What legal recourse do we have?

U

Unregistered

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Ok, so I was a pilot flying an aerial photography mission, let's say two weeks ago. Get a call from an FAA guy about whether or not I was PIC on aircraft NXXXXX. He says that some airline captain got our tail number and said that we were cruising around his neighborhood for 30 minutes at 3-500 feet. Now not only is this not true, but it is a false accusation. We were at or above 1000' over the nearest obstacles at all times and were only on station for 15 minutes, not 30. I'm quite confident that the radar tapes will show this in addition to the pictures the photographer took. We are fully cooperating, but nagging questions remain.
So, generally, there is supposed to be a right to face your accuser, no? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why would some airline pilot falsely accuse us and report us to the FAA?
 
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I can tell, the sixth amendment only applies to criminal prosecution. Flying too low is not necessarily a criminal act.

Are you really worried that there is going to be action against you, or is this just an inconvenience?
 
Don't know why someone on the ground would falsely accuse; may be airline pilot, may not, that would not (in any event) qualify him to make an accurate assessment of altitude.

As for "innocent until proven guilty," that concept relates to criminal charges, not to administrative charges (like allegations of FAR violations). Of course, the FAA will, when a complaint is made, investigate and see what substance there is there. Many FAA inquiries yield no action at all.

Stonewalling may not a a sound strategy; you may wish to consult with a qualified aviation attorney before jumping into the process.
 
It just seems to me that this guy could be calling five times a week on unsuspecting, legal-altitude pilots, and causing them loss of time, hassle, etc...
 
Have you received a LOI (Letter of Investigation)?

Your best bet is to cooperate, state your side of the story. More than likely this will be dropped with informal counseling.

If that doesn't do it for you, give an attorney a call.
 
Yeah talk to a avaiation lawyer, Id also try to find out who he is, can't be too many airline pilots in the neighborhood, search the airmans database based on location, the guy should hold a ATP. Also asking around

Once you find him Id sue him for slander, have the papers delevered to his address, see if be still wants to play the game when he knows he also has something to loose now too.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Have you received a LOI (Letter of Investigation)?

Your best bet is to cooperate, state your side of the story. More than likely this will be dropped with informal counseling.

If that doesn't do it for you, give an attorney a call.
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No, and the FAA guy is going to review the radar tapes. Pretty sure nothing will come of it and not worried about it at all. Just think the guy on the ground is a... maybe jerk is the kind way to put it?
 
James331 said:
Yeah talk to a avaiation lawyer, Id also try to find out who he is, can't be too many airline pilots in the neighborhood, search the airmans database using the county and or zip, the guy should hold a ATP. Also asking around

Once you find him Id sue him for slander, have the papers delevered to his address, see if be still wants to play the game when he knows he also has something to loose now too.
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Total BS, go ask an attorney why that won't work.:rolleyes2:
 
James331 said:
Yeah talk to a avaiation lawyer, Id also try to find out who he is, can't be too many airline pilots in the neighborhood, search the airmans database using the county and or zip, the guy should hold a ATP. Also asking around

Once you find him Id sue him for slander, have the papers delevered to his address, see if be still wants to play the game when he knows he also has something to loose now too.
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I hate rat pilots. If the OP really wants to play ball find out where the guy flies and rat him out(justified or otherwise.) You wanna start throwing bureaucrats around well we'll throw em right back at ya.
 
Of course the FAA didn't want to let us know who complained... gotta protect them of course. I don't want to physically hurt him, or even financially hurt him. I just think he should think twice before making the call and I would like to show him my evidence that we weren't doing what he said we were doing.
 
Guy could be the equivalent of the woman in Sedona who is convinced that every jet that lands there does so after dumping fuel on her.
 
Administrative law. Far lower burden of proof and far more protections for the complainant.
 
Unregistered said:
Of course the FAA didn't want to let us know who complained... gotta protect them of course. I don't want to physically hurt him, or even financially hurt him. I just think he should think twice before making the call and I would like to show him my evidence that we weren't doing what he said we were doing.
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Under the Pilot Bill of Rights you can obtain a copy of the complaint.
 
Maybe it'll go like this: FAA guy - Aww, geez, another complaint from that guy. But since he called it in, and it got tossed onto my desk, I have to follow up so I can put a check in the box. OK, let me get with the pilot of the plane, get his side of the story just to make sure he really wasn't at 300', and close out the report.
 
James331 said:
Once you find him Id sue him for slander, have the papers delevered to his address, see if be still wants to play the game when he knows he also has something to loose now too.
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OK, let's say you do that.

The elements of defamation (either slander or libel) are pretty simple:

The defendant must publish (make to a third party) a false statement of fact that causes damage to the plaintiff.

OK, let's look at these.

False statement of fact: That depends what he said. If he said "I think this guys is flying 300' AGL", that's a statement of opinion, and not actionable because it was clearly a statement of opinion.

Third Party: Yep, if he told the FAA, that is covered.

Damages: If the complaint is investigated and dismissed, any damages caused would be de minimis. If investigated and action taken, then likely they were true.

So, you fail 2 of the 3 requirements for a defamation action right off the top. Next up, the defendant will argue defenses to defamation. As mentioned under damages, truth is an absolute defense. Additionally, statements made in good faith and reasonable belief that they were true are likewise defensible. There's also the defense of fair comment on a matter of public interest.

Regardless, bringing such an action will cost you well into the 5-figures range, and the odds of actually winning are practically zero. If you were to sue me on such a case, I would seek my defense costs from you as well, likely costing you well into six-figures for your harassment suit.

IANAL, but someone who deals with legal issues on a day to day basis.
 
Unregistered said:
Ok, so I was a pilot flying an aerial photography mission, let's say two weeks ago. Get a call from an FAA guy about whether or not I was PIC on aircraft NXXXXX. He says that some airline captain got our tail number and said that we were cruising around his neighborhood for 30 minutes at 3-500 feet. Now not only is this not true, but it is a false accusation. We were at or above 1000' over the nearest obstacles at all times and were only on station for 15 minutes, not 30. I'm quite confident that the radar tapes will show this in addition to the pictures the photographer took. We are fully cooperating, but nagging questions remain.
So, generally, there is supposed to be a right to face your accuser, no? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why would some airline pilot falsely accuse us and report us to the FAA?
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This actually happened to me many years ago. Same situation, doing aerial mapping. The inspector pretty much apologized for the fact that he was making the call but said that they had to follow up on all complaints. Nothing happened.
 
Matthew said:
Maybe it'll go like this: FAA guy - Aww, geez, another complaint from that guy. But since he called it in, and it got tossed onto my desk, I have to follow up so I can put a check in the box. OK, let me get with the pilot of the plane, get his side of the story just to make sure he really wasn't at 300', and close out the report.
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Correct.

When the complaint comes in, it's issued a tracking number (PTRS). The assigned Inspector must investigate and close out the file. With everything else on his desk and work program he's not going to devote any more time than necessary on this.
 
So basically some guy can waste a bunch of people's time, falsely "accuse" them, and there's really nothing that can be done about it.
 
JeffDG said:
OK, let's say you do that.

The elements of defamation (either slander or libel) are pretty simple:

The defendant must publish (make to a third party) a false statement of fact that causes damage to the plaintiff.

OK, let's look at these.

False statement of fact: That depends what he said. If he said "I think this guys is flying 300' AGL", that's a statement of opinion, and not actionable because it was clearly a statement of opinion.

Third Party: Yep, if he told the FAA, that is covered.

Damages: If the complaint is investigated and dismissed, any damages caused would be de minimis. If investigated and action taken, then likely they were true.

So, you fail 2 of the 3 requirements for a defamation action right off the top. Next up, the defendant will argue defenses to defamation. As mentioned under damages, truth is an absolute defense. Additionally, statements made in good faith and reasonable belief that they were true are likewise defensible. There's also the defense of fair comment on a matter of public interest.

Regardless, bringing such an action will cost you well into the 5-figures range, and the odds of actually winning are practically zero. If you were to sue me on such a case, I would seek my defense costs from you as well, likely costing you well into six-figures for your harassment suit.

IANAL, but someone who deals with legal issues on a day to day basis.
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First Id guess if they guy identifies himself as a "airline captan" or whatever he probably said the plane was flying at XXX altitude, not he thought it was.

Second of you have to take time off work, or seek a lawyer that's damages.

Third even if the slander aspect is not a feasible option, it would be a smart idea to articulate somehow that this persons behavior will not be tolerated.
 
Unregistered said:
"We are fully cooperating"
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Be very careful. An FAA guy could call you and ask for a quick paragragh to clear this up, and all they are looking for is a written self confession that can and will be used against you.

The FAA are experts at issuing violations and know all the little tricks and traps to get a pilot to confess without proper representation. And most pilots are more than willing and say way too much. Get an expert on aviation law to work for you.

This is civil, not criminal. You have no rights except to be given notice that you are under investigation.

Hopefully after reviewing the radar this will pass, but just don't ignore it. There will be some people here that will tell me that "lawyering up" just ****es off the FAA, and to me those people are just stupid.
 
Unregistered said:
So basically some guy can waste a bunch of people's time, falsely "accuse" them, and there's really nothing that can be done about it.
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Yup. If revenge is your pleasure play the same game. Oh airline pilot you say. Heck just accuse him of lying on his medical.:lol:
 
If the FAA asks for a written statement,or permission to tape your conversation,say no and get a good lawyer. I wouldn't waste my time looking for the complaintant since his info is probably false.
 
frfly172 said:
If the FAA asks for a written statement,or permission to tape your conversation,say no and get a good lawyer. I wouldn't waste my time looking for the complaintant since his info is probably false.
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It was you.:rofl:
 
Zeldman said:
Be very careful. An FAA guy could call you and ask for a quick paragragh to clear this up, and all they are looking for is a written self confession that can and will be used against you.

The FAA are experts at issuing violations and know all the little tricks and traps to get a pilot to confess without proper representation. And most pilots are more than willing and say way too much. Get an expert on aviation law to work for you.

This is civil, not criminal. You have no rights except to be given notice that you are under investigation.

Hopefully after reviewing the radar this will pass, but just don't ignore it. There will be some people here that will tell me that "lawyering up" just ****es off the FAA, and to me those people are just stupid.
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I'm a former ASI, and your diatribe is pure internet BS.

You have no clue as to what it takes to write a violation. It's not a quick process, and most Inspectors really don't relish the thought of doing a violation unless it's really necessary and there is no other recourse such as formal counseling or at worst a SNAAP.

Most ASI's have a full work load in their work program plus other duties, and getting a PD (pilot deviation) is just more pile on the desk, so the quicker to get it closed out the better. When someone decides "lawyer up" and refuse to cooperate, then yes they are taking a small situation and escalating it. "lawyer up" all you want, but remember all the Inspector has to do is issue you a 44709 letter and there isn't much your lawyer can do for you now.

Most PD's are done and gone very quickly. Cooperation goes a long way in making it go away.
 
I myself might ask them to prove it. What means were used to monitor altitude and duration? If it's witness testimony I'd ask how the witness measured these parameters. The FAA can't just level charges without proof, even in administrative law.
 
steingar said:
I myself might ask them to prove it. What means were used to monitor altitude and duration? If it's witness testimony I'd ask how the witness measured these parameters. The FAA can't just level charges without proof, even in administrative law.
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Who said "charges" are being made?? :dunno:

It's a complaint, nothing more. :rolleyes2:
 
If you have a JPI connected to GPS, you can download your flight and send it to them, will be time stamp with altitude, position, let them chew on that
 
Remember, the FAA isn't the problem. If somebody files a complaint they have to check it out. Help them find cause to dismiss it.
 
Matthew said:
Maybe it'll go like this: FAA guy - Aww, geez, another complaint from that guy. But since he called it in, and it got tossed onto my desk, I have to follow up so I can put a check in the box. OK, let me get with the pilot of the plane, get his side of the story just to make sure he really wasn't at 300', and close out the report.
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RotorAndWing said:
Correct.

When the complaint comes in, it's issued a tracking number (PTRS). The assigned Inspector must investigate and close out the file. With everything else on his desk and work program he's not going to devote any more time than necessary on this.
Click to expand...

RotorAndWing said:
I'm a former ASI, and your diatribe is pure internet BS.

You have no clue as to what it takes to write a violation. It's not a quick process, and most Inspectors really don't relish the thought of doing a violation unless it's really necessary and there is no other recourse such as formal counseling or at worst a SNAAP.

Most ASI's have a full work load in their work program plus other duties, and getting a PD (pilot deviation) is just more pile on the desk, so the quicker to get it closed out the better. When someone decides "lawyer up" and refuse to cooperate, then yes they are taking a small situation and escalating it. "lawyer up" all you want, but remember all the Inspector has to do is issue you a 44709 letter and there isn't much your lawyer can do for you now.

Most PD's are done and gone very quickly. Cooperation goes a long way in making it go away.
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I guess I should append my original scenario:

"Aww, geez, another complaint from that guy. But since he called it in, and it got tossed onto my desk, I have to follow up so I can put a check in the box. OK, let me get with the pilot of the plane, get his side of the story just to make sure he really wasn't at 300', and close out the report.

Should take 10 minutes, tops. Unless the guy panics or lawyers up and makes me late for lunch."
 
He was just jealous that you get to go play and he has to drive the bus in the morning...
 
James331 said:
Yeah talk to a avaiation lawyer, Id also try to find out who he is, can't be too many airline pilots in the neighborhood, search the airmans database based on location, the guy should hold a ATP. Also asking around

Once you find him Id sue him for slander, have the papers delevered to his address, see if be still wants to play the game when he knows he also has something to loose now too.
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Really bad advice. That could be construed as criminal harassment. Get legal advice before you try a stunt like that. I'm with R&W -- as long as you know you didn't do what this person said, just cooperate with the investigation and it will all go away. And make sure you put in a request for any radar tapes from that area before they're automatically wiped.
 
Zeldman said:
This is civil, not criminal. You have no rights except to be given notice that you are under investigation.
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Not exactly true. You have most of the same rights as a criminal defendant (right to remain silent, right to counsel, etc) except the right to an attorney at government expense and to be given warnings of your right to remain silent and be represented before questioning, and even that has changed some with the PBOR.
 
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