What methods/techniques to lower maintenance costs

Tony_Scarpelli

Tony_Scarpelli

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Tony_Scarpelli
There are owners who don't mind too much what they spend for maintenance and in the beginning we all sort of thing that the more we spend the better maintenance we have. At some point we figure out that is not necessarily true. It is better to spend our maintenance budget where it best helps.

I'm not a mechanic nor do I like doing mechanic work so I am not a good subject to do much mechanic directed work. I do enjoy buying and sourcing products so that is a strength. We need to find our strengths and use them.

So what ideas, strategies, techniques have you used to lower your maintenance bills on your aircraft?

1. As a new pilot some odd years ago I began by sourcing all parts and provided them to the A&P to install and paid him his labor but not his 40% markup on parts. I have seen mechanics who prefer this and others who refuse to do it. A subscription to tradeaplane is a good place to start here. I have sourced carburetors, mags, plugs, rebuilt cylinders, hoses, starter, vacuum pump, tach cable, tach, audio panel refurbishment/repair, fuel bladder, battery, even fuel.

2. i have sourced rebuilds/overhauls on parts such as my starter, prop and mags.

3. I took Savvy Aviators weekend seminar where I learned:

A. Never request a rebuild or over haul but to ask for I.R.A.N inspect and repair as necessary. When you use OH legally the shop is bound to replace many parts that are in perfect condition. This can save you up to half. I took my bendex mags to a bendex shop and I asked for an IRAN and the cost was $627 for 2 completely IRAN mags the bill would have been double that had I demanded a OH. According to the mag shop owner the mags I got will last the same 500 hr interval as OH mags (before needing checked again).

B. "conditioned based maintenance" as opposed to TBO or time based maintenance. This is a maintenance technique discovered by the Airlines. Nasa later came to the airlines to ask them to help them implement the program. Basically if an item can be inspected and it is expensive to replace then you inspect it for condition. Such as an engine. You can and should do oil analysis, oil filter tear down, oil screen cleaning and inspection, boroscope cylinders for early signs of failure, compression checks, inspect for oil leakage, inspect for oil usage and owner/pilot's opinion of the engine.

C. Cylinders are bolt on accessories so if one or more are failing you should take them off and repair them or swap for rebuilt ones.

A vacuum pump, is reasonably important, cannot easily be inspected and repaired compared to the cost of a new one so that would be an item that you might replace on TBO.

D. You can and should get a second opinion on expensive repairs recommended by your mechanic/inspector.

E. You should not use your IA to perform discrepancies to avoid conflict of interest. IA signs off plane with discrepancy list which you have taken care of by another mechanic.

F. If you disagree with an IA/mechanic have him stop and invoice you for his time and move your plane back to the hangar and have another mechanic come in.

G. Even when out of annual you can get a ferry permit with A&P's look and request to move the plane to another field where you might wish to have the maintenance/or annual performed.

H. Giving yourself more knowledge about what is legal/ or not gives you more bargaining power with your mechanic/IA.

I. Know the types of things that might get you broke down on the road and spend a bit more preventive maintenance on those items so you do not get held up with highway robbery.

J. Avoid getting work done on the road-see I above.

K. Every dollar you spend at your designated repair facility (which might be you in your hangar) saves 10-15x that amount by avoiding on the road break downs.

L. Owner supplied parts. You as the owner can source and supply parts to your mechanic. You can talk to your mechanic on what he will need to approve the part to install on your plane. You can take the designs, materials to a manufacturer or mechanic and have a part built for you. This part is called Owner supplied part. It is a perfectly legal way to save money. I had 14 hoses manufactured to replace on my plane. Had I purchased them all from Piper or Rajay turbo they would have cost me $2200 and I got them for $900.

J. Mil-Spec parts are normally considered appropriate replacement parts for aviation. So is the auto standard SAE.
 
That's a good list. Since I am mechanically inclined, I do certain work on the plane that would typically be high dollar for minimal return. Owner-supplied parts are a huge savings.

I do disagree with IRAN in certain cases. As an example, I'd rather buy a mag overhaul kit and just overhaul the things myself (save money). I've had bearings and those nylon gears go out without warning. Mag failures on the road suck, same for starters. Carry spares of both with you.
 
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Become familiar with AC's for instance AC23-17,


-VanDy
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That's a good list. Since I am mechanically inclined, I do certain work on the plane that would typically be high dollar for minimal return. Owner-supplied parts are a huge savings.

I do disagree with IRAN in certain cases. As an example, I'd rather buy a mag overhaul kit and just overhaul the things myself (save money). I've had bearings and those nylon gears go out without warning. Mag failures on the road suck, same for starters. Carry spares of both with you.
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I am taking A&P courses but I am still no mechanic. I like the knowledge.

I forgot that. Thanks -

This falls under what is likely to break on the road:
If it brakes, even if you find a mechanic you cannot get the part in Gallup, NM on Sunday night.

So I carry light bulbs, accessory belt, spark plug (red, blue or yellow chalk) with me on the road and a very small light & tool kit.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I do disagree with IRAN in certain cases. As an example, I'd rather buy a mag overhaul kit and just overhaul the things myself (save money). I've had bearings and those nylon gears go out without warning. Mag failures on the road suck, same for starters. Carry spares of both with you.
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Not to pick buckshot but neither an A&P nor and IA can OH a mag. They can only IRAN them.... You have to be a repair facility to sign off OH mags. With props they cannot even do that.

But I understand what you are saying that you prefer to replace more parts. This goes with the condition based maintenance rule. If it is cheap/cannot be inspected you replace it with time.

So while you have that mag apart go ahead and put in those nylon gears.

But again, this has nothing to do with the 99% of us who cannot IRAN our own mags. We can save money by requesting IRAN not OH.
 
One of the cheapest things you can do to lower your maintenance costs is a simple one.

buy the maintenance manual for your aircraft and follow the servicing set fourth in that manual.

Cleaning, servicing, refinishing, changing filters, lubrication are owner operator preventative maintenance items, the more often they are done the longer stuff lasts.

Both Cessna and Piper have a whole chapter given to care and feeding of your aircraft.

do it, do it often.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Not to pick buckshot but neither an A&P nor and IA can OH a mag. They can only IRAN them.... You have to be a repair facility to sign off OH mags. With props they cannot even do that.

But I understand what you are saying that you prefer to replace more parts. This goes with the condition based maintenance rule. If it is cheap/cannot be inspected you replace it with time.

So while you have that mag apart go ahead and put in those nylon gears.

But again, this has nothing to do with the 99% of us who cannot IRAN our own mags. We can save money by requesting IRAN not OH.
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What stops me from overhauling a mag?

show me the reg.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I am taking A&P courses but I am still no mechanic. I like the knowledge.

I forgot that. Thanks -

This falls under what is likely to break on the road:
If it brakes, even if you find a mechanic you cannot get the part in Gallup, NM on Sunday night.

So I carry light bulbs, accessory belt, spark plug (red, blue or yellow chalk) with me on the road and a very small light & tool kit.
Click to expand...

Correct. What your parts and tools list is should vary depending on the plane. For me with a mag, starter, and basic hand tools, and a Swiss Army Knife I can handle about any common failure that comes up. If it's a bigger deal than that, I'm in a bad spot. With two alternators, I'm not going to mess with fixing a belt or changing an alternator on the road.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Not to pick buckshot but neither an A&P nor and IA can OH a mag. They can only IRAN them.... You have to be a repair facility to sign off OH mags. With props they cannot even do that.

But I understand what you are saying that you prefer to replace more parts. This goes with the condition based maintenance rule. If it is cheap/cannot be inspected you replace it with time.

So while you have that mag apart go ahead and put in those nylon gears.

But again, this has nothing to do with the 99% of us who cannot IRAN our own mags. We can save money by requesting IRAN not OH.
Click to expand...

I understand your point and you are correct, most folks can't replace all the parts in their own mags.

But assuming your A&P is comfortable doing so, then I would say you're typically better off replacing more parts than fewer. I base this on probably 8 mag failures I've had. Since I travel far from home all the time, this is part of my reasoning.
 
I've heard of some putting a backup belt on when they maintenance the prop and securing it for later use so if they have a failure it can be easily installed without prop removal.
 
From the seminars I have been a part of the Savy Aviator (Mike Busch) does not advocate IRAN on a Mag because it is a big safety item. I think the same holds true for a vacuum pump. They have a service life that will not likely be extended by enough to take the chance. If I have misquoted Mike, my apologies, but I am pretty sure that is his stance on those two items.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I've heard of some putting a backup belt on when they maintenance the prop and securing it for later use so if they have a failure it can be easily installed without prop removal.
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This doesn't strike me as a great idea. But it does point out why it's nice to have rear-mount alternators. :D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This doesn't strike me as a great idea. But it does point out why it's nice to have rear-mount alternators. :D
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I can't remember but I think we did this on the Cherokee. We took the prop off replaced the belt and added a 2nd one for hours gone by. At the time I was flying it over 300 hrs a year.

He told me it wasn't quite kosher. So I was surprised when one of the instructors brought it up in school years later.
 
Henning said:
Fly 65% power 15 LOP.
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Next time we fly together I will have to check my technique because I seem to loose too much speed using the same fuel consumption LOP over ROP. I just pull back and go 65%. I can't remember exactly but I am thinking it cost me 4 knots ROP and 10 knots LOP.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Next time we fly together I will have to check my technique because I seem to loose too much speed using the same fuel consumption LOP over ROP. I just pull back and go 65%. I can't remember exactly but I am thinking it cost me 4 knots ROP and 10 knots LOP.
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You don't use charted values to judge % power LOP, the table numbers only work ROP as they were developed, you use airspeed. Try this next time. Get up, leveled out, set 65% power by the book MP & RPM numbers and method (ROP) for the altitude and note your IAS. Now lean to 15* LOP and push the throttle forward to get your speed back. Now you are flying 65% power 15* LOP.
 
I knew there was a reason I was missing Scarpelli branded threads.

Good stuff Tony!

(goes off to bookmark this thread)
 
tmyers said:
From the seminars I have been a part of the Savy Aviator (Mike Busch) does not advocate IRAN on a Mag because it is a big safety item. I think the same holds true for a vacuum pump. They have a service life that will not likely be extended by enough to take the chance. If I have misquoted Mike, my apologies, but I am pretty sure that is his stance on those two items.
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Not on mags...unless he changed his position we were specifically talking about mags when he brought up the topic. we were talking about Bendix maybe your talking slick mags....I hear you cannot get parts for slick mags.

If it can be disassembled inspected and worn parts replaced or repaired then IRAN, if not then buy new.

A vacuum pump is $150 a Mag is about $700....
 
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Henning said:
You don't use charted values to judge % power LOP, the table numbers only work ROP as they were developed, you use airspeed. Try this next time. Get up, leveled out, set 65% power by the book MP & RPM numbers and method (ROP) for the altitude and note your IAS. Now lean to 15* LOP and push the throttle forward to get your speed back. Now you are flying 65% power 15* LOP.
Click to expand...

OK I will try that one...
 
AggieMike88 said:
I knew there was a reason I was missing Scarpelli branded threads.

Good stuff Tony!

(goes off to bookmark this thread)
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Thanks Mike.....I like to save my friends money....confront authority...shake things up a bit. :)) Life is short.
 
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The only discussion I ever heard among Lyc owners was how to best protect the spare.
Ted DuPuis said:
This doesn't strike me as a great idea. But it does point out why it's nice to have rear-mount alternators. :D
Click to expand...
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Not on mags...unless he changed his position we were specifically talking about mags when he brought up the topic.
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There is no restriction on A&Ps overhauling any mag.

simply comply with 43.2 and 43.13
 
JHW said:
it strikes me as a great idea, which is why all 3 of my lycomings have extra belts.
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Different strokes. Taking the prop off isn't that big of a deal to me, even thoiugh it's annoying to have to do just to change a belt. I'd rather not have the belt hanging around there. And also since I've had to have the prop off more than once in 1,000 hours of Aztec ownership, we usually just change it while there. Cheap part.

But hey, if it works for you, good deal. :)
 
The only things I am aware of that an A&P can't "overhaul" are instruments and propellers.

As for mags, specifically Slick mags, you can get parts but if you replace points, rotor, distributor block, condenser and seal you are going to be 80% of the cost of buying a brand new one. If you need a coil you'll be over the cost of new. At least that's how it was a few years ago, not sure if things have changed since Champion took over.

Bendix mags, now the property of Continental (TCM) are ultimately more rebuildable than Slicks but cost more. There was a time when Slick would give you a smoking deal on a new set of mags if you turned in your Bendix as cores, which they then would destroy. I never thought very highly of them because of that.

As for saving money on maintenance I'll second what Tom said: educate yourself and take better day to day care of your machine. A few broken Lord mounts on your cowling can eventually lead to a destroyed air box if not addressed and now you have just upped your costs a thousand percent. Carrying around half the aircraft's parts inventory in the baggage compartment is a bit over the top and most likely won't work in the end.

It reminds me of the time I went to bring an airplane home. We loaded up the truck with all the tools and equipment and supplies we thought we'd need to get the thing airworthy and fly it home. I spent an entire day scratching my head loading more and more items into the truck. Just like the line from that Pink Floyd song "Learning to Fly " I thought I'd thought of everything. So we drive 300 miles overnight and when we arrive at the airplane I go "okay, first thing to do is put air in the tires"

I could see it clearly in my mind - the air chuck hanging on the pegboard in the garage back home. That was just the first of several things I had to buy at the local hardware store.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Thank you Tom....How about landing gear transmission? Can IA rebuild those?
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It doesn't require an IA, unless the repair was a major repair or alteration.

the IA is only a "inspection authorization"

The only gear box the A&P "P" can't do are the ones excluded in the FAR 65.

Note :

I just checked the regulations on mechanic privileges and there is no longer any restrictions on the "P" about the type of geared engines they can overhaul. They have taken it out when they rewrote to include the light sport aircraft.
 
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Guess it gets confusing because WEBCO the Comanche specialists in Newton Kansas got called on the carpet for among other things signing OH on the Comanche transmission. They did not have a PMA or STC or authorized repair designation.

Bob Webber and John spent over $400k fighting with FAA and they were gunning for both of their A&P's and that they never work in aviation again. The government ultimately lost but they are out $400k so hard to say that WEBCO won.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Guess it gets confusing because WEBCO the Comanche specialists in Newton Kansas got called on the carpet for among other things signing OH on the Comanche transmission. They did not have a PMA or STC or authorized repair designation.

Bob Webber and John spent over $400k fighting with FAA and they were gunning for both of their A&P's and that they never work in aviation again. The government ultimately lost but they are out $400k so hard to say that WEBCO won.
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Were they a CRS?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Different strokes. Taking the prop off isn't that big of a deal to me, even thoiugh it's annoying to have to do just to change a belt.
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The last time I used the spare I was pulling the engines through and found a piece of baffling had broken loose and cut most of the way through the belt. It was on an unattended airport in western kansas after dark on a sunday night. I had with me only a screwdriver and tools to change a sparkplug. I was on my way home in less than an hour.

An extra belt costs the same money as 10 minutes of fuel. IMO it's stupid to not have one available.
 
I love my rear mounted alternators, changing a belt takes 2 minutes or less.:D
 
Henning said:
I love my rear mounted alternators, changing a belt takes 2 minutes or less.:D
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Rear-mounted alternators of the world unite!

I think it's stupid to buy a plane with a front-mount alternator. And to only have one of them on the plane. ;)
 
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