What sells an airplane?

rpadula

rpadula

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Is it all about bottom line price nowadays?

Reading the avionics wish list thread makes me think panel lust is still high on the priority list. If your plane doesn't have the goods in the panel, does it make sense to install something(s) -- say a Garmin 430W -- to make it more palatable to unimaginative potential buyers? Or just drop the price?
 
I was looking for the major things that either couldn't be added or that it wasn't practical to add, which just comes down to the plane itself. De-ice and on-board radar were very important to me, and the fact that the plane I bought came with both was a requirement. I just wouldn't have bought it otherwise. The other thing was price, which was a very good deal.

I didn't care much about panel so long as it was functional, which was good since the panel I bought was functional, but still /U and very clacky. It's much better now. If I had seen a plane that was otherwise identical with a better panel, I would pay more for it, but not enough more to make buying the equipment worthwhile. Having a nice interior and respectable paint job were also big plusses, but unless the plane had genuinely awful variants of both, I don't think it will necessarily detract most buyers.

The things that are probably going to be worthwhile to someone who doesn't know the plane are the mechanics and appearance. If there are little things you can do that show that you care about the plane, then I'd do those. The first time I saw the Mooney I used to fly, there were a lot of things that made me question it. It's amazing what a couple hours with a bottle of touch-up paint, some sand paper, and some Krylon will do to change that, plus painting some plastic panels and such. I wouldn't suggest spending any significant money to improve a plane you're planning on selling, but a little time would likely prove worthwhile.
 
It's hard to get your money back by adding stuff prior to the sale. That's why you almost never see it done. The dealers can do it, at least on transportation-grade (vs.toys) airplanes because they buy them cheaply enough to install the stuff and make it work. Or that's their plan, anyway. Those who bought planes in mid 2008 just before the crash are in a world of hurt

rpadula said:
Is it all about bottom line price nowadays?

Reading the avionics wish list thread makes me think panel lust is still high on the priority list. If your plane doesn't have the goods in the panel, does it make sense to install something(s) -- say a Garmin 430W -- to make it more palatable to unimaginative potential buyers? Or just drop the price?
Click to expand...
 
When I looked at airplanes, it either had to be the way I wanted it, panel-wise, or the panel had no value to me.

Put another way - I'd pay the higher dollar value for an airplane that had EXACTLY what I wanted, but if it didn't, there was no value in having SOME of what I wanted.

Because the significant cost in a panel update is the labor of installation and integration, there's comparatively little value in the boxes themselves.

I'd prefer a plane with a strong engine and airframe, and a low price - that would let me have the money to rip out the existing panel and put in what I want.

In that respect, panels are like kitchens. You never get your money back in resale unless the buyer wants EXACTLY what you put in.
 
Personally, panel means bupkis to me, and when I buy, money and plane specs (speed, payload, etc) will be the driver.

For a panel? Handheld GPS and a radio stack is all I need.
 
The economics have changed to the point that you may end up re-thinking your priorities. The cost of a typical panel re-do (430W and autopilot, etc) can easily approach that of an engine rebuild. Hasn't always been like this.
TMetzinger said:
When I looked at airplanes, it either had to be the way I wanted it, panel-wise, or the panel had no value to me.

Put another way - I'd pay the higher dollar value for an airplane that had EXACTLY what I wanted, but if it didn't, there was no value in having SOME of what I wanted.

Because the significant cost in a panel update is the labor of installation and integration, there's comparatively little value in the boxes themselves.

I'd prefer a plane with a strong engine and airframe, and a low price - that would let me have the money to rip out the existing panel and put in what I want.

In that respect, panels are like kitchens. You never get your money back in resale unless the buyer wants EXACTLY what you put in.
Click to expand...
 
Well, another county heard from, here.

Speaking strictly for myself, I am on the hunt for two possibilities: a plane that has the things I have decided I need, at a competitive price though not at (or even near) the bottom; or a runout with old crap in the panel but with a solid core engine and airframe priced so cheaply that it makes it worth my while to outfit it the way I want it even though -as Wayne notes above - I may still end up behind the curve in the end. The question is by how much.

In other words at the end of the process I want an airplane with a solid low-corrosion airframe, decent paint and interior, low SMOH time on an OH I can trust, and everything I want in the panel, for not much more than the total market value, in this market. I am open to having that handed to me by the seller, or doing it myself. No problemo, right? :rofl: :rofl:
 
wabower said:
The economics have changed to the point that you may end up re-thinking your priorities. The cost of a typical panel re-do (430W and autopilot, etc) can easily approach that of an engine rebuild. Hasn't always been like this.
Click to expand...

That's my point - I'm gonna want it MY way, so if it's not MY way, I know I'm going to have to spend a lot of money to get it MY way, and thus the plane in it's present state is worth less to me, regardless of what's in the panel.
 
My four priorities in order of importance.

1. panel: is it up to date and have the gear the buyer wants

2. engine: either new, or well cared for with good logs. Or just run out and the airplane is priced accordingly

3. paint and interior: good shape/

4. attitude of the seller
 
wabower said:
The cost of a typical panel re-do (430W and autopilot, etc) can easily approach that of an engine rebuild. Hasn't always been like this.
Click to expand...

I don't about that. Since I bought my cherokee 140, a panel re-do
has always exceeded the cost of an engine rebuild.
 
rpadula said:
Is it all about bottom line price nowadays?

Reading the avionics wish list thread makes me think panel lust is still high on the priority list. If your plane doesn't have the goods in the panel, does it make sense to install something(s) -- say a Garmin 430W -- to make it more palatable to unimaginative potential buyers? Or just drop the price?
Click to expand...

My airplane has nothing in the panel.

He instills lust nevertheless.

However, he is not for sale. :D

Deb
 
rpadula said:
Is it all about bottom line price nowadays?

No,,,,,,, It's all about the aircraft and its ability to serve your purpose.

Reading the avionics wish list thread makes me think panel lust is still high on the priority list. If your plane doesn't have the goods in the panel, does it make sense to install something(s) -- say a Garmin 430W -- to make it more palatable to unimaginative potential buyers? Or just drop the price?
Click to expand...

When you are searching the market for the right aircraft the last thing you should look at is the price, because the cheap aircraft are the ones you can't afford.

As many know my F-24 is for sale, we had a buyer that offered the right price, and we accepted, the buyer and his wife and daughter flew up here at their expense, stayed two days in a motel, and inspected the aircraft from top to bottom, they loved it, wanted to buy it, BUT

When they sat in it, they were very squeezed, thus they could not use the aircraft as a family aircraft and did not buy.

Main lesson here, know which aircraft fits your mission, and balance that with the equipment list and cost.

Know what you need, know the proper selling price, and don't waste your, and your sellers time by being a tire kicker in the learning curve.
 
Price is number one for me.

If I can get a good price, I can do the engine/ panel/P&I the exact way I want it done.
 
Flyfishingpilot said:
Price is number one for me.

If I can get a good price, I can do the engine/ panel/P&I the exact way I want it done.
Click to expand...

Let's take a 172 priced at $40,000 vs. one priced at $60,000.

The one priced at $40,000 has a run-out engine and junk for avionics, the one at $60,000 has a new engine and good avionics. Good luck getting those two items for $20,000.

Purchase price on an airplane is only the entry fee.
 
Tom-D said:
When you are searching the market for the right aircraft the last thing you should look at is the price, because the cheap aircraft are the ones you can't afford.
Click to expand...

That is simply not true. Price and quality are not synonomous. Many variables cloud the equation. The buyer simply needs to know the difference.

As many know my F-24 is for sale, we had a buyer that offered the right price, and we accepted, the buyer and his wife and daughter flew up here at their expense, stayed two days in a motel, and inspected the aircraft from top to bottom, they loved it, wanted to buy it, BUT

When they sat in it, they were very squeezed, thus they could not use the aircraft as a family aircraft and did not buy.
Click to expand...

That can happen with many airplanes, and you may not know until you get there. A local guy who stands every bit of 5' 5" has a nice Cessna 340 with the seat cushions upholstered just right--for him. The rest of us lard's find it a bit snuggish.

Main lesson here, know which aircraft fits your mission, and balance that with the equipment list and cost.

Know what you need, know the proper selling price, and don't waste your, and your sellers time by being a tire kicker in the learning curve
Click to expand...
.
Click to expand...

The learning curve isn't a waste of time, it's why you go through the drill. Most buyers (of anything) know more about the in's-and-out's of what they're shopping for after they are in the market for a while. What you call tire-kickers might be what I call prospective buyers doing their due diligence and market research. If any logic was involved, none of us would be a the airport anyway.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Let's take a 172 priced at $40,000 vs. one priced at $60,000.

The one priced at $40,000 has a run-out engine and junk for avionics, the one at $60,000 has a new engine and good avionics. Good luck getting those two items for $20,000.

Purchase price on an airplane is only the entry fee.
Click to expand...

So, one's decision is whether to settle for the $60k airplane, or be willing to lay out $70k or higher for the best one i.e. the $40k plus the toys and OH. All while remembering that when it comes time to sell again one will need to suck it up and remember the good times instead of saying "I need to get x because that is what I have in it" ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Let's take a 172 priced at $40,000 vs. one priced at $60,000.

The one priced at $40,000 has a run-out engine and junk for avionics, the one at $60,000 has a new engine and good avionics. Good luck getting those two items for $20,000.

Purchase price on an airplane is only the entry fee.
Click to expand...

"Good" avionic is highly subjective. So I rather buy a plane at a low price, knowing that

1) I will send the engine for overhaul to someone I trust, and replace what I want to replace, upgrade what I want to upgrade.

2) Buy the electronics I want and place them where I want them.

It's all about getting things done the way I want it.

A plane is not an investment. It's a financial blackhole.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Let's take a 172 priced at $40,000 vs. one priced at $60,000.

The one priced at $40,000 has a run-out engine and junk for avionics, the one at $60,000 has a new engine and good avionics. Good luck getting those two items for $20,000.

Purchase price on an airplane is only the entry fee.
Click to expand...

Another scenario:

Identical year 182s.
Airplane A has a low time engine and stock panel (AI/DG, dual VOR, 1 with GS), and MB receiver)
Airplane B has a mid time engine, GNS430, HSI, old autopilot

Let's assume they're identically priced, rather than B being more expensive).

I'd rather have airplane A, because I KNOW I want a completely new radio stack, S-Tec autopilot, and a pair of Aspens.

So the panel upgrades owner B put on have NO value to me. To another buyer, airplane B may be perfect and he'd pay a premium for it.
 
The paint job is the most important factor in selling an airplane.
 
You would seriously consider dumping 52k into the panel of a 182?
TMetzinger said:
Another scenario:

Identical year 182s.
Airplane A has a low time engine and stock panel (AI/DG, dual VOR, 1 with GS), and MB receiver)
Airplane B has a mid time engine, GNS430, HSI, old autopilot

Let's assume they're identically priced, rather than B being more expensive).

I'd rather have airplane A, because I KNOW I want a completely new radio stack, S-Tec autopilot, and a pair of Aspens.

So the panel upgrades owner B put on have NO value to me. To another buyer, airplane B may be perfect and he'd pay a premium for it.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
You would seriously consider dumping 52k into the panel of a 182?
Click to expand...

Sure, if I get the equivalent operating capabilities of a new $400K+ 182 for say 130-140K.

An airplane is NOT an investment. It's an expense that MAY depreciate less than other assets
 
wabower said:
It's hard to get your money back by adding stuff prior to the sale. That's why you almost never see it done.
Click to expand...
Sure, but does it tip the plane towards selling?

For example, a plane Vrefs at $50k with OK radios. Buyers these days pass it right by because it doesn't have a 430W and many for sale do. Is it better to spend $10k installing one to now be selling a plane that Vrefs for $55k? (Net to seller $45k) Or just drop the price to $45k? Which is the bigger pool of potential buyers?

I'm hearing pretty schizo here -- tear it all out and put it the way I like, or buy with everything already in the panel.
 
What sells an airplane is what sells anything. A buyer willing to pay what a seller is willing to accept. All the rest is subjective and open to hours of conjecture, debate and personal preferences.
 
Consider the source. How much of it are you hearing from guys who trade airplanes regularly? or ever? When D. K. Royal coached at Texas, he said "when your record is 9 and 1, nobody ever asks you who the 9 were." Buyers will always have their wish list, and be quick to point out what they want that your airplane doesn't have. Most airplanes have no chance of meeting all of their specs.

Here's the test. Go through all the listings you have been perusing and see how much money individual owners have spent to make their airplanes market-ready. They either sell them or they don't, but nobody spends any money on them. You buys them "as is-where is" or you's doesn't buys them.

I appraised a 182 for a buyer a few weeks ago. It had pretty decent leather seats, but I'll guarantee none of them had been cleaned or treated with conditioner since the war ended (of 1812).

rpadula said:
Sure, but does it tip the plane towards selling?

For example, a plane Vrefs at $50k with OK radios. Buyers these days pass it right by because it doesn't have a 430W and many for sale do. Is it better to spend $10k installing one to now be selling a plane that Vrefs for $55k? (Net to seller $45k) Or just drop the price to $45k? Which is the bigger pool of potential buyers?

I'm hearing pretty schizo here -- tear it all out and put it the way I like, or buy with everything already in the panel.
Click to expand...
 
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rpadula said:
I'm hearing pretty schizo here -- tear it all out and put it the way I like, or buy with everything already in the panel.
Click to expand...

That's because there's no one-size-fits-all for buyers, and in a market like GA, there may not even be a one-size-fits-most.

Edit: Wayne's right about considering the source. I'm probably not typical. Buying an airplane is a lot like buying a house - a buyer spends a lot of effort finding one that "fits". Sellers have to adjust their price based on the market and how close to "comparable" houses are priced.

There's a reason successful realtors move houses, and successful brokers move airplanes. They have reasonable expectations for what the market will bear for the product. Usually neither buyers nor sellers have these expectations, probably due to the emotional investment in the product.

So if your plane isn't selling, you might want to consult an expert - a successful aircraft broker.
 
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rpadula said:
Is it all about bottom line price nowadays?

Reading the avionics wish list thread makes me think panel lust is still high on the priority list. If your plane doesn't have the goods in the panel, does it make sense to install something(s) -- say a Garmin 430W -- to make it more palatable to unimaginative potential buyers? Or just drop the price?
Click to expand...

When I'm looking, the key is always a clean airframe. I don't care how much in bells and whistles it has if te airframe is corroded or damaged. There is zero recoup in airframe repair costs, and actually undermines the value. There is an exception to this though and that is when I can get a totally corroded and junked airframe that has bells and whistles I can salvage off of it to put on a good airframe. I bought a 421, totally unairworthy, for a guy once for considerably less than the panel and engine cores were worth. So we took the panel goodies out and put them in the clients 182, sold the engines, props, pilots side windshield, pressure regulator and bits and pieces and sent the air frame to the scrapper for a few hundred bucks. All told he had $1500 (less installation costs) in a panel that had a Cessna 400 AP, a HSI & FD and a newish Collins stack of radios.

Clean airframe is the key, everything else is negotiable. A nice new panel is nice indeed, but don't evaluate an aircraft by the panel.
 
FWIW, the local avionics installation guru says he has been doing a lot of 430 installs just so that people can sell their planes.

A GNS430 is almost considered required equipment these days.


rpadula said:
Is it all about bottom line price nowadays?

Reading the avionics wish list thread makes me think panel lust is still high on the priority list. If your plane doesn't have the goods in the panel, does it make sense to install something(s) -- say a Garmin 430W -- to make it more palatable to unimaginative potential buyers? Or just drop the price?
Click to expand...
 
FWIW, I think the disinclination to use brokers is understandable but somewhat misplaced. Those who specialize in certain make/model are often the best-informed and most knowledgeable sources of information and leads.

An airplane won't (or shouldn't) sell for a higher price because a broker represents it. They're worth what they're worth, even though the seller may choose to believe that the broker can somehow sell it at at a higher price point and therefore net the same price as if he sold it himself. The broker probably won't try to disavow the seller of that notion, and would obviously like for it to happen.

Most of them readily acknowledge they are facilitators rather than market-makers, and their value comes primarily from their ability to generate better exposure and effectively deal with the great unwashed.

TMetzinger said:
That's because there's no one-size-fits-all for buyers, and in a market like GA, there may not even be a one-size-fits-most.

Edit: Wayne's right about considering the source. I'm probably not typical. Buying an airplane is a lot like buying a house - a buyer spends a lot of effort finding one that "fits". Sellers have to adjust their price based on the market and how close to "comparable" houses are priced.

There's a reason successful realtors move houses, and successful brokers move airplanes. They have reasonable expectations for what the market will bear for the product. Usually neither buyers nor sellers have these expectations, probably due to the emotional investment in the product.

So if your plane isn't selling, you might want to consult an expert - a successful aircraft broker.
Click to expand...
 
TMetzinger said:
That's because there's no one-size-fits-all for buyers, and in a market like GA, there may not even be a one-size-fits-most.
Click to expand...
That's right. Some people like to buy fixer-upper houses for cheap and then put work into them to make them just the way they want them. Some people would rather have something they are more or less satisfied with right out of the box because they don't want to be bothered. I'm a more out-of-the-box type. I have never seriously considered buying an airplane but I think I would go for one which doesn't require much modification, even if it's not exactly the way I would like it.
 
wabower said:
Consider the source. How much of it are you hearing from guys who trade airplanes regularly? or ever? When D. K. Royal coached at Texas, he said "when your record is 9 and 1, nobody ever asks you who the 9 were." Buyers will always have their wish list, and be quick to point out what they want that your airplane doesn't have. Most airplanes have no chance of meeting all of their specs.

Here's the test. Go through all the listings you have been perusing and see how much money individual owners have spent to make their airplanes market-ready. They either sell them or they don't, but nobody spends any money on them. You buys them "as is-where is" or you's doesn't buys them.
Click to expand...

Understood.
 
SkyHog said:
Personally, panel means bupkis to me, and when I buy, money and plane specs (speed, payload, etc) will be the driver.

For a panel? Handheld GPS and a radio stack is all I need.
Click to expand...

Nick, I tend to agree with you. To me, a plane will still fly the same, regardless of how many electronic gadgets are installed in the panel.
 
nyoung said:
FWIW, the local avionics installation guru says he has been doing a lot of 430 installs just so that people can sell their planes.

A GNS430 is almost considered required equipment these days.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you expect an avionics installer to say that? :)
 
DutchessFlier said:
What sells an airplane is what sells anything. A buyer willing to pay what a seller is willing to accept. All the rest is subjective and open to hours of conjecture, debate and personal preferences.
Click to expand...

This is by far the most accurate statement that has been made so far. Just like all the idiots that HAD to have a NEW Camaro and paid $8-$10K over sticker just to get one, now you can buy them for under sticker.
Airplanes are no different!
 
Dean said:
This is by far the most accurate statement that has been made so far. Just like all the idiots that HAD to have a NEW Camaro and paid $8-$10K over sticker just to get one, now you can buy them for under sticker.
Airplanes are no different!
Click to expand...


What is interesting to me in this thread is very few statements about what sells, it's just people thinking / talking about how they buy. In reality it is two totally different things.

A discretionary purchase is made when the fear of loss exceeds the greed of gain.
 
Geico266 said:
What is interesting to me in this thread is very few statements about what sells, it's just people thinking / talking about how they buy. In reality it is two totally different things.

A discretionary purchase is made when the fear of loss exceeds the greed of gain.
Click to expand...

I don't know that I agree.

Buyers decide when to buy, and what makes them want to buy is the same thing that makes something sell.
 
Not so with airplanes. Some people care about cosmetics, others don't. If I spent 20k for paint and interior (that's worth an additional 10k on the sales price) but you would have rather had it looking ratty with a 430 and stec for the same cost and resale value increase, you're not a buyer for my plane. But somebody else might feel differently and buy it in a heartbeat. Different strokes.

PS: As you can see, I spent the money on the panel. Paint? I don't need no steenking paint!

(quote=SkyHog;524873]I don't know that I agree.

Buyers decide when to buy, and what makes them want to buy is the same thing that makes something sell.[/quote]
 
What sells airplanes?

Love at first sight, then compromise.

Sort of like relationships.
:P
 
Tom-D said:
When you are searching the market for the right aircraft the last thing you should look at is the price, because the cheap aircraft are the ones you can't afford.

As many know my F-24 is for sale, we had a buyer that offered the right price, and we accepted, the buyer and his wife and daughter flew up here at their expense, stayed two days in a motel, and inspected the aircraft from top to bottom, they loved it, wanted to buy it, BUT

When they sat in it, they were very squeezed, thus they could not use the aircraft as a family aircraft and did not buy.

Main lesson here, know which aircraft fits your mission, and balance that with the equipment list and cost.

Know what you need, know the proper selling price, and don't waste your, and your sellers time by being a tire kicker in the learning curve.
Click to expand...

Jeez, Tom, that's a bit harsh. It's not like the guy could go down to his local dealer and try one on for size.
 
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