What plane fits?

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Icarus

Filing Flight Plan
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Feb 19, 2014
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Texas
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Icarus
Hello everyone to introduce myself I am a soonish to be private pilot and I really like to get a head start on the problems I will face later down the road. I don't have a lot of money to my name, working at a local gas station and grabbing plenty of overtime to afford school without assistance, but I have a very definite direction and am willing to do what it takes to get there.

My intention is this. To first obtain my Private License and then continue to IFR and from there grab my Commercial and CFI essentially simultaneously. I know it's a long long road ahead and so I figured I would try and equip myself with tools I can utilize for the whole ride.

So my question is. I need an affordable single engine piston complex aircraft with RG. I also intend on making frequent trips to and from Denver ideally with the ability to bring my family or one or two friends so I would like but do not absolutely need a 4 placer. I have also struck somewhat of a deal locally that will set me up with drastically decreased hangar prices and discounts on several other essentials (e.g. Oil) the stipulation of that being that the plane can not be a turbo and has to be something acceptable to train students in. Can you help me?

-Icarus
 
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Welcome to POA.

Please learn how to use the search button. ;)


:rofl:


Other than that.... WELCOME!
 
Welcome to PoA...

Where in Texas are you? If on the north side of DFW I might have a possible answer for ya.
 
Thank you kindly and my apologies Geico266!


I'll be flying out of KAMA Amarillo. So the FAR north side I suppose.
 
I appreciate the input EdFred but if I could be so needy as to ask you to elaborate? :confused::confused:


I have attained a basic understanding of some aircraft through careful study but I would really like some personal experience and or personal opinion from real life pilots rather than line after line of just stats.
 
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Icarus said:
Thank you kindly and my apologies Geico266!


I'll be flying out of KAMA Amarillo. So the FAR north side I suppose.
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You don't need to apologize to Geico. Ask whatever questions you want. Your question and situation might not be exactly like others have asked.

Just a quick question? Why does it have to be RG?
 
Maybe rent a Warrior for your Private or atleast while you find the right plane to purchase...

For IFR & Commercial/CFI training? Piper Arrow.
 
flyingmoose: If I am not mistaken in order to attain your commercial license you need to fly in a complex aircraft with RG? Aside from that the deal I have potentially lined up requires (or possibly just highly prefers) and RG aircraft.

MSPAviator: The school I'm going through only has a couple 172's at the moment. I don't mind learning in a 172 and then relearning the plane for my commercial. Besides with the number of 172's around I can see myself easily ending up flying them more in the future.


I have looked quite a bit into the Arrow and the only fall backs I have found is the cramped cabin and possible lack of power. Once again I am only operating on limited knowledge. Thus why I am here.
 
weirdjim:
Icarus said:
If I am not mistaken in order to attain your commercial license you need to fly in a complex aircraft with RG? Aside from that the deal I have potentially lined up requires (or possibly just highly prefers) and RG aircraft.
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If I am simply ignorant of some detail please forgive me.
 
Icarus said:
I appreciate the input EdFred but if I could be so needy as to ask you to elaborate? :confused::confused:


I have attained a basic understanding of some aircraft through careful study but I would really like some personal experience and or personal opinion from real life pilots rather than line after line of just stats.
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Mine is for sale.

http://webpages.charter.net/edfred/comanche/


What are the questions you have?
 
Icarus said:
MSPAviator: The school I'm going through only has a couple 172's at the moment. I don't mind learning in a 172 and then relearning the plane for my commercial. Besides with the number of 172's around I can see myself easily ending up flying them more in the future.


I have looked quite a bit into the Arrow and the only fall backs I have found is the cramped cabin and possible lack of power. Once again I am only operating on limited knowledge. Thus why I am here.
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You can do your Private + IR in the 172, then do the Arrow for your commercial. Jumping between the 172 and an Arrow should not be a big deal once you have some experience under your belt. The Arrow is THE commercial trainer and you can find a lot of them for sale.

If you did your Private in a Warrior then the Arrow basically flies and functions the same except for the gear knob and the prop lever.

The Arrow is no more underpowered than any other 4 cylinder naturally aspirated airplane in its horsepower class.

Personally, I prefer Mooneys but I'm not sure those would make a good Private trainer.
 
EdFred: That's a pretty bird. I very well may have more questions for you in the near future. For now...

1. Have you flown it with enough frequency to keep the engine clean?

2. Are there any known parts that will be in soon need of repair?

3. Is there any damage history? Also Airworthiness Directives?

I'll also take down your number so that my CFI can help me ask you whatever questions are more pertinent than what has come to mind currently.


MSPAviator: I will have to look more seriously into the Arrow for sure. How do you think the Arrow would hold up on a Xcountry flight to Denver? Namely dealing with mountainous terrain and the endurance to get there. it's 301nm from my base to Centennial. In your opinion what should I look for in said Arrow if I were to get one?
 
Icarus said:
MSPAviator: I will have to look more seriously into the Arrow for sure. How do you think the Arrow would hold up on a Xcountry flight to Denver? Namely dealing with mountainous terrain and the endurance to get there. it's 301nm from my base to Centennial. In your opinion what should I look for in said Arrow if I were to get one?
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You should look up the Colorado Pilot's Association and take one of their mountain flying classes.

Basically you want to fly your plane a few hundred pounds under gross and never fly IFR in the mountains. Look up the Colorado Pilot's Association and take their actual class though...

Just going to the front range though shouldn't be a big deal. 301nm is a journey that a Piper Arrow can easily do on a tank of fuel.

To break down that 301nm journey on a no-wind day...

Piper Arrow fuel capacity = 50 gallons (48 usable).

Nominal block speed 125 knots.

Block fuel consumption: 11-12gph

301 / 125 = 2.4 hours

2.4 * 12 gallons = 24 gallons. Plus an hour of reserve = 36 gallons required for the trip.

In reality you should be able to lean the plane back to about 10gph in cruise and hopefully you have a well rigged Arrow in good condition that can do more like 135kt+.

To compare, a Mooney M20J has the same engine and propeller as the Arrow, burns the same amount of gas, and will cruise at 155+ knots. Mooneys are just better airplanes. :)
 
Icarus said:
EdFred: That's a pretty bird. I very well may have more questions for you in the near future. For now...

1. Have you flown it with enough frequency to keep the engine clean?

2. Are there any known parts that will be in soon need of repair?

3. Is there any damage history? Also Airworthiness Directives?

I'll also take down your number so that my CFI can help me ask you whatever questions are more pertinent than what has come to mind currently.


MSPAviator: I will have to look more seriously into the Arrow for sure. How do you think the Arrow would hold up on a Xcountry flight to Denver? Namely dealing with mountainous terrain and the endurance to get there. it's 301nm from my base to Centennial. In your opinion what should I look for in said Arrow if I were to get one?
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Did an inspection of the engine last year when I replaced cylinders. Engine has no corrosion or pitting. Cylinders have somewhere between 20 and 50 hours on them.

Other than the stabilator horn which I will be replacing at annual this year, no.

Gear up on grass 3+ owners and 10+ years ago. The only major AD due in the next 500 hours is the stabilator which I will be doing in a manner so the AD will be eliminated. All others are 15 minute inspections, save the bungees which cost about $100 every 3rd year.
 
EdFred said:
If you're a fish that ends up on pizza, sure. ;)

But compared to the Arrow, yes.
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Airplanes are all about design compromises. Mooney's are as fast and efficient as they are because they combine low drag wings with a smaller frontal area. Basically that means you sit with your ass flat on the floor like in a Porsche 911 instead of more upright like a bench seat in a pickup truck/Cessna 172.

I'm 6'1 and I've flown many different types of PA-28's and flown PA-32s, I feel like the limitation of comfort in Pipers is due to lack of leg/knee room. I feel much more comfortable sitting in a Mooney.

I shake my head looking at Piper wings with all those lines of rivets sticking out of the skin. :no:
 
I have a IFR, 68 Arrow 180R with Speed mods and new scimitar prop that cruises 135-140Knots at 9.5 Gallons and hour...lifts 1000 pounds and with the KLN-94 and additional non certified Garmin you cannot get lost. Paid 35K with new top end an mid time engine...parts are available and everyone seems to be able to work on it
 
MSPAviator said:
Airplanes are all about design compromises. Mooney's are as fast and efficient as they are because they combine low drag wings with a smaller frontal area. Basically that means you sit with your ass flat on the floor like in a Porsche 911 instead of more upright like a bench seat in a pickup truck/Cessna 172.

I'm 6'1 and I've flown many different types of PA-28's and flown PA-32s, I feel like the limitation of comfort in Pipers is due to lack of leg/knee room. I feel much more comfortable sitting in a Mooney.

I shake my head looking at Piper wings with all those lines of rivets sticking out of the skin. :no:
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Odd, at 6'3" with a 36" inseam I can actually put the seat back too far in my Comanche, and never feel a lack of leg room. And the 201s I've flown in I had to cant my head to the side to keep from banging it on the window/headliner.
 
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Icarus said:
weirdjim:


If I am simply ignorant of some detail please forgive me.
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You can do 99% of your work in a plain old reliable straight-legged 172 and then take a few hours in a complex RG for the checkride. As I recall, you can DO all the commercial maneuvers and xc in the straight leg and only the complex and retract maneuvers in the RG.

You can rent out your 172 (it appears that you are contemplating a leaseback) a hell of a lot easier than a pricey and expensive to maintain RG.

Jim
 
Icarus said:
I appreciate the input EdFred but if I could be so needy as to ask you to elaborate? :confused::confused:
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He's trying to sell his Comanche.

First question is how much money you have for purchase, and the second is how much annual fixed and hourly operating cost can you afford?
 
Alright so now I'm conflicted between the commanche and the Arrow. For those of you with hands on experience which of the two do you prefer and why?

Also the Mooney would be nice but I have also heard it's a bad trainer so I'm willing to cross it off the list.

That's a fair point Jim but it would void the deal I have that would cover upkeep costs and hangar expenses.
 
An M-20C Mooney will fit your requirements at a minimal budget. Look for one with a modern upgraded panel. You can also form a club around it or sell shares to defray some of your fixed costs. If you are savvy, you can operate for $50 an hr dry with a cheap hangar, cheap oil, and cheap maintenance, potentially less. It's an efficient and rugged plane with the cheapes to maintain gear. Just get a good one. Don't chase for the bottom dollar, it will cost you in the long run. Buy the best airframe you can find, find several, and go for the most updated panel possible as second criteria. It's got a good engine and your best value will be one with 1000-1300 hrs, preference given to the ones that have 100+ hrs a year regularly flow. Those are your search criteria and rankings. Now you need to sort though them and find the ones that are under your maximum budget.

You want to befriend an A&P IA that will supervise you doing your own work, this may also lead to a better job working for them if you're mechanically inclined, as well as your own A&P rating and the future earning potential and job options (many Bush Pilot and Utility or Ag Pilot opportunities give preference to pilots who hold an A&P) that brings to your future should you decide to pursue an aviation career.

When you're serious about buying, give me a shout, we'll get you lined out.
 
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Icarus said:
Alright so now I'm conflicted between the commanche and the Arrow. For those of you with hands on experience which of the two do you prefer and why?

Also the Mooney would be nice but I have also heard it's a bad trainer so I'm willing to cross it off the list.

That's a fair point Jim but it would void the deal I have that would cover upkeep costs and hangar expenses.
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Comanche is slightly bigger, faster, roomier, more payload, more range.
I get about 155kts in my Comanche on 12-13gph.

The Arrow is newer and burns less fuel.
You get about 135kts on 9-10gph.

I can't speak for expenses on the Arrow, but my Comanche has not been the nightmare people who don't own them claim them to be. I will be doing my 5th annual next month on it and I've been under $2000 for all non-elective maintenance and inspections per year.
 
EdFred said:
Comanche is slightly bigger, faster, roomier, more payload, more range.
I get about 155kts in my Comanche on 12-13gph.

The Arrow is newer and burns less fuel.
You get about 135kts on 9-10gph.

I can't speak for expenses on the Arrow, but my Comanche has not been the nightmare people who don't own them claim them to be. I will be doing my 5th annual next month on it and I've been under $2000 for all non-elective maintenance and inspections per year.
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Yeah, another choice, but with a higher hourly cost of operations. Mooney does 147kts on 7.2. I think Arrows are still selling at a slight premium in purchase cost.
 
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I had an arrow as I worked on the ratings. I did fly a 172 rg ,but there aren' many for sale a reasonable price. Loved my arrow. Moved into a twin after the arrow. All around you can't beat an arrow.
 
My arrow II fits us very well. It's a post-72 model so it has the stretch fuselage. Mine has a couple of speed mods (flap gap seals, gear lobes, K2U wintips, wing root fairings) and I usually do 135KTAS on 9GPH. Best economy I've got has been 126KTAS on 7GPH, 131KTAS on 8 GPH at 11-12'K.

I fit my family of three just fine, and load up the baggage area up to the gills. We don't run out of space. I'm 5'9 170#, so I'm an FAA adult. I can't speak for bigger/taller people.

The airframe is dirt simple (PA-28 after all). Gear is also simple in design, gravity fails to down and locked, no uplocks or inner doors to deal with.

Sure, the Mooney 20C/E/F/J is slicker, but I hated the seating and the backseat is a joke compared to my Arrow, which is why it was a non-starter for my family. I'd say a Comanche is an even better option, but I could find a more modern T-arrangement for a cheaper total cost in the Arrow than the Comanche. Since I wanted a ready to go instrument platform in order to go-places, the Arrows were generally more available in the market.

Comanche or Bonanza would be my nice to have, but for what I got my arrow II for, it's the perfect compromise, it fits us like a glove (129-500NM flatland non-stop mission profile).
 
Warlock: Is that an exceptional find or would it be reasonable for me to find a similar arrow for a similar reasonable price?

MSPAviator/ Henning: Ok since you two appear to be leaning towards the Mooney I have a specific question or two. I have heard/ read in some places that the Mooney makes for a poor trainer, why is that? I have somewhat deduced that it may be to the engine wearing and tearing but is that not the case with any airplane? Why would the Mooney be a poor plane to lease to a flight school for example? Also how expensive/ plentiful are parts and maintenance?


Ron Levy: My apologies about the delay. I am certainly not a rich guy. I work at a local gas station but fortunately overtime is abundant and I am currently financially sound enough to deal with school bills and hold onto a little extra cash. I fully intend on leasing the plane out to hopefully fully cover the routine expenses and possibly put a small amount of money into a mechanic fund. So the bare minimum cost for the maximum capability. After all isn't that what we all shoot for?

EdFred: You are obviously rooting for the Comanche. (Possible bias:rofl:) I have looked into the Comanche enough to know that it's a good solid plane with consistent performance. What I'm not sure about is similar to the Mooney. I haven't been able to find much at all about it being utilized as a trainer outside of a private owner having and instructor come to them and them alone fly. How do you think it would hold up? It's apparently larger than the Mooney or Arrow which is a definite plus due to the fact I'll be taking friends/family on trips quite frequently if I get my way. I also really like your plane from the look of it so when I get more serious about buying (and provided you haven't sold it yet) Could I come down and we take it up some time?

hindsight2020: If you don't mind me asking what exactly makes the back seat of the Mooney a joke? Is it too small oddly shaped? Overall cramped? Why do you view the back of the Arrow to be superior?

Also you say you load the Arrow up with baggage as well. How does the aircraft preform loaded up like that? Is there any visible decrease in performance?



I really do appreciate all of your help. I'm just the new guy trying to make the best possible purchase so I can avoid wanting to sell my plane within two years to move up. I'd quite like to fly the wings off of any plane I purchase because well they aren't cheap so if I can try to get it right the first time then that will be golden.
 
Mooney fits. Dependent on the instructor, not the mooney. Not hard to fly, goes fast. High time mooney instructor......piece of cake. In fact , high time instructors, good ones , make everything easier. Also.... Buy a nice one. Buy an old one in not as good shape, you'll never catch up with the repairs. Don't be too worried about having family, friends along until you get really proficient. Usually about 5-600 hours. The ppl is just the beginning. Back seat of mooney is small , ok for kids only, or one adult sitting sideways. Think porsche.
 
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Icarus said:
EdFred: You are obviously rooting for the Comanche. (Possible bias:rofl:) I have looked into the Comanche enough to know that it's a good solid plane with consistent performance. What I'm not sure about is similar to the Mooney. I haven't been able to find much at all about it being utilized as a trainer outside of a private owner having and instructor come to them and them alone fly. How do you think it would hold up? It's apparently larger than the Mooney or Arrow which is a definite plus due to the fact I'll be taking friends/family on trips quite frequently if I get my way. I also really like your plane from the look of it so when I get more serious about buying (and provided you haven't sold it yet) Could I come down and we take it up some time?
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It honestly wouldn't make a good flight line trainer for multiple private students, and I wouldn't want a bunch of new pilots training in one I owned. But there's no reason it couldn't be used for Commercial and CFI training or rented by more experienced private pilots. If a Comanche was to be be put on a flight line it would allow people to get their complex endorsements - and something the Mooney and Arrow (unless it was a turbo) wouldn't - a high performance endorsement.

As far as buying and learning in one, you might have a couple extra hours needed to solo because of the retractable gear and constant speed prop, but it's not that big of an issue. It is different from landing a Cherokee or Arrow, or Any of the Cessna trainers. Not necessarily harder, just different. In the Comanche (and the Mooney) maintaining a given airspeed is crucial. With the design of the wing, if you come in too slow, there is no "mush" like you get with the other planes mentioned. When it's done flying, it's done flying. And if you come in too fast you will watch a whole lot of runway stripes pass under you before the wheels touch down. Both the Comanche and Mooney require one to be much more precise on speed control - which I personally think is a good thing to learn from the beginning. Which some may argue is why it wouldn't be a good plane to learn in. My counter to that is it makes you a more attentive and better pilot from the beginning.

If it is still for sale, you are more than welcome. In the meantime, I will keep flying it.
 
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Icarus said:
Ron Levy: My apologies about the delay. I am certainly not a rich guy. I work at a local gas station but fortunately overtime is abundant and I am currently financially sound enough to deal with school bills and hold onto a little extra cash. I fully intend on leasing the plane out to hopefully fully cover the routine expenses and possibly put a small amount of money into a mechanic fund. So the bare minimum cost for the maximum capability. After all isn't that what we all shoot for?
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You haven't answered my questions. When you tell me how much you can afford, I'll tell you what you can get for that money. But my guess based on what you said is "Not what you want."

And don't expect to lease the plane out to help cover expenses if you're getting the cheapest plane you can find because you can't afford it otherwise -- leasebacks are tricky financial transactions, and the inexperienced/unwary usually get hammered. And putting a PA24 on leaseback is, in my experience, a losing proposition.
 
Mooney makes an excellent trainer. The trouble people have with Mooneys is they try to land too fast. It's a slick plane so they eat up a lot of runway and/or try to drive it on; this leads to porpoising and a potential prop strike. Get an instructor that has time in Mooneys, go up and do an hour of slow flight and develop real Vso, 1.2Vso and 1.3Vso numbers and corresponding trim settings to use while you're getting used to the low speed handling characteristics.

The biggest problem people have with flying and learning to land is being uncomfortable or afraid of the low speed end of the envelope. This is what really should be the foundation building block of flight training to build up from. Get comfortable with low speed, do slow flight practice and see what power setting (and their associated sounds) correspond with what rates of climb and descent at the above listed speeds, and understand the control feel and limitations of those speeds as well. With that done and a couple or three high speed taxi wheelies down the full length of the runway will give you all the foundation pieces to developing good landings quickly and efficiently.
 
Ron, I didn't know you owned a Comanche.
 
Sheble's flight school has an old Mooney BTW if you want to get checked out in one and have a casino vacation around Laughlin NV at the same time... :D

The Mooney factory is still open and actually currently expanding. They support all their prior metal products I believe.
 
They also have a Beech 18 on floats. Just think - twin radials and floats.

I have no need of the rating, but it'd be fun getting it!
 
If I were going to college and working in a gas station I would be a long ways from buying an airplane. I would also not consider a lease back. Some work, some are nightmares. I would definitely not let anyone fly my mooney, ever. Good luck.
 
Jimmy coope: I'll have to look more into the Mooney as well then....

Ed: I'll have to think carefully about the Comanche then. I know it will fit my needs greatly but I don't want to but 'too much airplane' and I want to make sure that letting students fly it won't kill it. I'll just have to think about it then.

Ron: Well it's a difficult question to answer given my situation. I have the makings of a deal with the owner of a local flight school that may allow me to drastically decrease the money out of my pocket for expenses. Basically he'd have access to it for students wanting to pursue a commercial licensees and he'd pay for most of the upkeep and the hangar expense. There is also the possibility of us going into fractional ownership depending on how everything continues. For myself 30K isn't unreasonable with how much I have set back now and the fact my family is willing to help in exchange for frequent vacations. I could also muster some more if something opportune presented itself.

Henning: well it seems I'll just have to talk to my CFI. Thank you

Jimmy: I'm aware of the expenses and what they mean for someone in my position. I have no intention of running out and blowing my money. I am taking this one careful step at a time and being sure to do all my homework before I commit.
 
EdLarkin said:
They also have a Beech 18 on floats. Just think - twin radials and floats.

I have no need of the rating, but it'd be fun getting it!
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Yep, it's a fun couple of days, Jojo and I had a good couple of days buzzing Don Laughlins Penthouse.:D I would have loved to have a rear facing camera when I landed overtaking a pair of jet skis on the river.

He also has some gliders.
 
To thow another question in. How do you guys feel about the cherokee?
 
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