What plane to look for?

bflynn

bflynn

Final Approach
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Brian Flynn
I've pretty much come to terms that I can't afford to own the 172sp that I'd really like to have...but what plane can I have? I don't begin to know the range of planes out there, so I'm asking for help just to identify what is possible.

Criteria in order that I'd like to see

engine less than 60% TBO
Price under 20k
at least two seats
useful load > 450 lbs after a reasonable fuel load
range 300 miles+
annual maintenance cost < 5k
speed 90 kts+

Use will be for fun, VFR flying on cross countries for up to 600 miles.
 
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Pacer or Tri Pacer for more than 2 seats and a C-150 or Tomahawk for 2 seat.
 
Well you pretty much narrowed it down to a few choices. You could either get a C-150 or possibly a PA-38 for that criteria. Some older designs and a few homebuilts that might meet your requirements as well but probably not worth looking at.
 
If you could bump up to about $25K you could pick up a nice Cherokee. It has four seats and more useful load.
 
Henning said:
Pacer or Tri Pacer for more than 2 seats and a C-150 or Tomahawk for 2 seat.
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From what I remember about the C150s I've flown, you won't have 450 lbs useful load left with full tanks.
 
bflynn said:
I've pretty much come to terms that I can't afford to own the 172sp that I'd really like to have...but what plane can I have? I don't begin to know the range of planes out there, so I'm asking for help just to identify what is possible.

Criteria in order that I'd like to see

engine less than 60% TBO
Price under 20k
at least two seats
useful load > 450 lbs after a reasonable fuel load
range 300 miles+
annual maintenance cost < 5k
speed 90 kts+

Use will be for fun, VFR flying on cross countries for up to 600 miles.
Click to expand...

I'd suggest finding a partner, and each kicking in $12,500 to buy a $25k C172 or PA28. Keep the $7,500 left from your $20k budget put away for unexpected repairs. Or check out clubs in your area.
 
BurtM said:
I'd suggest finding a partner, and each kicking in $12,500 to buy a $25k C172 or PA28. Keep the $7,500 left from your $20k budget put away for unexpected repairs. Or check out clubs in your area.
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I like the idea of flying double the airplane on a fixed budget. Sounds like a winner to me.
 
I'm a member of a club already, I just want to look at options for ownership. For example, I know an associate has a Taylorcraft that he tools around in. But I now nothing about the airplane.

So as you get down to two seater airplanes, is it just impossible to get one that can carry two people and fuel?

I'm looking at specs on the 150 - 1600 lbs gross less 1060 empty weight gives 540 lbs.

Using 5 gph (very conservative) means you need 20 gallons to go 3 hours and still have an hour reserve....that's about the 300 mile range. I suspect the real number is closer to 4 gph than 5, but let's be conservative.

So 20 gallons of fuel is 120 lbs, leaving 420 lbs of useful weight. Not great, but I think we could make that work.

So a C150 marginly qualifies.

But can I do better? I don't know, I really don' tknow what's out there.
 
bflynn said:
I'm a member of a club already, I just want to look at options for ownership. For example, I know an associate has a Taylorcraft that he tools around in. But I now nothing about the airplane.

So as you get down to two seater airplanes, is it just impossible to get one that can carry two people and fuel?

I'm looking at specs on the 150 - 1600 lbs gross less 1060 empty weight gives 540 lbs.

Using 5 gph (very conservative) means you need 20 gallons to go 3 hours and still have an hour reserve....that's about the 300 mile range. I suspect the real number is closer to 4 gph than 5, but let's be conservative.

So 20 gallons of fuel is 120 lbs, leaving 420 lbs of useful weight. Not great, but I think we could make that work.

So a C150 marginly qualifies.

But can I do better? I don't know, I really don' tknow what's out there.
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I like C150s - they're a good, honest flying aircraft.
But the cabin is pretty small, and climb performance at gross, especially in the summer is pretty marginal.
I would figure on 5 to 5.5 GPH, not 4, though.
You can look online at lots of specs, but I can't think of anything in your price range that's going to be much different from a 150.
 
You are grossly underestimating the fixed and intangible operating costs, fuel burn, payload capabilities and maintenance costs of ownership. However, to each his/her own, good luck, and I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for, However, YMMV.
 
That's a new one, I'm usually told that I'm overestimating operating costs. I plan on fuel costs at what I know, but also put in an engine set-aside and maintenance for each hour flown. Typically I say "engine cost / #hours until TBO" for set aside. just as a rule of thumb, I use "engine cost / TBO hours" to determine a maintenance cost. For example, if there's 1500 hours left on a 2000 hour engine and the engine costs 25,000, then I get:

25000 / 1500 = $16.67 per hour for engine set aside
plus
25000 / 2000 = $12.50 per hour for maintenance set aside.

So, every hour I fly, I'd have to put $28.67 into a maintenance account, in addition to paying for fuel. So at 5 gph x 5$/gallon, I'm looking at paying ~$25/hour for gas and paying myself almost $30 for future maintenance.

I use that rule of thumb because, being in a very active club, I've seen engines come and go - they do eventually run out and eventually you're going to need a very large chunk of money to pay for it.

Like I said, I really don't know smaller airplanes and what I can look up on the internet. The information I saw from an owner said 4.1 gph. If 5.5 is closer to reality, then I have to shorten the range if there's a passenger.
 
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Our C-150 has a useful load with full fuel of a fuzz over 386 pounds. It is a 1968 150H, one MX300 NAV/COM, transponder with mode C, King ADF, marker beacon, two place intercom (marginal IFR capability for actual, but okay if you wanted to pursue your rating and rent more capable for actual). My son lives 200 nm away. Flying there typically takes about 2.5 hours, and I arrive with an hour or a little more of fuel on board. Annual maintenance cost is well under $5,000. Flying it is fun, although if you and your passenger are on the heavier side, it is a little cramped. You have to like each other :).
 
Don't get me wrong, flying is awesome, and owning an aircraft, if you can afford it is even better, but just realize, and so you don't get caught short, your costs are going to be much greater than you anticipate, both in fixed and flexible expenses, depreciation, nav-comm/panel avionics equipment, maintenance, fuel, insurance, etc. You might want to have at least a 20% of the purchase price additional available cushion of funds as soon as you take ownership of the plane. You also did not say whether you have to finance the plane, or paying cash.

Oh, and there are "annuals" and there are "annuals", if you get my implications. Sure you can annual a plane for bare bones, but it's your butt in that PIC seat.
 
Yeah, I don't want to buy a bare bones plane. I want to buy an inexpensive plane. Yeah, I know, we all do. I'm fine with an airplane that has less capability, but I do need one that gets us off the ground, even on a 100 degree summer day.

I know I can get a $15,000 Warrior, but it needs to replace a wing.

Or I can get an older $25,000 172, but it needs a $25,000 engine within a year.

Yeah, it's sounding like it's a marginal thought at best, I probably should go back to saving pennies and look into the 30-35k range for a four seater.
 
I'd go for the 30-35k four seater.

25k is a wings of carolina engine - factory overhauled. The most expensive way to do it - though the best for our club because getting a new crate motor is the quickest way to get a plane back on line, we have a lot of members and a boat load of cash.

I'm betting a good field overhaul would take 2 months and cost less than half of that on a 160hp lycoming. Not 'zero time' but overhauled to factory service specs.

If you actually have the discipline to put away $25 / hour for maintenance on a fixed pitch, fixed gear plane like a warrior or 152/172 you are gonna do just fine. (assuming the airplane you buy is in good shape)
 
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bflynn said:
Or I can get an older $25,000 172, but it needs a $25,000 engine within a year.
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I bet in today's market you could get an mid-time O-320-powered 172 in overall good condition for $25k. Probably wouldn't have dream avionics, but it would be IFR-capable.

Still, you should have a pot of money left over to pay for stuff that can go bad.
 
I'll second Henning's Tripacer suggestion. Empty weight is usually between 1100-1200 pounds with a gross weight of 2000 pounds. 36 gallons of fuel at 9gph for the 160hp engine (less with the135 or 150 hp) Cruise speed about 100kts. Mine is a little faster than an older 172 and a little slower than the 180hp 172's. Payload is better. The plane is fun to fly. Mine has a service ceiling of 19,000 ft, although it probably takes the whole tank of fuel to get there! Tripacers will fly anywhere. The gear is pretty rugged and tolerates unimproved fields better than most any other tricycle gear. I've landed mine on gravel strips where the "gravel" was 2-6 inches in size, thick long grass strips, high altitude strips and although the shortest strip I've landed on was 1500ft my plane was flown out of a 1250 ft strip with 2 large people and a miss timed engine once. I've landed mine with a 60 degree 36mph crosswind and a down the runway 50mph wind. (Not alot of fun but the plane has to come down sometime and mine always seems to take care of me) Also the Shortwing Piper Club has a lot of good technical information on any of the Shortwings and can give you some good support. And if you go to flyins people like to ask you about your plane because it is different from the typical spam cans that fly in. And every pilot over 70 will tell how he learned to fly in one of those. And you get to park in the classic section at Oshkosh.

Some of the shortcomings are: It is a little awkward getting in the front seat. It is a Piper and the door is on the passenger side. But there is a back seat door. Also a lot of them have older avionics. Mine is set up pretty good but that is because I put the money into it. There are some IFR capable ones out there but most make better VFR machines.

Barb
 
Henning said:
... a C-150 or Tomahawk for 2 seat.
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Not many of those can legally carry full fuel (which at their speeds you'll need to go 300nm with decent fuel reserves) and 450 lb in the cabin -- just not enough horsepower. Overall, I agree with those who said you'll need either a partner or more cash to get what you want. $20k is just not enough capital for that.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Not many of those can legally carry full fuel (which at their speeds you'll need to go 300nm with decent fuel reserves) and 450 lb in the cabin -- just not enough horsepower. Overall, I agree with those who said you'll need either a partner or more cash to get what you want. $20k is just not enough capital for that.
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300 miles is around 120 lbs of fuel including reserves. If he can't take that well, he has the choice of doubling his budget or stopping sooner for fuel. Unless his route is over water or desolate terrain, stopping sooner will probably be easier to budget, but I don't disagree with getting a partner and more plane either.
 
bflynn said:
I've pretty much come to terms that I can't afford to own the 172sp that I'd really like to have...but what plane can I have? I don't begin to know the range of planes out there, so I'm asking for help just to identify what is possible.

Criteria in order that I'd like to see

engine less than 60% TBO
Price under 20k
at least two seats
useful load > 450 lbs after a reasonable fuel load
range 300 miles+
annual maintenance cost < 5k
speed 90 kts+

Use will be for fun, VFR flying on cross countries for up to 600 miles.
Click to expand...

No, you aren't even up to cub money
 
cub money?

nothing wrong with a musketeer. I don't like their backwards rubber doughnut gear but that's the only thing i've found not to like about em
 
Mike5250 said:
I was looking at c-150/2 options and came across the musketeer. I am still a year or two away from buying. Almost 1000 lb useful load and a fairly new engine. Anyone here have experience with them?

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...1964-BEECHCRAFT-A23-II-MUSKETEER/1171512.htm?
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If I was to buy a Beech I'd save a little more money and buy a Sport. It's newer, panel is a little more modern and I think it looks better. I rented a Sundowner for awhile. It flew like a truck! With the trailing link landing gear she can take some abuse and still look like a smooth landing.

I looked at the Sport seriously before I decided on an AA-5 Traveler. Can't beat the light control feel, good vis, good looks, solid airframe (state of the art at the time). Best of all, you can fly with the canopy partially open at slower speeds! IMO the AA-5s are the best deal in 4 places right now.
 
Mike5250 said:
I was looking at c-150/2 options and came across the musketeer. I am still a year or two away from buying. Almost 1000 lb useful load and a fairly new engine. Anyone here have experience with them?

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...1964-BEECHCRAFT-A23-II-MUSKETEER/1171512.htm?
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with a Musketeer. They'll teach a person speed control, because if you try to force one on, they'll porpoise and won't be as forgiving as a 172. The IO-346 in that particular example is kind of an oddball engine - not sure what kind of factory support still exists for that.

For that price I think a Sport or Sundowner would be available. And they have 2 cabin doors, which is not very common for low-wing basic singles.
 
A lot of good suggestions, but if 2 seats are enough, why not a Luscombe 8 or Cessna 120/140? Many good ones out there for $20K or less, cheap and easy to maintain despite the age of the fleets, not all ragwings, some with updated instruments, some with bigger engines, and in general these old 2-seaters will yield about 100 mph on 5 gph. The tailwheel factor is not a big deal; just something you learn about and deal with. Maintenance on tailwheels is much cheaper than on nose gear, too. :D
I'm not kidding about the prices, either... under $20K does not necessarily mean rampant corrosion, old fabric and run-out engines... some old Cessna and Luscombe 2-seaters are LSA-compliant, some aren't. Those that aren't are going cheap these days. $18K can get you a good one, $25K can get you a really fine one. A "show" quality LSA-compliant Silvaire will cost quite a bit more, but still a better deal than a Skycatcher, IMHO. :D

They are older types (OK, they're antiques), so obviously there are critical things to look for when shopping for one, but I have seen- and flown- some really sweet vintage 2-seaters that were very young for their age. The old Continentals are still pretty well supported, but putting an O-200 on a Silvaire or C-140 is commonly done, with excellent results.

Plenty of C-150s out there in that price range, but they are heavier, more expensive to maintain, use more fuel, and are more likely to be tired old flight-school veterans.
 
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