ad compliance, upcoming ad's should be doable.

Something to consider is to buy it with a fresh annual paid for by the seller and you pick a reptable shop that performs the annual. That way you should get a unbiased review of the airplane.
 
My current ride is a 1960 Cessna 180. Over five years, the total airframe repairs required have been a tiny crack in a fake rib behind the leading edge and 7 smoking rivets in the fuselage. The rubber sealant strip around the door windows is ratty and must be replaced when I can remember to order it from the auto-supply store.

The prior plane was a 1954 180, that required even fewer airframe repairs. I replaced the seat rails because they were nearing the limits, but could have waited a few years.

As the GA fleet has aged, most of the problems associated with any particular model have become well-known to the shops and type-club gurus, with many after-market upgrades and fixes available to address them. Companies like McFarlane and Webco? have made a business of providing "heavier duty" parts for known weak points in various make/models. So in some respect the airplanes are "better than new" in terms of dealing with specific problems that historically required liberal applications of time and money at the shop.

Specialty shops like Maxwell Mooney in east TX have become famous for their encyclopedic knowledge of particular types, and are invaluable for pre-buy inspections and ongoing MX.

If you buy an older dry-country airplane from a careful and knowledgeable owner who has used a knowledgeable shop for maintenance, I'd be willing to bet your maintenance costs won't be a major problem.

Having flown the repeated milk-run trips over an extended time (most-recently a five-year 370-nm each way commute from Dallas to Kansas City on a weekly basis) I think your primary issue will be determining the amount of time (and to some extent, money) you're willing to spend in the plane each week without wishing for more speed and scouring Tradeaplane every week in search of the holy grail.

I had owned bigger faster airplanes prior to the Dallas gig, but my travel requirements had lessened to the point that a T-210 and an Aerostar 602P were my only remaining rides without spending a chunk of dough.

I knew from experience gained from flying the 420-nm trip to Nashville hundreds of times over 20 years that the trip time for the 210 would average 2:20, and after several hundred trips the logbook showed a best of 1:55 and worst of 2:35.

The Aerostar's advertised cruise speed was 45 nm/hr faster than the 210, but the block times for the trip were only 15-20 minutes less, and not nearly enough to warrant the added fuel and MX costs associated with using it as the primary plane. My partner wasn't flying it either, so we sold it and eliminated a huge hole in our wallets.

Flying the same trip every week has some advantages, since you'll soon know the location of every public and private airport along the way. It can also become a complacency trap you must guard against as you continue to do it time after time after (yawn) time. The problem you will face is that you won't know for sure how you feel about any particular performance package until you experience it for a while.

After 20-plus years as a buyer's rep, I think the biggest single mistake by new owners is their failure to gain sufficient (if any) actual experience in using the plane they decide to purchase for the trips they plan to fly in it. Accordingly, my advice is to rent or charter or whatever you must do in order to evaluate the plane you plan to purchase prior to closing.



Nice panel, and a great looking bird overall. It's a nice xc setup, I agree. But, it's a bit older than what I've been considering.

I have not bought an airplane before, and especially with an older plane I'm concerned about a never-ending stream of maintenance issues. Or of serious metal fatigue in a critical component. That's part of the appeal of the Tiger, and maybe the 182, compared to a Comanche or a Deb/Bo in this price range.

What, realistically, can I expect to get into with keeping a 250/260 Comanche in good repair? Obviously much depends on the quality of what I buy, and much can be learned from a good pre-buy.

Is it reasonable to assume that a good pre-buy would be enough to identify all significant maintenance issues? I think I have a handle on what to look for w/r/t engines - it's the rest of the plane that I'm wondering about.
 
Having flown the repeated milk-run trips over an extended time (most-recently a five-year 370-nm each way commute from Dallas to Kansas City on a weekly basis) I think your primary issue will be determining the amount of time (and to some extent, money) you're willing to spend in the plane each week without wishing for more speed and scouring Tradeaplane every week in search of the holy grail.

And this is the big compromise. Keep in mind that the answer today may not be the answer tomorrow, and so other factors must be considered. For example:

That slower plane means I'll need a bathroom break (assuming I don't know how to use an empty Gatorade bottle). That speed makes the trip just feel slower. My wife comes with me on trips now and then, and she doesn't want to fly longer than x hours at a time. Some of this you will know the answer to, some of which you won't.

Wayne makes a good comparison between the 210 and 602P as an example. But there's also a big difference between the two in cost. Using the Comanche/182 comparison, you'd see a similar $/mile for a speed gain. Makes the decision easier unless you need the space of the 182. And, the Comanche has an easy twin upgrade program in the form of the Twinkie, should you decide you want the extra fan and bit more speed in exchange for higher operating costs and no more room. Hence why it seems a good choice. If you have a taste for experimentals and the discipline to fly one, a Lancair might not be a bad future option as you build experience. If they made a twin-engine version of the IV-P, I'd be all over it.

I don't think anyone has regretted having a faster plane. Some have regretted the bills associated, though.
 
Tim, something to remember is that the newest plane you're looking at is probably 40 years old. That's not exactly new. While I've heard many folks issue the same sentiment about not wanting an "old" plane, they're all old.

Not "all". Just ones in the ghetto upper middle class price budget. :)

Cessna, Cirrus, and Diamond and lots of others will sell ya a brandy-new one.

Just be prepared for Bubba the Loan Shark to break your kneecaps after you start missing payments on something that costs twice to three times the average American house.
 
Wayne covered the issues about age well. I thought it would be an issue as well, but his statements ring true about my 64YO regular use plane. The Bonanza started life in 1947, but was way ahead of it's time back then. The same airframe with minor mods was made up through 1982, with ever increasing engines. The ABS club provides a great deal of info, and services to keep the planes in the air. Ditto for the Comanche, and Fletchair provides all things Grumman.

Age is the last thing I would be concerned about for any of the airframes. Condition, and regular mx are far more important than age.
 
I was trying to find the picture of me holding a bag of ice melt from some years back, but don't have it handy.

Here ya go... :D

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It has made its yearly appearance! :D
 
But, it's a bit older than what I've been considering.

I have not bought an airplane before, and especially with an older plane I'm concerned about a never-ending stream of maintenance issues. Or of serious metal fatigue in a critical component. That's part of the appeal of the Tiger, and maybe the 182, compared to a Comanche or a Deb/Bo in this price range.

I think that once you get to a certain point, like 30 years old or maybe 4000 hours, you're looking at an airplane that hasn't been new for long enough that the "never-ending stream of maintenance issues" has pretty much evened out, as long as the plane was well-maintained. Even new airplanes cost quite a bit in maintenance. You're not going to get a new airplane for $50-60K, especially not a fast one - So the planes you're looking at will probably have roughly equal maintenance issues whether they're 30 or 50 years old.

Having been the treasurer of our club for several years (1971 C182, 1977 PA28-181, and 2006 DA40) and taking care of the Mooney (1996 Ovation), it's clear to me that the newer birds cost less in maintenance, but probably not enough to make up for the fact that they cost a lot more to purchase.

In the older ones (182/PA28) we've had to do things like skin corrosion repair, fuel bladders, wiring harnesses, and other "stuff" that just plain got old and needed to be re-done.

On the newer ones (DA40/M20R), we get different yet still-expensive issues like autopilot servos (oddly enough, the older autopilots have held up quite well), more mandatory inspections (just pulled the wings off the DA40 for no apparently good reason), etc...

Parts costs are roughly the same across all of 'em, and labor is too. There'll be more issues with the older birds, but the difference between a 30 year old bird and a 50 year old bird probably won't be nearly as big as you're imagining. I would budget $50/hr maintenance on both, and that is NOT including an engine reserve.
 
Just from observation, it seems that the more complex an airplane is the more parts there are to fail due to age, especially on an older airplane. This is especially true of wiring, connections, and things that are hard to diagnose.
 
Concerns of cost:

I think the big costs that scare us most are the unknown ones. Thing is we know all the costs of the AD's on these old birds. Once in a while a new one comes along. Most complex 2 blade props have similar ad's so either plane could have the same 500 hrs inspection ad.

I went with a Cherokee trainer as first plane although I could of afforded a much faster plane. I tend to be conservative.

The Cherokee cost over all the years and hours only $10 per hour including the 8 annuals, all tires, breaks, batteries, rebuild starter, rebuilt mags, new carburetor, whelen light replacements. It even includes the one time I got burned $470 for a battery purchased while on vacation in California, and replacing 3 rebuilt cylinders over the 9 years. I overhauled accessories early as i thought they could cost alot more to break on the road(like the battery). 1100 hrs over 9 years $11k includes every thing maintenance and inspection related including a new interior, touch paint. To be honest I spent more on each, my business van or son's sports car every year than the highest year of the Cherokee maintenance.

I could have easily spent more by making decisions upgrading engine $1500 analyzer/fuel computer, the avionics to Garmin 430W $11k, Rebuilding the engine $14k +labor to install. I wanted all three of them and I would have come out really bad when I sold my Cherokee if I had over invested that $27k in it. I decided to fly it like I bought it and always improve it and keep up with maintenance. I could have saved more by rebuilding starter and buying a battery when my mechanic recommended it rather than when I got stuck.

The Comanche cost

The Comanche costs more as it has 2 more cylinders, it is high performance; the turbo adds heat; and it has complex prop and landing gear. All of these things almost double the minimum annual inspection over the cost of the Cherokee. More time to inspect landing gear, prop, turbo..... average basic annual inspection went from $600 to about $1175 not including any maintenance or parts other than oil change.

The total cost of maintenance for me, works out to about $4k per year (which includes some avionics upgrades six new cylinders). $16k ($10k of this was my top oh and upgraded avionics) to date but I expect to spend almost $4k soon to do annual and allowance for 2 ADs. So $20k over 5 years. at about 80-100 hrs a year.

So while I figured $10 per hour maintenance on the Cherokee, I hoped for about $20-30 per hour on the Comanche, I have spent closer to $50 per hour on the Comanche. Again half of this was discretionary or Turbo related. If i take out Turbo costs, OH TOP, and Avionics then my hourly maintenance would be $25 per hour or less on 100 hrs a year flying.

I cannot speak for a 182, I would not get a turbo if I didn't need it regularly as it really does increase costs but the main savings here is the landing gear maintenance and inspections cost savings (between 182 and Comanche).

I believe that a Traveler would be similar maintenance to a Cherokee.

I believe you can maintain an Arrow or Cardinal RG for about $25 per hour maintenance. I am not talking about engine reserves nor avionics upgrades. So buy it like you want it.

PS my maintenance reflects my willingness to dig in and be an active chaser of most effective price and methods, join type clubs and work with experts where necessary. If you just drop the plane off and write checks your costs will not likely be as low as mine have been unless you are lucky.

Also since my costs are based on Midwest prices and began 9 years ago there could be a 10-20% difference today or in higher cost of living environments. If you live in NYC or LA you might double the cost, I don't know??? I pay mechanics from $55-75 per hour.
 
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Your biggest nightmare on old aircraft..

Cowling from a 1948 Cessna.
 

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Your biggest nightmare on old aircraft..

Cowling from a 1948 Cessna.


Aww... Don't worry about that.. It's just surface corrosion...

There is a guy named Tom, out on the west coast that can buff that right off and sign the logbooks to cure the issues..:);)
 
Aww... Don't worry about that.. It's just surface corrosion...

There is a guy named Tom, out on the west coast that can buff that right off and sign the logbooks to cure the issues..:);)
Thankfully that's not in the main wing spar carry thru.
 
I don't believe that is an approved repair for Cessna cowlings.

Arc-spraying, on .025 2024 T3 ?:rofl:

Why not? What would be unapproved about it? Does the metal have to be tempered? Maybe you wouldn't want to start with 130 amps, but it could be done. :yes:
 
I understand you don't know what "T3" means?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_aluminium_alloy

wonder what will happen to the alclad when you Arc-Spray over it?

Uh - that's why I asked if it had to be tempered, so yes I do know what the T3 means. I"m sure the tempering can be done after the metal is sprayed as well.

I've used thermal spray on steel exhaust headers that were later tempered, so it can be done on Al as well. If you don't want to do that, fine with me, but it's one avenue that is available.
 
Uh - that's why I asked if it had to be tempered, so yes I do know what the T3 means. I"m sure the tempering can be done after the metal is sprayed as well.

I've used thermal spray on steel exhaust headers that were later tempered, so it can be done on Al as well. If you don't want to do that, fine with me, but it's one avenue that is available.

Remove the corrosion depots and treat your good to go.

the hole can get patched.
 
NA C182 with LR tanks. All the room you'll want plus the range you need.

Get an oxygen setup for when flying one or two people. Fly in the low teens and get free speed. On multi-hour flights like your commute getting high is to your benefit.

My commute is shorter than yours at 500nm round trip but I still clear 10k every chance I get.

1960s era birds with less than 5000 TTAF and less than 1000 SMOH are in your budget.

If you NEED complex time building then an older C210 is right.
 
I missed this forum, thought I would come back and report that I did find a plane. Slightly broke the budget though: 1987 Mooney 252 TSE Encore conversion.

I've started IFR traning, since my cross countries are pretty limited with just a VFR rating.
 
I missed this forum, thought I would come back and report that I did find a plane. Slightly broke the budget though: 1987 Mooney 252 TSE Encore conversion.

I've started IFR traning, since my cross countries are pretty limited with just a VFR rating.

One of the best Mooneys. It's a great IFR machine. Good luck with your training.
 
Mooney will get you there pretty quick on low fuel burn.
 
The Tigers are looking better all the time. Downside with those are the cooling issues, so I'd want a low-time or a runout engine that I could overhaul myself.

Spent some time looking at C182s today. They fit the price/performance/load/range requirement, but they're not nearly as efficient as the Tiger (or the Mooney, obviously).

My instructor has a very nice Comanche 260. I hadn't thought seriously about them before now. They'll carry a load, and appear to have good range with the 90gal tanks, which most seem to have.

I'm guessing 14+ gph @ 10,500 and 145 ktas?

Looking to posdibly buy a Comanche as well. They seem to have the right combination of load and speed. Only interested if the right one comes along.
 
My Comanche is still for sale.

50k, and the tip tanks (10k install) are already on it.
 
I missed this forum, thought I would come back and report that I did find a plane. Slightly broke the budget though: 1987 Mooney 252 TSE Encore conversion.

I've started IFR traning, since my cross countries are pretty limited with just a VFR rating.


Good For you. Plenty of speed by the time you have your IFR you will be cruising good.
 
Looking to posdibly buy a Comanche as well. They seem to have the right combination of load and speed. Only interested if the right one comes along.

I go to most midstates Comanche fly ins monthly. PM me what the right one is and I will be glad to give you heads up as I come across them.

Many Comanches are for sale but not necessarily listed because of the general condition of aviation.
 
The old Cherokee 6 300 would do the op's mission really well.

and Brien 23 has one for sale at the op's price range.
 
The old Cherokee 6 300 would do the op's mission really well.

and Brien 23 has one for sale at the op's price range.

I wouldn't wish a Cherokee Six on my worst enemy
 
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