What should I do?

I love you too, son, and appreciate your help.

That old guy in Dallas who tried to help you with the jet gig seems like a really fine fellow, so if he wants the Mooney for $60k so I can close quickly on the house deal I suggest you just go ahead and sell it to him.

Love,

Dad

Well, I got the skinny from my dad today - the REAL reason he wants to sell it. It sounds like he found his dream house, and he needs another 60K otherwise he will have to pull money out of his retirement account (with some seriously negative tax implications) so he wants to sell it and use some of the money for that - he has done so much for me, it's time for me to help him.

And in the off chance that he ever reads this, I love you dad.
 
What if you decide you want to do something else?

Then I'll do something else? At this point it'd be a rather silly idea given what I currently make along with the opportunity I have in front of me. Not like a computer science degree would be relevant if I decided to do something else anyways.
 
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A number of other fields offer a shot at the corner office, and the good sales guys always seemed to invited to the big conventions at fancy resorts with good golf courses. I don't know where the engineers got to go.

Heh. Once upon a time, to geek conventions with ample alcohol. Nowadays, home to pet the dog. The convention money dried up long ago at most places. Exception: Government.
 
Then I'll do something else? At this point it'd be a rather silly idea given what I currently make along with the opportunity I have in front of me. Not like a computer science degree would be relevant if I decided to do something else anyways.

CS if you already know basic patterns of coding would be utterly useless. Learning to code a bubble sort in Java is about as interesting as watching paint dry, after you've coded for the real world.

That's one thing about IT. Most of the degree programs are teaching what you needed to know three years ago. Especially if you're already working in the field.

Often IT folk are far better off to buy certifications. And I say buy, because they're a racket. But they regularly trump degrees.

Being we are Linux geeks, the certifications are thin. Real thin. RedHat's completely screwed up their Cert program and made it a money mill, since they get government workers galore who are there on our dimes, and LPI is totally disorganized because they try to cover all major distros.

Best bet has always seemed to be keeping your name out there in the community in Unix. Never had a job yet that required a degree or a cert but they all required the nod from the senior admin.

Nowadays I now find myself making that nod or not, when we do hire admins (of both flavors), so the white hair must be showing more than it used to.

And honestly I spend more effort deciding if the person will fit the other personalities in the team more than their tech skills. I can teach the latter. I can only smooth ruffled feathers but not truly teach some geeks how to get along with others.

Most of these folks got only one thing out of any lame college attempt at "team projects"... they learned quickly that they'd done 80% of the knowledge work and the team got the credit. ;)
 
I'm not either, but will take the other side of the "college has no value other than as a trade school" argument.

A small-college accounting degree with high GPA got me a job with a Big 8 firm and a spot in law school. CPA practice and law school were incompatible, so didn't finish LS.

Experience and interest/aptitude for solving basic business problems helped snag a promotion to management services/consulting division and training for the new gig.

That combination helped get an entrepreneurial opportunity to start a new division with investment bank.

Division revenues grew from $50k/yr to $585 mil/yr. I was comped accordingly and I flew a series of GA planes for ~9,000 hours over 20+ years.

We introduced a product line for syndication of corporate jets and helicopters so I learned that business from the ground up.

'86 tax law killed depreciation swaps and my division disappeared overnight.
Oops, hadn't planned on starting over at 47. Now what?

Previous training/experience helped land a chairman/CEO gig at anther IB. That lasted five years during which I bought some businesses and hired people to run the day-to-day. Understanding the numbers allowed me to leverage my time favorably.

The other major shareholder died unexpectedly, bickering over key man life proceeds ensued. I split and started doing turn-around CEO gigs. Found they were fun at first but became lots of work, so resumed consulting biz. Worked on acquiring some deals in Canada for a friend who had a King Air, so started flying it. Over time helped him with several plane deals, ended up with Citation 550.

Learned that the local 142 needed part-time IP's, so signed up and negotiated a free type rating in one of the jets. Continued the acquisition work, ended up working some G-V deals and getting type rating. Parlayed that into helping SFI get their DPE trained, helped tweak handling qualities of the sim and was a member of the first IP class.

Used all that to promote the current business that I think most would consider "a bird's nest on the ground and nobody has beat you to the eggs"

So yeah, I'd probably get the degree again. YMMV



i
I'm not going to tell young David what to do.

I will, however, say that if I had everything to do over again, I'd skip the degrees. Seriously. All they do is cover a few square feet of wall space. The only courses that have been consistently useful were my English comp and math courses. I could have taken those courses individually, without matriculating and wasting all that time studying irrelevant crap merely to satisfy the schools' degree requirements. That time would have been better spent studying things that are actually useful.

The U.S. higher education system is a racket. With few exceptions (engineering being one), most "majors" comprise only about one-quarter of a student's work. By design, undergrad students spend from one-half to three-quarters of their time (and money) studying stuff that is irrelevant to their majors, including some courses that no student in his or her right mind would waste time with save for the fact that they're part of the required "core curriculum."

The education industry says this system of "liberal education" exists to create well-rounded, thoughtful graduates who are conversant in a broad range of disciplines. I say it's a scam to make bachelor's degrees useless for any purpose other than enrolling in more-expensive graduate programs.

So again, I'm not offering any advice to David about his education, but speaking for myself, I would skip matriculation and take only the courses in which I had an interest or which had some professional usefulness to me. And oh, I also would have as much fun as possible.

-Rich
 
So yeah, I'd probably get the degree again. YMMV

You made it work for you as have others who didn't go that route.

Serious question: What did the Accountung degree cost in rough numbers as a percentage of your first year's annual salary plus benefits (if any) back then, and if the school still exists, what does it cost today?

I suspect it'll be roughly 3.5x higher but that's just a guess from listening to the parents of family members grouse over tuition lately.

As an IB type, is the current price today, worth what you are likely to receive in return, even if you are a "go getter" type?

I ask out of curiosity. I'm watching some talented young friends rack up some crippling debt loads right now, and I truly think 4 out of 5 will end up defaulting on their loans or deferring them well into their 30s or even 40s, just doing quick calculations against what I expect they'll actually earn.

One just designed a walking stick that generates electricity while you hike and his college team already has a patent application in for it.

Pretty neat for college kids, and he was slightly taken aback when I asked how they'd Market it... and shared that there's a large percentage of the population who wants to be completely unplugged when hiking and others who would leave food home and carry a generator in their backpack for a week just so they could try to Tweet about their backpacking trip. Heh.

Typical engineer, he hadn't given a second of thought to his sales pitch. The "I just build stuff" engineering mentality. ;) ;) ;)

Looks like the kid can design, build, and test and even create stuff that actually has a purpose. But he's going to have a bill larger than a new imported sportscar in debt, hanging around his neck when he gets finished, even with parental monetary support. Maybe more.

How long until that pile of government-backed loans collapses, or does the ability to defer them lessen that risk?
 
I think the sad truth is, though that the BA is used as a screening too. You can't really become a CEO without one. Getting in the door is tough without one.

Unless you have access to enough knowledge and capital already to become a successful entrepreneur, the difference in lifetime earnings between one with a BA vs one without are staggering. Why to you think parent line up to spend the oodles of $$s on their kids?

At oldest daughter's commencement, in 2010, in the cold May rain, the president of the university announced, "....and I welcome you into the fellowship of educated men and women. If there ever was at time to thank your parents it is now!" She is a modern dancer living in NYC and working I.T. By training she's an anthropologist, in Margaret Mead's department. "well connected to the degree, huh?"

Actually, yes. The company uses her to report on how the customers use their web tools. :)

That's true, unfortunately. Once upon a time, a lot of companies administered "aptitude tests" before hiring people. They're not used much in the private sector anymore because they tend to trigger lawsuits; so the Bachelor's degree is used for screening to reduce the likelihood of hiring a moron.

That being said, I once hired a kid with a freshly-minted degree in I.T. who didn't know how to install a network card or crimp an Ethernet connector. I couldn't help wonder how someone could spend four years studying computers and not learn those things, even if by accident, somewhere along the way.

-Rich
 
And you get to spend all day every day staring at bad teeth and smelling bad breath. Be still my heart.

Sooooo, I guess you wouldn't support the idea of becoming an OB/Gyn either?
 
Even after 40 years in the IT environment, I am still asked for details about my college experience, which is over 35 years ago. It's not MY resume that the companies are padding. It's theirs. It is as if the experience means little to the customers they are courting. And really, what does 35 year old college experience bring that 40 years in day to day technology doesn't?
As to David's current dilemma, if Dad needs money for his dream, go help him out. Sell the plane, rent until YOU can afford new wings. Give Dad whatever it takes from the Mooney to satisfy his dream.
At some point in time, children need to give back. Seems you got that figured out.
 
It's been very interesting to see the arguments over careers in this thread.
 
You made it work for you as have others who didn't go that route.

Yep, Bill Gates obviously did pretty well without a degree. The primary difference between us is that he's smart.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Serious question: What did the Accountung degree cost in rough numbers as a percentage of your first year's annual salary plus benefits (if any) back then, and if the school still exists, what does it cost today?

No clue. I played and coached, so the athletic department paid for school. Santa Fe RR summer job paid for spending money.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

I suspect it'll be roughly 3.5x higher but that's just a guess from listening to the parents of family members grouse over tuition lately.

I'd guess it's at least that much. The cost of books is much greater than the stone tablets used when I was there.

As an IB type, is the current price today, worth what you are likely to receive in return, even if you are a "go getter" type?

Oh yeah, big time. REALLLY big-time. Very few hit a big lick immediately, but it doesn't take long.

I ask out of curiosity. I'm watching some talented young friends rack up some crippling debt loads right now, and I truly think 4 out of 5 will end up defaulting on their loans or deferring them well into their 30s or even 40s, just doing quick calculations against what I expect they'll actually earn.

If they were just a little bit careful they could avoid much of the debt. Dave Ramsey has made a fortune advising people who incur more debt than they should. The financial planning industry started in the '60's, largely in response to the propensity to "still have month left over at the end of my money." Being under water isn't new. We weren't smarter, the primary reason people of my generation didn't have college debt is that the loans weren't available.

How long until that pile of government-backed loans collapses, or does the ability to defer them lessen that risk?

I'm not a student of the loan programs, and have no idea where it ends. Like all such programs, they are good examples of lack of restraint and failure to plan. With the aid programs and jobs available, I know that most if not all of the debt can be avoided. My GK at Princeton will graduate free and clear.
 
I'm not going to tell young David what to do.

I will, however, say that if I had everything to do over again, I'd skip the degrees. Seriously. All they do is cover a few square feet of wall space. The only courses that have been consistently useful were my English comp and math courses. I could have taken those courses individually, without matriculating and wasting all that time studying irrelevant crap merely to satisfy the schools' degree requirements. That time would have been better spent studying things that are actually useful.

The U.S. higher education system is a racket. With few exceptions (engineering being one), most "majors" comprise only about one-quarter of a student's work. By design, undergrad students spend from one-half to three-quarters of their time (and money) studying stuff that is irrelevant to their majors, including some courses that no student in his or her right mind would waste time with save for the fact that they're part of the required "core curriculum."

The education industry says this system of "liberal education" exists to create well-rounded, thoughtful graduates who are conversant in a broad range of disciplines. I say it's a scam to make bachelor's degrees useless for any purpose other than enrolling in more-expensive graduate programs.

So again, I'm not offering any advice to David about his education, but speaking for myself, I would skip matriculation and take only the courses in which I had an interest or which had some professional usefulness to me. And oh, I also would have as much fun as possible.

-Rich

My degree was the best investment I ever made. Can someone do the job I do without it? Sure but I haven't met many people without a degree who went to the trouble to gain such a fine grained understanding of the subject matter. which leaves them just repeating something they were shown how to do and not creatively solving the problems because of a detailed understanding. I have found that the degree program I went through to be superior to the new grads we're hiring today. It seems the colleges are looking more and more like high tech vocational schools and churning out skill sets the industry wants to see instead of subjet matter experts. When I was designing and building my own MIPS processor, writing compilers, designing and implementing my own programming language, proving runtime algorithms correct etc... They were learning the SAP CRM module, learning MVC, Hibernate, IOC, differences in .NET versions etc...
 
My opinion is that school vs no school has a lot less to do with ones success than what is suggested here. A college degree is correlated with success, I don't think it's causal. (Like how being a member of COPA can keep you from crashing your cirrus)

Serious question: What did the Accountung degree cost in rough numbers as a percentage of your first year's annual salary plus benefits (if any) back then, and if the school still exists, what does it cost today?

In 1991, beginning big 6 salary was about 27k. Tuition for 4 years at Cal was $5,600. This does not include beer money.
 
In 1991, beginning big 6 salary was about 27k. Tuition for 4 years at Cal was $5,600. This does not include beer money.
In 1979 tuition for 4 years at Cal was probably less than $3,000 and I think I made at least twice that amount the first year I worked even though it wasn't in the field I studied. The fact that I had a degree helped me get the job, though.

Of course it depends on what David want to do eventually but if he wants to be competitive in the higher levels of aviation a degree will be a good thing to have on his resume.
 
I would like to make it clear that I'm not "arguing" and have no doubt David will NEED a degree in the Aviation field. It's almost not optional right now. That comes and goes.

I'm simply relating that many degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on... unless they are a requirement and lead to better things, which is also what Wayne said his was for, in the grand scheme of his career.

I'm more interested in the false economy created by massive loans and the resulting increase in prices that doesn't match the reality of the salary expected from most degree programs.

"Free money" creates a twisted Market that is disconnected from the untility of the product being sold.

And in the case of "IT" degrees, specifically, they're usually based on badly written curricula that often don't cover current practices or techniques. There's exceptions to that generality, of course... especially at top schools. Reviewing Carnegie-Mellon or MIT's online videos of their advanced coursework shows those schools are keeping up and even advancing tech, but I suspect a majority of IT schools are teaching stuff from the past. Even if the past was only last year.

As far as the comment that school brings out creativity...? Not sure I'm buying that one. Sounds like a good Marketing spin, though. Plenty of non-creative grads and non-grads and plenty of creative folk in both circumstances. They're unrelated.

And quite frankly, you need both to run an IT shop. The creative types do an awful job at hardware and software audits. It bores them to death. You really don't want a creative type in charge of keeping track of an Enterprise level patch management system, for example. You may want them to target how to speed up a particular audit process that's manual labor intensive, or something similar... But the day to day tracking and maintenance, they'll blow it and have a complete mess of disorganized crap after about six months when they start getting lazy about it because they're "too good" to be really looking at the output of their automated reports they built, and checking them for sanity.

Back to David. I don't think he knows what he wants to do yet in life, with the caveat that almost nobody his age will ever do the same job for more than seven years. A stint at a larger college provides insights into "what's going on" out there. Also provides Networking with new groups of people, and of course that strange comraderie of an Alma Matter which has garnered a number of people I've worked with over the years, jobs... Even if they weren't qualified for them.

(One company I worked for was almost exclusively run by USAFA grads. They had some huge blind spots due to their insular view of leadership and quite literally the company would have failed numerous times over if they hadn't hired a head of Engineering who came from a completely different world... Old-school AT&T. They were smart enough to lists to him and the company survived for a while.)

Nothing bad about going to a school to meet and network, but it's a damn expensive way to job shop right now. :)

David's situation is somewhat unique in that he has networking opportunities many do not. That's not a judgement or anything, just another fact to be weighed.
 
I think what we're all saying is, if there is a way to get the training that will improve your ability to earn without dragging an insurmountable debt behind you well into your 30's and maybe even 40's, that training should be pursued with the greatest vigor. The trend I notice is unless your major is one of a professional one, pre-med, pre-law, certs, etc. a Bachelor's degree is carrying the weight that a high school diploma did just 20 years ago and that's bad news for a majority of the "educated few".
 
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