What plane should I buy?

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golfmogul

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golfmogul
I took my first ever flight in a light aircraft last week & was instantly hooked. I've been wanting to fly for my entire life & the timing is finally right. I bought an online ground course from KingSchools upon the recommendation of the flight instructor that took me on last week's demo flight, & have been learning the ground school stuff needed to pass the test. I like the instructor & plan to use him to train & move forward with getting the dozens of hours needed to eventually pass the flight test. I'd like to use him as my instructor. If I use him and the plane he teaches with, I'll learn on a PA28-181 (Piper Archer Cherokee II). It seemed fine, but a friend who has recently gone through all of this (and some things I've read online) suggest that if you plan to buy a plane anyway, the training is less expensive if you do it in your own plane, and then you're learning on the plane you own & will be using after getting your license so you'll be accustomed to flying it etc. Makes sense. If the above are true, I am interested in buying (ideally fractional ownership) something that can do the following (assuming it is within the realm of planes I could use to learn to fly & also would be a plane I can operate with my license once I get it).

I've been researching planes I could buy with the following in mind:

1. I live near Salt Lake City UT. Elevation a little over 4,000 feet msl.

2. I have kids who are with me about 30% of the time. When they're with me, we often take last min trips. Would be fun to take them on short trips with me in a plane once a month or so (to southern utah, to phoenix, to So. Cal, to Dallas ... we have family in each place) - and I'd like to fly myself to vegas occasionally. Would be nice to have a plane that can go direct from the south valley regional airport to each of these destinations without stopping in between for fuel but if Dallas (or Dallas and Phoenix) require a stop first in southern utah or somewhere in between, I can manage that.

3. My 2 kids that will be with me 30% of the time are 10 and 12 but very tall ... one is already 150lbs and growing fast, the other is about 110lbs and growing fast. My other son who will only occasionally fly with us (b/c he's living away at college) weighs 185 (same as me).

4. I want to be able to take 3 kids, myself, and some luggage (we usually each travel with 1 carry on and 1 backpack).

5. I haven't gotten to this part in my training, but from watching youtube videos I've learned that during the summer months when its hot, and at high altitude airports (south valley regional is 4604 msl, is that high in this context?), that it makes it harder to gain altitude in weaker (single engine) planes - right?

Like anyone, I'd prefer a low maintenance plane that is on the less expensive end of things to maintain/service, but that also has a modern/comfortable enough interior and exterior as to look nice and fly well. Ideally a glass cockpit with more modern avionics, but I'm open to analog if that's too expensive. Not sure yet of my budget, but my ideal situation would be to have a less than $2,500/mo payment and own at least 1/4 of a nice, newer plane that is decently fast, has great range for my routes I will be regularly flying, and can manage the load of 4 (essentially) adults w/some luggage & full fuel tank even during hot summer days taking off at 4,600 feet.

My research this far has taken me to the 6 seaters in general b/c so much that I read online suggests that 4 seaters aren't really built to handle 4 adults + luggage (dumb). So far, I am liking what I learn about the Archer Cherokee 6 seater, but I don't know enough about it to know if it fulfills the mission outline I've laid out above. If you have suggestions I'll really appreciate your input.

Thanks!
 
golfmogul said:
It seemed fine, but a friend who has recently gone through all of this (and some things I've read online) suggest that if you plan to buy a plane anyway, the training is less expensive if you do it in your own plane, and then you're learning on the plane you own & will be using after getting your license so you'll be accustomed to flying it etc. Makes sense.
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I disagree with this premise strongly. If I was getting my driver's license with a view to owning a Ferrari, it would not be great for my training foibles to be performed in the high-strung machinery, but rather, some beater Corolla. Some planes ("trainers") are made to take the abuse you're going to dish out, and some planes are made for going places.

So while the "what plane should I buy?" question is a fun one, and worth exploring, I wanted to suggest training in the Cherokee and making all of your expensive mistakes in it, as it is a fantastic trainer and has proven it can take the abuse. Better still, you won't be paying insurance and maintenance on the plane you're abusing, and if you get to hour 40 and decide you hate flying, you don't need to sell a plane you've just thrashed.

$0.02.
 
golfmogul said:
I took my first ever flight in a light aircraft last week & was instantly hooked. I've been wanting to fly for my entire life & the timing is finally right. I bought an online ground course from KingSchools upon the recommendation of the flight instructor that took me on last week's demo flight, & have been learning the ground school stuff needed to pass the test. I like the instructor & plan to use him to train & move forward with getting the dozens of hours needed to eventually pass the flight test. I'd like to use him as my instructor. If I use him and the plane he teaches with, I'll learn on a PA28-181 (Piper Archer Cherokee II). It seemed fine, but a friend who has recently gone through all of this (and some things I've read online) suggest that if you plan to buy a plane anyway, the training is less expensive if you do it in your own plane, and then you're learning on the plane you own & will be using after getting your license so you'll be accustomed to flying it etc. Makes sense. If the above are true, I am interested in buying (ideally fractional ownership) something that can do the following (assuming it is within the realm of planes I could use to learn to fly & also would be a plane I can operate with my license once I get it).

I've been researching planes I could buy with the following in mind:

1. I live near Salt Lake City UT. Elevation a little over 4,000 feet msl.

2. I have kids who are with me about 30% of the time. When they're with me, we often take last min trips. Would be fun to take them on short trips with me in a plane once a month or so (to southern utah, to phoenix, to So. Cal, to Dallas ... we have family in each place) - and I'd like to fly myself to vegas occasionally. Would be nice to have a plane that can go direct from the south valley regional airport to each of these destinations without stopping in between for fuel but if Dallas (or Dallas and Phoenix) require a stop first in southern utah or somewhere in between, I can manage that.

3. My 2 kids that will be with me 30% of the time are 10 and 12 but very tall ... one is already 150lbs and growing fast, the other is about 110lbs and growing fast. My other son who will only occasionally fly with us (b/c he's living away at college) weighs 185 (same as me).

4. I want to be able to take 3 kids, myself, and some luggage (we usually each travel with 1 carry on and 1 backpack).

5. I haven't gotten to this part in my training, but from watching youtube videos I've learned that during the summer months when its hot, and at high altitude airports (south valley regional is 4604 msl, is that high in this context?), that it makes it harder to gain altitude in weaker (single engine) planes - right?

Like anyone, I'd prefer a low maintenance plane that is on the less expensive end of things to maintain/service, but that also has a modern/comfortable enough interior and exterior as to look nice and fly well. Ideally a glass cockpit with more modern avionics, but I'm open to analog if that's too expensive. Not sure yet of my budget, but my ideal situation would be to have a less than $2,500/mo payment and own at least 1/4 of a nice, newer plane that is decently fast, has great range for my routes I will be regularly flying, and can manage the load of 4 (essentially) adults w/some luggage & full fuel tank even during hot summer days taking off at 4,600 feet.

My research this far has taken me to the 6 seaters in general b/c so much that I read online suggests that 4 seaters aren't really built to handle 4 adults + luggage (dumb). So far, I am liking what I learn about the Archer Cherokee 6 seater, but I don't know enough about it to know if it fulfills the mission outline I've laid out above. If you have suggestions I'll really appreciate your input.

Thanks!
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I wouldn't qualify SLC to southern California as a short trip - it's over 500 nautical miles. At some point in the near future, you'll need to carry yourself, three near-adult size children, four plus hours of fuel, and some luggage. Assuming you want to stay with a single engine, I'd look at six seat Cherokees, which are designated as PA-32, as opposed to the PA-28 which you are currently flying, and also the Cessna 206 and 210s. I don't think anything smaller would do the job.

You could probably do you post-solo training in a PA-32. I won't offer an opinion on the Cessnas, I have no experience with them, but someone will be along shortly who has some.

You're about to find that buying an airplane isn't as easy as buying a car, so be prepared to keep flying what you're renting for a while.
 
Welcome to PoA, golfmogul. I have to agree with @schmookeeg (Mike); do your training in the Archer and get a feel for things like payload and density altitude as you're training. I got my private certificate in a C172 at the Ogden airport while on active duty at Hill AFB in the early sixties, so I know you'll get experience in mountain flying, density altitude, and will be in a better position to understand what airplanes will best meet your mission requirements as you work toward getting your ticket. Mike's points about learning in someone else's airplane (abuse while learning, not having to worry about insurance, maintenance, hangar/tiedown charges, etc.) are all worth considering. Buying an airplane is a major expense for most folks, and you really don't want to do that before putting in some time training so you're sure it's a commitment you want to make.

Good luck with your training!

My $.02.
 
Stan Cooper said:
Welcome to PoA, golfmogul. I have to agree with @schmookeeg (Mike); do your training in the Archer and get a feel for things like payload and density altitude as you're training. I got my private certificate in a C172 at the Ogden airport while on active duty at Hill AFB in the early sixties, so I know you'll get experience in mountain flying, density altitude, and will be in a better position to understand what airplanes will best meet your mission requirements as you work toward getting your ticket. Mike's points about learning in someone else's airplane (abuse while learning, not having to worry about insurance, maintenance, hangar/tiedown charges, etc.) are all worth considering. Buying an airplane is a major expense for most folks, and you really don't want to do that before putting in some time training so you're sure it's a commitment you want to make.

Good luck with your training!

My $.02.
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That sounds like great advice and makes a lot of sense to me. Again, I’m at the very beginning of this exciting journey, but I think I will follow your suggestion for at least a few months. I plan to pretty much spend full-time hours until I get my private license, and then do the same until I get my instrument rating. Hopefully there are workarounds these days for those of us who are colorblind because I would hate To get deeper into this with my investment of time and money and then discovered that my color blindness will keep me from acquiring the licenses and ratings that will allow me to buy a plane and use it the way I plan to
 
The Cherokee 6 is a good plane but do you want to fly a big ass schoolbus around for your first plane? If I would have made that choice I would have got so bored with flying I would have quit by now.
A 182 will haul the load and be a better all around plane.
I came to the conclusion that 1 plane will not do it all. I have my beautiful but very boring IO-550 M35 Bonanza to go fast. The J-3 gets flown the most because it is cheap to fly and you don't need anywhere to go. The Cessna 175 is the best all around plane I have. The Skybolt is awesome and goes upside down and the Stearman is just cool. I am always changing airplanes so I don't loose interest. It is fun always flying different stuff.
So the point of my story isn't to go buy a bunch of planes. The point is you better decide if you want a fun airplane of fly around in a school bus?
most new pilots say they will travel far.... They buy fast airplanes and get a instrument rating..... Then they never fly because they have no place to go. Everyone told me get my instrument rating when I started. I said heck no! I bought a Decathlon and got my tailwheel signoff and aerobatic instruction. I'm still happy. 16 years later i still don't want my instrument rating, that is boring flying.
So think hard on what you really want to do.
 
pigpenracing said:
The Cherokee 6 is a good plane but do you want to fly a big ass schoolbus around for your first plane? If I would have made that choice I would have got so bored with flying I would have quit by now.
A 182 will haul the load and be a better all around plane.
I came to the conclusion that 1 plane will not do it all. I have my beautiful but very boring IO-550 M35 Bonanza to go fast. The J-3 gets flown the most because it is cheap to fly and you don't need anywhere to go. The Cessna 175 is the best all around plane I have. The Skybolt is awesome and goes upside down and the Stearman is just cool. I am always changing airplanes so I don't loose interest. It is fun always flying different stuff.
So the point of my story isn't to go buy a bunch of planes. The point is you better decide if you want a fun airplane of fly around in a school bus?
most new pilots say they will travel far.... They buy fast airplanes and get a instrument rating..... Then they never fly because they have no place to go. Everyone told me get my instrument rating when I started. I said heck no! I bought a Decathlon and got my tailwheel signoff and aerobatic instruction. I'm still happy. 16 years later i still don't want my instrument rating, that is boring flying.
So think hard on what you really want to do.
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I definitely would prefer to be a part of some subscription club where I could fly different planes for different missions. And a friend of mine who is a couple of years ahead of me in this process plans to learn some acrobatic flying, which is the most interesting to me when it comes to having fun in a plane, so I want to have that opportunity as well. I would rather pay a subscription fee and be able to rent or use different types of planes at different times depending on my mood or mission, but I don’t know if such clubs or subscription plans exist. I also don’t know what a pilot hast do to certify or pass some type of a FAA test on each plane he wants to fly?
 
I think the color blindness will exempt you from night flight...but I think you can take a test with an examiner at night (light gun signals) and possibly get the exemption removed...but more will chime in. Also, if you haven't done your medical yet others will post here in what to do regarding the color blindness. More importantly do you have any other medical issues, alchohol or drug issues, adhd, etc.
 
Often the FAA rules for flying different planes are rather simple.....vs the club/rental insurance requirements. I think you can technically learn in a archer and then just fly a 172 (not 100% sure)...but the insurance company won't have any of that!
 
As others have said, a trainer and long x country hauler aren't the same thing. Buy a 70's vintage c-172/PA28 140/160 to train through instrument (you will need that). Then sell that for a C-210/C-206/Cherokee 6. For 3 full sized people and bags even a C-182 is pushing it, so don't bother.

But don't out the cart before the horse. Focus on the training/trainer, and the revaluate once you have your private and instrument. You may find the last thing your kids want to do is fly with you for hours on end. Your passion may not be theirs. Then you can get that turbo Mooney just for yourself to blast around the west.
 
Sinistar said:
I think the color blindness will exempt you from night flight...but I think you can take a test with an examiner at night (light gun signals) and possibly get the exemption removed...but more will chime in. Also, if you haven't done your medical yet others will post here in what to do regarding the color blindness. More importantly do you have any other medical issues, alchohol or drug issues, adhd, etc.
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Yeah I’ve heard about the alternate test with light signals and hope I could pass that test. I also hope they will allow me to use the corrective glasses amazon has been selling for color blind ppl although I’ve never tried them but people say they work miracles. No other medical issues - thx
 
One of my best friends since high school just started taking lessons in a 172..
In the past he flew with me in my Pitts S-2C, Pitts model 12, 172, 175 and I took him up in my Bonanza.
He said he is buying a Bonanza!
I told him quit being ignorant! He don't want no boring Bonanza! He has a 182 and Debonair he can rent from his flying club.
He lives at Lakeway Texas 3R9 on Lake Travis.
I'm going to talk him into a Cub or Maule on floats :)
 
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I have two friends who bought planes to learn and fly in. One bought a C-170; he had flown paramotors and ultralights and stuff and had been around planes enough to know that's what he wanted. He flies so much that he probably had 400 hours before getting around to taking his checkride. The other bought a 182, I think he's close to his checkride if he hasn't finished already.
 
A few points:
1. I have to side with the "don't be in a hurry to buy your first plane" camp. Yes, it might save you some money to own your own trainer, or, you could have some major unforeseen issues (radio failure, bad cylinder, failed flap motor, etc.) that would instantly eat through any savings differential at the first annual inspection. And, as others mention, the plane you want for your planned missions is not the ideal trainer. You're based at a fairly busy airport, with many options for rental and training. Keep up the lessons with what's there, and sample some other aircraft along the way, you'll have a lot better idea of what you would want further down the experience trail.
2. Insurance for a 6 seat airplane for a student/solo or low-time private pilot will be very expensive.
3. Though a fine aircraft, unless you get into the turbocharged models, the Cherokee 6 is not the best performer for high density altitude operations.
4. Welcome to the flight community, enjoy your journey!
 
You are a great candidate for a Cherokee 235/Pathfinder/Dakota. Will handle nearly identically to the Archer, but with ridiculous useful load and probably the best high DA performance of any NA airplane.

A Cherokee 6 or Lance/Saratoga would do the trick, though you'd need some retract time to get reasonable insurance on the folding gear ones and they aren't cheap (then again, your budget is actually pretty good - airplane financing commonly runs 2-3 times the years of car financing).

An A36 Bonanza with a good UL would be fine, but they are big bucks, as are 210s.

A Debonair/33 Bonanza with an IO520 could get your ULs where you need. Especially if you have a tip tank weight increase.

An earlier Cirrus SR22 may be in your budget.

Don't bother with Mooney (that hurts to say). The ULs won't really for fit your needs.

A twin might be your ultimate goal. B55 Barons or even a 414 can be had for surprisingly inexpensive prices, but watch the operating costs.
 
N1120A said:
You are a great candidate for a Cherokee 235/Pathfinder/Dakota. Will handle nearly identically to the Archer, but with ridiculous useful load and probably the best high DA performance of any NA airplane.

A Cherokee 6 or Lance/Saratoga would do the trick, though you'd need some retract time to get reasonable insurance on the folding gear ones and they aren't cheap (then again, your budget is actually pretty good - airplane financing commonly runs 2-3 times the years of car financing).

An A36 Bonanza with a good UL would be fine, but they are big bucks, as are 210s.

A Debonair/33 Bonanza with an IO520 could get your ULs where you need. Especially if you have a tip tank weight increase.

An earlier Cirrus SR22 may be in your budget.

Don't bother with Mooney (that hurts to say). The ULs won't really for fit your needs.

A twin might be your ultimate goal. B55 Barons or even a 414 can be had for surprisingly inexpensive prices, but watch the operating costs.
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Thx for all the helpful feedback. I've googled and I'm struggling to find definitions for acronyms you used in your reply. UL? DA? NA? tip tank weight?
 
UL = useful load
DA = density altitude
NA - normally aspirated (not turbo charged, perhaps not fuel injected?)
 
golfmogul said:
Thx for all the helpful feedback. I've googled and I'm struggling to find definitions for acronyms you used in your reply. UL? DA? NA? tip tank weight?
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UL = Useful Load
NA = Naturally aspirated = not turbocharged
DA = Density altitude (very, very important where you are based)

Adding tip tanks to a BE36 or BE33 can increase the aircraft's useful load by a fair bit over the weight of the tanks. Something like add 200 pounds of UL in exchange for 40 pounds of tanks. That is your luggage right there.
 
Thanks a ton for your advice here guys - I'm def going to hold off a bit on a purchase. In Feb I'll go hard (nearly full time hours) on training in the Piper Archer Cherokee II that my flight instructor has. Then I'll sample out lots of planes & talk to lots of ppl to narrow things down in the summer. Seems like many are suggesting I'll need the power of either a turbo or twin engines to carry the load I'll often have (w/3 kids & luggage & me) here in the mountains of Utah & surrounding areas. I generally don't like the look of high wing planes (like most Cessna trainers I've seen).

Do any of you know of any clubs in Utah that I can join for a monthly subscription fee that would give me access to multiple planes I can use for different occasions/missions?

Also, does anyone here know what I'd need to do (if anything) to fly different planes (after I train and get my PPL on the Piper Archer Cherokee)? Thx again for the help - I'm googling & watching tons of youtube videos but still having trouble finding these answers.
 
N1120A said:
UL = Useful Load
NA = Naturally aspirated = not turbocharged
DA = Density altitude (very, very important where you are based)

Adding tip tanks to a BE36 or BE33 can increase the aircraft's useful load by a fair bit over the weight of the tanks. Something like add 200 pounds of UL in exchange for 40 pounds of tanks. That is your luggage right there.
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Thank you!
 
You do not need a twin or turbo, they would just help with your requirements. You do need something with a good power to weight ratio and high UL. Hence higher power 6 seaters or over powered 4 seaters. A Comanche 400 would get you where you need to be.
 
Jsalter said:
As others have said, a trainer and long x country hauler aren't the same thing. Buy a 70's vintage c-172/PA28 140/160 to train through instrument (you will need that). Then sell that for a C-210/C-206/Cherokee 6. For 3 full sized people and bags even a C-182 is pushing it, so don't bother.

But don't out the cart before the horse. Focus on the training/trainer, and the revaluate once you have your private and instrument. You may find the last thing your kids want to do is fly with you for hours on end. Your passion may not be theirs. Then you can get that turbo Mooney just for yourself to blast around the west.
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Eternal truths being imparted here. As a CFI, I get to fly in all sorts of planes from 152s up to the latest and greatest Cirruses, Saratogas, Mooneys...even the odd Bellanca here and there. I own a 172, and it's just fine for 80% of my flying. For the other 20%, I rent something a bit bigger/faster/higher UL.

You're at the start of a long journey. I like the analogy of not learning to drive in a Lambo (or a Lotus, my favorite). IF you get through the private (and IFR if you're planning on doing any sort of serious XC work), you will have enough time to explore alternatives if you're serious, but for now, the primary task at had is earning your primary certificate. There are 4 fundamentals, 10 or 12 flight maneuvers, plus cross-wind operations, high DA operations, XC planning, aeromedical issues, rules, regulations, privileges, restrictions, W&B, fuel burn, etc. to absorb and master. THAT is, IMHO and experience, what you should be concentrating on right now. There will always be planes for sale when you're ready.

Cherokees/Warriors/Archers/C172s aren't sexy. But you can get the basics down and have a lot of fun while doing it, or even figuring out if it's for you (medical issues notwithstanding...so get on getting your medical early in the process). My counsel: you're at the beginning of the journey. Learn the basics, keep an eye out as you get to the end of the primary for your first plane. Because it IS a big investment; who wants to drop 30-40K and then 6 months later find out that it's not for you? Now you've got an asset sitting on a ramp somewhere not being used that you have to try and unload, not to mention the maintenance, fuel, insurance, tie-down/hangar...

Make a training plan, stick with it, and (insurance notwithstanding...I don't know in this climate who would insure for less than the national debt a student in a high-perf retract with 6 seats...or a Malibu, or Beech Bonanza, or ??) focus on the initial task at hand that will give you the privileges to fly your own plane when you want where you want.

Just my $.02.
 
You may save on buying a simple training type airplane for your initial flight training but it is a gamble at best. You can easily outspend the entire cost of training on one unexpected engine issue.

I love some of the recommendation for a first plane as a student pilot. Insurance quote will be good for a laugh or maybe a cry ;)
 
golfmogul said:
5. I haven't gotten to this part in my training, but from watching youtube videos I've learned that during the summer months when its hot, and at high altitude airports (south valley regional is 4604 msl, is that high in this context?), that it makes it harder to gain altitude in weaker (single engine) planes - right?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's pretty high. On a summer day your density altitude can be as much as 10,000ft or more. That's at the airport elevation. This is the altitude that the airplane feels. The PA28-181, for example, has a service ceiling of about 14,000ft. As you can see, you do not have a lot of margin. And last couple thousand of those will be at a pretty anemic rate of climb. With those big rocks around SLC, you do need something with better ceiling and climb rates when you get ready to buy.
 
@golfmogul - here is an example of what we did and are pretty happy so far. None of it was rushed or emotional. Definitely TLDR for most :) And a few more terms to learn along the way.

My wife was already a pilot when I decided to start all of this. She had a older fabric plane - fun for her but not a family traveling plane. And we wanted to fly as a family if/when possible. So we knew it was time to get a bigger plane. Our goal was for me to also learn in this same new plane.

First was the high wing vs low wing decision. It narrowed down to high wing pretty quickly because we wanted both front doors, grass strip friendly and able to see down. Being able to get under a wing for shade is nice. We don't often fly in rain but twice have landed where it was raining and was nice to be able to get out and unload under the wing. The downsides to high wings are fueling up (ladder is needed), struts being in the way for pictures (except the Cardinal and most of the 201's), not the best view in the pattern especially on the base and final turns. Plus I think you need to get closer to the runway to get into ground effect...but I've never flown a low wing to compare.

Next decision was fixed gear or retractable gear (RG). Well this was easy for us. Even I knew that learning in a RG would be more risky and more insurance. Plus the RG on most Cessna's until you get into the Twins just seems kinda weak compared to the low wing Pipers, Mooney and Beech where the gear can fold up nicely into the wing. So this ruled out the Cardinals and the 210's with RG. So we are now down to the 172, 177, 182, 206 plus the tail wheel variants. We also decided against a tail wheel but to this day I wish I had learned in a tail wheel (for better rudder / crosswind skills).

Now Kari isn't a CFI but didn't need to be to teach me just one lesson before starting...actually before buying! Learn weight and balance (W&B) and useful load (UL). If you are really considering buying, especially right now I think learning W&B will give you a better understanding of what you are getting into.

Okay with our list of planes narrowed down I went online and found a older Cessna 172 Pilots Operating Handbook (POH). I jumped right to the W&B section. Made a spreadsheet and started plugging in weights for various scenarios such as just me, wife + me, all three of us, me + another big dude, etc. The 172 worked but in most cases didn't leave much margin. I don't think I could get two couples to work and have enough fuel for anything other than a close burger run. So we looked at the 172XP (has a 180hp motor). A bit better but it seemed the extra power was more about climbing or cruising and not really focused on better useful load. Plus most don't seem to have a constant speed prop (CSP - more on that in a bit).

Kari had flown about 20 different planes but never a Cardinal. So when we figured out that the 'B' model Cardinals had 180HP motors and a CSP....nice! You have to think hard to find another plane with such a spacious 4 person cabin and easy of entry with two big doors. No strut! Plus the CSP means variable pitch prop. This means it can be a good climb prop and also be a good cruise prop at any time since the prop pitch is governed (adjusting) vs fixed. The W&B was pretty good but still wasn't leaving the the bigger margin we wanted. Plus, if you are operating at higher altitudes (and thus higher DA's especially in the summer) it is recommended to plan for 90% of max take off weight (MTOW). After studying the Cardinal it seems like a high wing lovers ultimate couples travel plane. It can handle more but for two people of any size its awesome.

We didn't want (or need) to go any bigger than the 182. So I worked W&B from a old 182 POH. Huge tanks which can also be left partially filled to trade fuel for people/baggage/high DA. 230HP engine + CSP. It climbs great, I mean great!. Cruises at about 150mph but will cost you about 11gph when properly leaned. The 172 would be about 8gph and the Cardinal might be around 9-10gph. But you are hauling a lot of weight and going a lot faster than the 172 and similar speed as the Cardinal but with more load. The 182 (and many other planes) have a MOGAS (ethanol free unleaded car gas) supplemental type certificate (STC). We don't use it but can if we want. They made 20K+ of these planes so probably has the most add on's and options other than a 172 or a Archer. Don't underestimate these add-on's. Sometimes the people making add-on's only focus on approvals for the higher volumes planes. So something as simple as a modern visor all the way to a fancy auto-pilot (AP) may not be supported on less common planes. If it is not listed...if your plane's type and serial number range is not listed....it can not be used!

So the Cessna 182 is basically a somewhat boring yet tough, practical, easy to operate and maintain plane. We have hauled 4 adults several times before. I just start with 50gal instead of 78gal. I would say its a great 3 person plane for 500 miles or more. For 4 adults, you can still do that trip but the back seat (side to side) is pretty tight. However for a 4-seater the 182 probably has more rear seat leg room than almost any other plane. So we found a old 'P' model (the most produced). It had less than 2000hrs on it. There are still plenty out there like that. No fancy avionics, just the standard 6-pack. You will see a MP (manifold pressure) gauge that is not on the 172 or Archer and a cowl flaps lever. Otherwise very much like a 172 but wider and noticeably nose heavy.

I then did all my PPL training in it.

A fantastic old friend was a Thud pilot in Vietnam and afterwards ran jump zones and owned several 182's. So he was my other pilot mentor and taught me as much about the 182 as a person could. It was cool to be learning this from him while my CFI was teach me to fly.

Obviously my wife was able to answer questions along the way and moral support when things weren't easy (ie. landings). It was fun to watch her vet CFI's :)

The flight school was recommending this younger gal. So she used her to get insurance current in the plane first. When she came home that night she was like "Well I did all the flying. She was nice and didn't need to say much. But I don't think she knew all that much about the CSP or cowl flaps. She was just what I was at 24yrs old. She would be a good CFI...but she would not watch out for the plane like it was hers."

So I dug around and found a recently retired UPS pilot. She flew with him. It only took them about 30min. She could tell that he would be as concerned about the plane as the student. Turns out he had tons of 206 time. I would still give anything to have 1/50th of his night actual IMC time. And holy crap could he fly that 182. He showed me some stuff I am still not comfortable doing! I think he actually enjoyed it as a break from all the standard trainers. He would often give me grief if I scrubbed a tire on a crosswind landing, etc. "You own this plane Brad. Take care of it. You'll be buying tires and everything adds up". We parted ways later in my training way when I was near my checkride but needed to the move the plane, winter was coming, annual was due, etc. I took me just a handful of hours to wrap up with another great younger CFI who loves flying more than anything.

So you can do it in your plane. But I also had a small village to help out :)

If you want numbers (costs) it is a bit cheaper in your own plane. Had I trained the entire PPL with the second CFII (who was not at a big airport) the savings would have been more significant. But don't be mislead into thinking you'll cut $10K down to $5k. Think more like a 15% savings max after all is said and done because owning places lots of expenses back on you (annuals, oils changes, hangar cost, mx fund build up, etc)

If you like low wings and want to train in your own plane I would also recommend a Dakota/Pathfinder. Very similar to the 182. Might be a tidge faster. Same great climb/cruise/W&B. Similar fuel burn. When you finish your PPL you can fly your family in it. But you can also use it for instrument and some great cross countries. And it will hold its value nicely if you transition to a faster plane with more seats.

So am I not one to recommend strongly against buying a plane and learning in it. However that advice is solid. But I would not go this route alone. Find a mentor if you go this route. You need to be careful and take your time buying a plane. Then you want to find a CFI that will teach and also respect your plane since its not some beater rental to you! If you can't find these people or don't have the time then I would suggest the rental route and get the flying time so you can make decisions based on your own observations.
 
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swingwing said:
I love some of the recommendation for a first plane as a student pilot. Insurance quote will be good for a laugh or maybe a cry ;)
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My mine was a very hesitant laugh...did not go up on cent! I thought it was so weird soloing in a HP plane and our insurance didn't go up at all. But there was a higher time pilot on the policy so not as common of a scenario.
 
Brand new Mooney acclaim ultra is what you should buy. It will be 2500/month if you have 500,000 down +-
 
N1120A said:
You are a great candidate for a Cherokee 235/Pathfinder/Dakota.
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I disagree that a Cherokee 235 is a good fit. Piper extended the length of the PA-28 planes and the addition was all (or almost all) in the rear seat legroom. Short body planes are designated PA-28-180 or -235. Long bodies are PA-28 181 (the Archer), and PA-28-236. I have forgotten the model name for the -236, sorry.

due to your son’s sizes (and they will grow), I think buying a short body PA-28 would be a mistake. -Skip
 
golfmogul said:
Also, does anyone here know what I'd need to do (if anything) to fly different planes (after I train and get my PPL on the Piper Archer Cherokee)? Thx again for the help - I'm googling & watching tons of youtube videos but still having trouble finding these answers.
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Legally, nothing, though you may need a complex or high performance endorsement if the aircraft fits either of those categories. Practically, you'll need some transition training with a CFI in order to get insurance, and any FBO will require a checkout to rent their aircraft.
 
Sinistar said:
@golfmogul - here is an example of what we did and are pretty happy so far. None of it was rushed or emotional. Definitely TLDR for most :) And a few more terms to learn along the way.

My wife was already a pilot when I decided to start all of this. She had a older fabric plane - fun for her but not a family traveling plane. And we wanted to fly as a family if/when possible. So we knew it was time to get a bigger plane. Our goal was for me to also learn in this same new plane.

First was the high wing vs low wing decision. It narrowed down to high wing pretty quickly because we wanted both front doors, grass strip friendly and able to see down. Being able to get under a wing for shade is nice. We don't often fly in rain but twice have landed where it was raining and was nice to be able to get out and unload under the wing. The downsides to high wings are fueling up (ladder is needed), struts being in the way for pictures (except the Cardinal and most of the 201's), not the best view in the pattern especially on the base and final turns. Plus I think you need to get closer to the runway to get into ground effect...but I've never flown a low wing to compare.

Next decision was fixed gear or retractable gear (RG). Well this was easy for us. Even I knew that learning in a RG would be more risky and more insurance. Plus the RG on most Cessna's until you get into the Twins just seems kinda weak compared to the low wing Pipers, Mooney and Beech where the gear can fold up nicely into the wing. So this ruled out the Cardinals and the 210's with RG. So we are now down to the 172, 177, 182, 206 plus the tail wheel variants. We also decided against a tail wheel but to this day I wish I had learned in a tail wheel (for better rudder / crosswind skills).

Now Kari isn't a CFI but didn't need to be to teach me just one lesson before starting...actually before buying! Learn weight and balance (W&B) and useful load (UL). If you are really considering buying, especially right now I think learning W&B will give you a better understanding of what you are getting into.

Okay with our list of planes narrowed down I went online and found a older Cessna 172 Pilots Operating Handbook (POH). I jumped right to the W&B section. Made a spreadsheet and started plugging in weights for various scenarios such as just me, wife + me, all three of us, me + another big dude, etc. The 172 worked but in most cases didn't leave much margin. I don't think I could get two couples to work and have enough fuel for anything other than a close burger run. So we looked at the 172XP (has a 180hp motor). A bit better but it seemed the extra power was more about climbing or cruising and not really focused on better useful load. Plus most don't seem to have a constant speed prop (CSP - more on that in a bit).

Kari had flown about 20 different planes but never a Cardinal. So when we figured out that the 'B' model Cardinals had 180HP motors and a CSP....nice! You have to think hard to find another plane with such a spacious 4 person cabin and easy of entry with two big doors. No strut! Plus the CSP means variable pitch prop. This means it can be a good climb prop and also be a good cruise prop at any time since the prop pitch is governed (adjusting) vs fixed. The W&B was pretty good but still wasn't leaving the the bigger margin we wanted. Plus, if you are operating at higher altitudes (and thus higher DA's especially in the summer) it is recommended to plan for 90% of max take off weight (MTOW). After studying the Cardinal it seems like a high wing lovers ultimate couples travel plane. It can handle more but for two people of any size its awesome.

We didn't want (or need) to go any bigger than the 182. So I worked W&B from a old 182 POH. Huge tanks which can also be left partially filled to trade fuel for people/baggage/high DA. 230HP engine + CSP. It climbs great, I mean great!. Cruises at about 150mph but will cost you about 11gph when properly leaned. The 172 would be about 8gph and the Cardinal might be around 9-10gph. But you are hauling a lot of weight and going a lot faster than the 172 and similar speed as the Cardinal but with more load. The 182 (and many other planes) have a MOGAS (ethanol free unleaded car gas) supplemental type certificate (STC). We don't use it but can if we want. They made 20K+ of these planes so probably has the most add on's and options other than a 172 or a Archer. Don't underestimate these add-on's. Sometimes the people making add-on's only focus on approvals for the higher volumes planes. So something as simple as a modern visor all the way to a fancy auto-pilot (AP) may not be supported on less common planes. If it is not listed...if your plane's type and serial number range is not listed....it can not be used!

So the Cessna 182 is basically a somewhat boring yet tough, practical, easy to operate and maintain plane. We have hauled 4 adults several times before. I just start with 50gal instead of 78gal. I would say its a great 3 person plane for 500 miles or more. For 4 adults, you can still do that trip but the back seat (side to side) is pretty tight. However for a 4-seater the 182 probably has more rear seat leg room than almost any other plane. So we found a old 'P' model (the most produced). It had less than 2000hrs on it. There are still plenty out there like that. No fancy avionics, just the standard 6-pack. You will see a MP (manifold pressure) gauge that is not on the 172 or Archer and a cowl flaps lever. Otherwise very much like a 172 but wider and noticeably nose heavy.

I then did all my PPL training in it.

A fantastic old friend was a Thud pilot in Vietnam and afterwards ran jump zones and owned several 182's. So he was my other pilot mentor and taught me as much about the 182 as a person could. It was cool to be learning this from him while my CFI was teach me to fly.

Obviously my wife was able to answer questions along the way and moral support when things weren't easy (ie. landings). It was fun to watch her vet CFI's :)

The flight school was recommending this younger gal. So she used her to get insurance current in the plane first. When she came home that night she was like "Well I did all the flying. She was nice and didn't need to say much. But I don't think she knew all that much about the CSP or cowl flaps. She was just what I was at 24yrs old. She would be a good CFI...but she would not watch out for the plane like it was hers."

So I dug around and found a recently retired UPS pilot. She flew with him. It only took them about 30min. She could tell that he would be as concerned about the plane as the student. Turns out he had tons of 206 time. I would still give anything to have 1/50th of his night actual IMC time. And holy crap could he fly that 182. He showed me some stuff I am still not comfortable doing! I think he actually enjoyed it as a break from all the standard trainers. He would often give me grief if I scrubbed a tire on a crosswind landing, etc. "You own this plane Brad. Take care of it. You'll be buying tires and everything adds up". We parted ways later in my training way when I was near my checkride but needed to the move the plane, winter was coming, annual was due, etc. I took me just a handful of hours to wrap up with another great younger CFI who loves flying more than anything.

So you can do it in your plane. But I also had a small village to help out :)

If you want numbers (costs) it is a bit cheaper in your own plane. Had I trained the entire PPL with the second CFII (who was not at a big airport) the savings would have been more significant. But don't be mislead into thinking you'll cut $10K down to $5k. Think more like a 15% savings max after all is said and done because owning places lots of expenses back on you (annuals, oils changes, hangar cost, mx fund build up, etc)

If you like low wings and want to train in your own plane I would also recommend a Dakota/Pathfinder. Very similar to the 182. Might be a tidge faster. Same great climb/cruise/W&B. Similar fuel burn. When you finish your PPL you can fly your family in it. But you can also use it for instrument and some great cross countries. And it will hold its value nicely if you transition to a faster plane with more seats.

So am I not one to recommend strongly against buying a plane and learning in it. However that advice is solid. But I would not go this route alone. Find a mentor if you go this route. You need to be careful and take your time buying a plane. Then you want to find a CFI that will teach and also respect your plane since its not some beater rental to you! If you can't find these people or don't have the time then I would suggest the rental route and get the flying time so you can make decisions based on your own observations.
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Thanks a ton for taking the time to pass on your experience and learnings.
 
+1 On the Cherokee 235/Dakota. It was my second plane after the Mooney and before the Navajo. I operated out of a 3500ft elevation airport in northern NM. It will definitely carry 4 full size adults plus luggage and enough fuel to go over 700nm with reserves. If memory serves me well, I planned at 147 kn TAS with a burn of 12gph. They sell for less than a Cessna 182 and have a more reliable engine. Very reliable with fixed gear and constant speed prop.
 
Oops, since it’s been over 35 yrs I decided to check my logbooks. The cruise was 135Kt TAS and burn was13.5 gph.
 
Skip Miller said:
I disagree that a Cherokee 235 is a good fit. Piper extended the length of the PA-28 planes and the addition was all (or almost all) in the rear seat legroom. Short body planes are designated PA-28-180 or -235. Long bodies are PA-28 181 (the Archer), and PA-28-236. I have forgotten the model name for the -236, sorry.

due to your son’s sizes (and they will grow), I think buying a short body PA-28 would be a mistake. -Skip
Click to expand...

Doesn't the Cherokee 235 have the longer body, just with the Hershey Bar - similar to the Arrow II?

Anyway, the 236 is the Dakota and excellent for the mission.
 
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Skip Miller said:
I disagree that a Cherokee 235 is a good fit. Piper extended the length of the PA-28 planes and the addition was all (or almost all) in the rear seat legroom. Short body planes are designated PA-28-180 or -235. Long bodies are PA-28 181 (the Archer), and PA-28-236. I have forgotten the model name for the -236, sorry.
Click to expand...

There are a couple of exceptions to this. The "181"/"180" difference is the tapered wing vs Hershey Bar. The 180 got stretched in the 1973 Challenger/Archer 1. I can't speak to the 6 cylinder versions. The stretch is absolutely worth it, just do a bit of research on the specific models.

I bought a Challenger ('73 180) right after I soloed in a 172. It added about 10 hours to getting my PP, but when I got done I had my own plane that I was very comfortable flying. I just got my IFR in the same plane and for my needs, it's a nice plane. The insurance wasn't bad, ~$1,200 as a student pilot with a high hull value.

OP - just be sure that flying is really your thing before sinking $$$$ into a plane. Also, you will have some landings early on that you really want to make in a rental vs your own plane :). Also, you mentioned a lot of acronyms; here's one to add to your list - AMU.. An AMU is an Aviation Monetary Unit. 1 AMU = $1,000. It makes it slightly less painful when you are talking about maintenance and upgrades. "My new autopilot was 15 AMU's installed".
 
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