What should I have done? (Long)

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hyphen81

Pre-takeoff checklist
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hyphen81
So today was my second solo flight, and I opted to fly from my home base of Smyrna, TN (KMQY) to Lebanon (M54).

The winds were calm and I was cleared for takeoff from runway 1 at MQY. Had some difficulties with the radio/gps on the way up to Lebanon and got a little frazzled, (even mistakenly announced myself on what I thought was lebanon's Unicom but I hadn't switched it over and was still on smyrna tower's frequency...oops!). Anyway, so I finally got things situated with the radios and must've forgotten to really pay attention to the ATIS for Lebanon bc I couldn't tell you what it said about the winds. But Lebanon is only a few minutes from Smyrna, and it was 7:30 in the morning and everything was super calm, so I wasn't too worried about it at the time.

Well I got close to Lebanon and was overflying the field when I realized I didn't know which runway to use since Lebanon is uncontrolled. I looked at the windsock and it wasn't showing any wind, so I assumed it didn't really matter. Lebanon is a single runway on the same heading as Smyrna (1 & 19), so in my head I thought I'd just use the same runway as Smyrna although since there wasn't any wind i didn't think it would matter. I somehow ended up using 19 instead of 1, but I figured again, not much wind, no one in the pattern, not a big deal.

So as I'm on downwind I hear another guy announcing he's overflying the field and plans on entering downwind for runway 1. I let him know I'm on downwind for 19, and he says it's no problem and he'll line up for runway 19 as well.

I go ahead and do a total of 3 attempts to land, one of which I had to go around. The landings felt different for some reason and I don't know if I had a tail wind or not. during one of my landings I looked at the wind sock and it was totally limp but was in the direction of giving me a tail wind. At this point another plane had entered the pattern.

So here I was, the first guy in the pattern, and I thought maybe I should be landing the other direction. What if anything did I do wrong here? Or was this not a big deal at all? What would I do if I were in the sand situation but the winds kicked up and there was a noticeable tailwind? Would i call the other pilots and suggest we switch to the other runway assuming all we're staying in the pattern?


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Welcome to the real world of flying! :lol:

The runway to use is up to you. Calm winds are a situation where accidents can happen because pilots will pick any runway. Be extra careful when winds are calm. Keep your eyes and ears open. NORADS (no radios) can make things interesting.

You have discovered what most new pilots discover. You need to do your "homework" 30 miles or more out so your situational awareness is up to speed. You will become better at knowing what you need to know as time goes on.
 
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I also felt bad about it because it kind of seemed like I set these other guys up to land with a tail wind, albeit a slight one, but still. It probably didn't matter to them as they were probably much more experienced, but I want to be safe and responsible and help other people do the same.


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Great post None of this seemed like it was a big deal. You announced your intentions, another A/C changed his plan to match yours. Sounds like it worked like it is supposed to.

Remember, each pilot is PIC, so you have to figure out what works best for you and the others have to do the same for them. If the wind sock was indeed limp, my take is that there wasn't enough wind to make a difference in the runway you chose.

My criticism, tempered by your lack of experience, is that you lost a bit of situational awareness. That will come with time and experience. If you lack or lost SA, slow down and/or delay your entry into the traffic pattern until you have it sorted out. A 360 can do wonders!
 
hyphen81 said:
I also felt bad about it because it kind of seemed like I set these other guys up to land with a tail wind, albeit a slight one, but still. It probably didn't matter to them as they were probably much more experienced, but I want to be safe and responsible and help other people do the same.


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Nah, they are PIC in their plane and you are PIC in yours.

What you have just described has probably happened to everyone on this board who is post solo. I've done it.

I have been landing 35 when others were landing 17 and I stuck to my guns and flew another pattern and let them land so I could use 35 as the ATIS suggested.

And one important thing. You can always ask "Hey guys I am student pilot, what is the preferred calm wind runway?" but really, try and get that information before you go if you can.

You really are fine. What you did today is learn. That's good.
 
***Warning: potential stupid question***. So does every airport have a "calm wind" runway? Is that a thing? Like I could look it up in the AFD?


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In the OP's situation, if I wanted to change direction, I would just announce it, letting the other guys in the pattern have right of way. They may choose to land with the "tailwind" or follow.

Plain English works well here.
 
iflyvfr said:
My criticism, tempered by your lack of experience, is that you lost a bit of situational awareness. That will come with time and experience. If you lack or lost SA, slow down and/or delay your entry into the traffic pattern until you have it sorted out. A 360 can do wonders!
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I definitely did lose my SA. My first pattern was really rough bc I was still trying to get it back. In hindsight I should've just flown out a ways and then came back once I had my head on straight.



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JoeSelch said:
In the OP's situation, if I wanted to change direction, I would just announce it, letting the other guys in the pattern have right of way. They may choose to land with the "tailwind" or follow.

Plain English works well here.
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How would that work in a nuts and bolts kind of way? I just say, hey I'm going to switch runways and then make a long right crosswind and swing around to enter a 45 degree downwind for 19?


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hyphen81 said:
***Warning: potential stupid question***. So does every airport have a "calm wind" runway? Is that a thing? Like I could look it up in the AFD?


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Not a stupid question at all, but no at most airports calm wind means "ya'll be careful out there now".
 
hyphen81 said:
How would that work in a nuts and bolts kind of way? I just say, hey I'm going to switch runways and then make a long right crosswind and swing around to enter a 45 degree downwind for 19?


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If you are on (or set up for) a left downwind for 01, then announce that you are on a left upwind for 19.
 
You have asked some good questions, and gotten some good answers. Hang in there and keep asking questions and it will eventually fall in place. Some airports do have preferred calm wind runways, usually for noise abatement. as PIC HOWEVER you decide.

Keep at it! And keep asking questions.
 
The A/FD will let you know if there is a preferred calm-wind runway. Some airports have them, some don't. I think it's mainly for noise abatement - might as well use the runway most convenient for the neighbors when wind is no factor.
 
This doesn't appear to be the case at M54, but some runways have a significant slope. If you land on a downslope, that can feel a lot like landing with a tailwind. Worth checking out in the A/FD, and if it's calm then you'll want to land uphill.
 
I see nothing out of the norm in your post for anyone here. Especially just at solo. You learned things you're supposed to go learn when cleared to solo. And the learning doesn't stop after the Private ride, or any other.

I've had Unicoms come on and announce that "the calm wind preferred runway is X" even without it published in the A/FD, after I announced ten miles out that I would be landing the opposite direction. I still flew over and looked at the sock before changing runways. My airplane, my landing. Usually I'll switch, but if I look down and the sock is the other direction, nope.

Not being prepared to arrive a good distance out, is a common early pilot mistake and I've seen it continue into old pilot mistake/habit. You've got the right idea though. You could have simply overflown and flew a ways out and gotten ready, as long as you've got the gas. Don't pressure yourself into landing just because there's an airport ahead.

Wait until you get a day when the wind keeps shifting and there's five in the pattern. Ha. That gets entertaining. :) Sometimes it's just better to leave the pattern and let the remaining four sort it out.
 
Geico266 said:
Welcome to the real world of flying! :lol:

The runway to use is up to you. Calm winds are a situation where accidents can happen because pilots will pick any runway. Be extra careful when winds are calm. Keep your eyes and ears open. NORADS (no radios) can make things interesting.

You have discovered what most new pilots discover. You need to do your "homework" 30 miles or more out so your situational awareness is up to speed. You will become better at knowing what you need to know as time goes on.
Click to expand...

NORADs? Shall we play a game?
 
pericynthion said:
This doesn't appear to be the case at M54, but some runways have a significant slope. If you land on a downslope, that can feel a lot like landing with a tailwind. Worth checking out in the A/FD, and if it's calm then you'll want to land uphill.
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Another thing that might have contributed was I didn't have my 200 lb CFI, and I only had 17 gallons of fuel. So it was probably the lightest I've ever flown the airplane. Perhaps that was contributing to things feeling weird. I definitely struggle to get the plane down sometimes which has been the cause of my 2 go arounds, one on each of my solo flights. I've finally learned to pull the power off completely way earlier.


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hyphen81 said:
Another thing that might have contributed was I didn't have my 200 lb CFI, and I only had 17 gallons of fuel. So it was probably the lightest I've ever flown the airplane. Perhaps that was contributing to things feeling weird. I definitely struggle to get the plane down sometimes which has been the cause of my 2 go arounds, one on each of my solo flights. I've finally learned to pull the power off completely way earlier.
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Such is the journey of learning to fly.:) We all learn at our own pace and in our own way. Group discussion can be a useful learning tool because it helps others learn as well.

Sounds like you're making good choices and thinking things through post-flight to learn what you can.
 
Only thing I might add is that I am not bashfull about breaking off my approach to the field if it just doesn't feel right.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
And one important thing. You can always ask "Hey guys I am student pilot, what is the preferred calm wind runway?" but really, try and get that information before you go if you can.
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I agree the OP is fine. 6PC your point about getting the information before you go is a good one. OP, did you check the A/FD before you left, or previously, for a published no wind preferred runway? Usually that is done when the airport is near a noise sensitive area, for noise abatement purposes. [oops - lots of other reasons to have a preferred no wind runway - see post #22 for one example. :redface:] If not there, you are the PIC and just select the best runway for you, fit yourself into the pattern(s) and land.

The other planes followed you because the choice didn't matter to them in a material way. You did good!

-Skip
 
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The airport I train out of has a definite preferred runway in clam winds. For two reasons.
1. it is the up-slope side of a single runway. 2. it has much better obstacle clearances if you do a touch and go or last second go-around. Now my CFI did say he actually prefers the other direction at night, because deer will occasionally run onto the initial portion of the preferred runway at night, and they have had aircraft hit deer.
 
I'm going out on a limb here. The OP said it was his second solo flight and "he chose to fly" to a different airport.

Hopefully with his CFIs approval and log book endorsement for the XC. And yes, CFI can approve an endorsement for operations between two airports for a student pilot. If the CFI had known, then all of his questions should have been asked and reviewed by the CFI before he left on the flight.
 
hyphen81 said:
So does every airport have a "calm wind" runway?
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While this was already answered accurately I'll give you something to think about. Does the runway have a slope? Does one end have obstacles that the other doesn't have? If you lost your engine on climb out, which runway has more options?

These are just a few examples of some things you might want to consider on the days where you can choose any runway. I'll even use a runway with a few knots of tail wind if topographical conditions are more favorable.
 
Get in cockpit weather like on a 496 with XM.

Then you can always look at the altimeter, station winds and direction way before you get there.

If it's dead calm, we tend to use 16 instead of 34 in our neck of the woods because the prevailing winds are from the SouthWest most always.
 
hyphen81 said:
I also felt bad about it because it kind of seemed like I set these other guys up to land with a tail wind, albeit a slight one, but still. It probably didn't matter to them as they were probably much more experienced, but I want to be safe and responsible and help other people do the same.


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If you felt this was in issue you could have advised the others of a slight tail wind. When the wind is blowing there is no dispute. You did fine, and it is nice to know you are concerned about other pilots.

On another note, practice tail wind landings. See how much runway is eaten up by the tailwwind, and how fast the ground rushes by. It is amazing and good practice. Remember, airspeed is everything!. :yes:
 
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hyphen81 said:
***Warning: potential stupid question***. So does every airport have a "calm wind" runway? Is that a thing? Like I could look it up in the AFD?


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No. If they do, it's usually for noise abatement. But ALWAYS read it, along with NOTAMs.

At an uncontrolled field, it's your option. Sometimes there are things that make the choice for you, like obstructions, terrain, or meat missiles (skydivers). At two local airports here, the shorter of the two runways is frequently used by gliders. They fly much lower patterns and stop on the runway.

It doesn't sound like you had significant wind on the ground, but you might have at altitude. It doesn't have to be the same. Or perhaps you were just fast. Approach speed is a bit slower solo than with the instructor's fat butt, especially in a really light airplane like a 152.
 
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BillTIZ said:
I'm going out on a limb here. The OP said it was his second solo flight and "he chose to fly" to a different airport.



Hopefully with his CFIs approval and log book endorsement for the XC. And yes, CFI can approve an endorsement for operations between two airports for a student pilot. If the CFI had known, then all of his questions should have been asked and reviewed by the CFI before he left on the flight.
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This is an airport we fly to often and I'm signed off to fly solo between MQY and M54. the phrasing of my initial post makes it sound like I just decided to go there, but I guess what I meant was that I decided to do that versus just going to the practice area and doing maneuvers.

I've looked up M54 in the A/FD, but never noticed anything about a calm wind runway or anything.

This hadn't come up before with my CFI because there's always been wind when we've been up together, and I never thought to ask.


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hyphen81 said:
This is an airport we fly to often and I'm signed off to fly solo between MQY and M54. the phrasing of my initial post makes it sound like I just decided to go there, but I guess what I meant was that I decided to do that versus just going to the practice area and doing maneuvers.

I've looked up M54 in the A/FD, but never noticed anything about a calm wind runway or anything.

This hadn't come up before with my CFI because there's always been wind when we've been up together, and I never thought to ask.


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Thanks! :thumbsup:
 
Other items of note about a tail wind. If you are crabbed AWAY from the runway on base, then you're gonna have a tailwind on final.

And...your descent angle is less with a tail wind, you will have to come in lower, earlier than seems normal. And last but not least, of course, you will eat up more runway with a tailwind.
 
I don't try and full stall land with a tailwind. Just bring it in as smoothly as possible.
 
hyphen81 said:
Another thing that might have contributed was I didn't have my 200 lb CFI, and I only had 17 gallons of fuel. So it was probably the lightest I've ever flown the airplane. Perhaps that was contributing to things feeling weird. I definitely struggle to get the plane down sometimes which has been the cause of my 2 go arounds, one on each of my solo flights. I've finally learned to pull the power off completely way earlier.


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Lots of guys are giving you a pass which is nice of them. Bottom line is you need to be prepared to arrive at any airport. It seems you were totally unprepared to arrive at Lebanon( you had no clue what the weather was, no clue what runway to use) and that's just poor piloting honestly. Your learning so whatever, stuff happens and we all make mistakes but don't be as soft as some of these guys are being to you on yourself. A situation where you are not prepared is a bad one in flying as your mind should be focused on one thing at a time.

As far as the landing goes, being light may have something to do with it but in calm conditions you will float forever if your speeds are not right on. The plane does not get any help slowing down from the head wind so your approach becomes even more vital. I like calm winds but my best landings are usually on days with wind!
 
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At least you didn't have the humiliating reply after your downwind runway six call, "Cessna, there is no runway six at KXXX!" :eek:
 
You should have checked the AF/D for a calm wind runway, but other than that, it's really up to the pilots involved.

I have ZERO tolerance to airport managers who want to introduce ad hoc requirements without publishing them. While updating the info in the AF/D can be slow at times, it's still important to do so (I maintain the records for my airstrip).
 
Try not to ever feel bad picking the wrong runway in the boonies OP.

I went bouncing down the runway all sideways and stupid the other day because I listened to the stupid AWOS and it lied to me. It was home field, so I was relaxed and too dumb or lazy to cross-check or flyover the sock or look outside for the signs, so we had a rodeo with a quartering tailwind. What made it worse is, I was trimmed out and had planned to do a three pointer.

It's gonna happen. And if you drag your tail, and fly a lot, it's gonna happen a lot...
 
Using the Metal Landing Calculator would have eliminated the problem.
 
not sure if you said this in jest, but there is no such thing as left upwind, and i dont recommend making things up.
 
keep in mind too that most fields have more than one wind sock, and many times they do NOT agree or show the same thing!
 
hyphen81 said:
So today was my second solo flight, and I opted to fly from my home base of Smyrna, TN (KMQY) to Lebanon (M54).

The winds were calm and I was cleared for takeoff from runway 1 at MQY. Had some difficulties with the radio/gps on the way up to Lebanon and got a little frazzled, (even mistakenly announced myself on what I thought was lebanon's Unicom but I hadn't switched it over and was still on smyrna tower's frequency...oops!). Anyway, so I finally got things situated with the radios and must've forgotten to really pay attention to the ATIS for Lebanon bc I couldn't tell you what it said about the winds. But Lebanon is only a few minutes from Smyrna, and it was 7:30 in the morning and everything was super calm, so I wasn't too worried about it at the time.

Well I got close to Lebanon and was overflying the field when I realized I didn't know which runway to use since Lebanon is uncontrolled. I looked at the windsock and it wasn't showing any wind, so I assumed it didn't really matter. Lebanon is a single runway on the same heading as Smyrna (1 & 19), so in my head I thought I'd just use the same runway as Smyrna although since there wasn't any wind i didn't think it would matter. I somehow ended up using 19 instead of 1, but I figured again, not much wind, no one in the pattern, not a big deal.

So as I'm on downwind I hear another guy announcing he's overflying the field and plans on entering downwind for runway 1. I let him know I'm on downwind for 19, and he says it's no problem and he'll line up for runway 19 as well.

I go ahead and do a total of 3 attempts to land, one of which I had to go around. The landings felt different for some reason and I don't know if I had a tail wind or not. during one of my landings I looked at the wind sock and it was totally limp but was in the direction of giving me a tail wind. At this point another plane had entered the pattern.

So here I was, the first guy in the pattern, and I thought maybe I should be landing the other direction. What if anything did I do wrong here? Or was this not a big deal at all? What would I do if I were in the sand situation but the winds kicked up and there was a noticeable tailwind? Would i call the other pilots and suggest we switch to the other runway assuming all we're staying in the pattern?


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You did the right thing initially. You look at the sock and the segmented circle for pattern if you don't have AF/D info already. You listen to CTAF to see what others are doing and where they are.

Then you figure out what RW you are gonna use, what pattern to fly, and when its your turn enter the pattern on a 45. If you can't make the landing, go around.

As long as you are on the RW or doing a go around, YOU have right of way. Make sure you are clear in your calls. If someone comes into the pattern ahead of you on a 45 while you are turning xwind for another try, then you should slow and let them land.

If the wind direction changes on your touch and go, then fly straight out and come into the pattern in the direction you want on a 45. As long as you are doing that, you will not interfere with others.
 
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