What is your CFI's weather philosophy for lessons?

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drotto

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drotto
I have about 14 hours now, but it has taken me about 3 months almost 4 to get there due to personal obligations and mainly weather. I get up there everytime I get a chance, but this winter in the Northeast has been a pain so far.

I really like the CFI I have found, and he (for meat least) has a good balence of teaching, letting me fly, making corrections, but also keeping it fun. Plus, he seems to be a really good pilot, and every time we have flown the conditions were wll within his skill level. He also spends alot of time stressing what is safe, know your limits, and what never to do.

We actually managed to get up for about 30 minutes right before the bigish snowstorm this past Tuesday morning, but cut it short as the ceiling started to come down rapidly. I was actually kinda cool and dramatic to watch it from the air. Since we were only doing pattern work, it was well within safety range, and we stoppen when they stated to get low. We have flown on several occasions where he has stated the conditions were right at the edge of going up; nearly direct crosswinds ( about 12 knots), winds gusting to 20 plus knots but right down the numbers, even one day when the runway was slightly icy. His philosophy is this is winter flying in the Northeast, and he would rather I experience and learn in sub optimal conditions, because that is the real world. He does not want me flying on only perfect days, get my PPL and be in trouble in sub optimal conditions. In the end he says it will make me a better pilot. Plus, right now if I waited for a perfect day it may be 2 months before I go up again.

I was just wondering under what kinds of conditions other students and CFI's tend to fly under?
 
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Unless it was IFR, we went in all weather, actually we even went in IMC once for a learning experience. We didn't have icing conditions to deal with though. Did my night in Santana winds of 40+ kts.
 
I was like Henning. We went most of the time. I agree with your CFI.
 
I've been taking lessons since July and just now am doing some xc. The summer was nothing but rain so it took me pretty much the same amount of time to get the hours you have. Due to strong winds I didn't start being in full command on landings until at least 15 hours. Ready for solo around 25 hours but Wx got in the way again for about another 10. Another school regularly goes up when the ceiling is 1000' to less than 1500'. There have been several times I thought we could have probably gone up with no issues but overall my CFI has had pretty good foresight. A couple times he said we shouldn't go up and apologized later because a front didn't come through as planned and Wx would have been fine. So he's been pretty conservative. The funny thing is I had a dead calm day the other day and I about didn't know how to fly. We're definitely flying in conditions now that he would have never brought me up in at the beginning.
 
20 knot winds out here are the calm days. As to how much wind I'll fly with a student in it really depends on their personality.
 
The CFI did also stated that he has known CFI's that will only take students up in near ideal conditions. He personally feels this is detramental to the student in the long run. He seems to like the days that are a little bumpy.

He also pulled his first takeoff roll "malfuction" on me this week. He applied the left break causing the plane to turn dramatically to the left during initial portion of the roll when we were already at full throttle. He smiled and said he just wanted to see how I would react. Small pat on my own back, but I did the exactly right thing.
 
I intentionally seek out marginal weather in order to introduce the conditions to students.
 
write-stuff said:
I intentionally seek out marginal weather in order to introduce the conditions to students.
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He has already said we may intentionally seak out runways with crosswinds in the future. At our little airport, this does not seem to be much of an issue.
 
It really depends.

When learning the mechanics of landing for the first time, calm inverted conditions in the early morning are nice. That's when you get the textbook landings.

Beyond that, it's a good idea to shake the student up with normal turbulence and winds.

It's also substantially different solo vs. dual.

Even now as a 210 hour private pilot, I'll go up with an instructor in highly marginal weather that I would skip if solo. I did my initial complex checkout darting among the cumulus clouds (modified by terrain, so highly dynamic), with the occasional light rain shower. Really valuable experience.
 
Yep...only time we changed a flight for weather was once when I was supposed to be heading out on a solo, the crosswinds were beyond what I'd done and pretty gusty, so instead we turned it into a dual, and I got some fantastic crosswind practice. Gave me a lot more confidence dealing with crosswinds after that too.
 
I'm and instrument student, and generally there are three things where we don't go:

1. Known icing
2. Major snow storms
3. Horrible wind gust of 25+ knots
 
drotto said:
I have about 14 hours now, but it has taken me about 3 months almost 4 to get there due to personal obligations and mainly weather. I get up there everytime I get a chance, but this winter in the Northeast has been a pain so far.

I really like the CFI I have found, and he (for meat least) has a good balence of teaching, letting me fly, making corrections, but also keeping it fun. Plus, he seems to be a really good pilot, and every time we have flown the conditions were wll within his skill level. He also spends alot of time stressing what is safe, know your limits, and what never to do.

We actually managed to get up for about 30 minutes right before the bigish snowstorm this past Tuesday morning, but cut it short as the ceiling started to come down rapidly. I was actually kinda cool and dramatic to watch it from the air. Since we were only doing pattern work, it was well within safety range, and we stoppen when they stated to get low. We have flown on several occasions where he has stated the conditions were right at the edge of going up; nearly direct crosswinds ( about 12 knots), winds gusting to 20 plus knots but right down the numbers, even one day when the runway was slightly icy. His philosophy is this is winter flying in the Northeast, and he would rather I experience and learn in sub optimal conditions, because that is the real world. He does not want me flying on only perfect days, get my PPL and be in trouble in sub optimal conditions. In the end he says it will make me a better pilot. Plus, right now if I waited for a perfect day it may be 2 months before I go up again.

I was just wondering under what kinds of conditions other students and CFI's tend to fly under?
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My philosophy as well. Sounds like a keeper to me. I've done exactly the same thing numerous times.
I have told all my students that if it is legal to fly and they want to fly, I will fly with them (before or after their ratings). At times there have been some rather short flights :eek:
It is important to be able to correlate what you perceive from a weather briefing and what it looks like when you are in the air. Most pilots are flabbergasted what 3 (or even 5) miles visibility looks like in the air the first time they see it. It is also rather cool to see local rain and show showers (I live in MI) from the air and see how fast and unpredictably they can move at times.
 
DGlaeser said:
My philosophy as well. Sounds like a keeper to me. I've done exactly the same thing numerous times.
I have told all my students that if it is legal to fly and they want to fly, I will fly with them (before or after their ratings). At times there have been some rather short flights :eek:
It is important to be able to correlate what you perceive from a weather briefing and what it looks like when you are in the air. Most pilots are flabbergasted what 3 (or even 5) miles visibility looks like in the air the first time they see it. It is also rather cool to see local rain and show showers (I live in MI) from the air and see how fast and unpredictably they can move at times.
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I had one flight where we went up, the CFI looked around, basically did an extended pattern, landed and that was it for the day. It was before I started my pattern work, and it was supposed to be a slow flight day, the ceiling was about 2000 so we could not get to the 3500 we needed. If I was ready for pattern at that time, I think we may have stayed with it.

My most interesting "lesson" was a flight cut short by a full out tach failure. Certainly not an emergency, but a deffinate land safely when you practically can moment. The irony was the ground talk that day was what constitutes an emergency get down now vs. it is a good idea to get down when you can.
 
Stuff is going to happen and it's important to keep flying the plane and identify severity accurately and quickly. I had panel lighting blow out at night recently, at low altitude (under Class B) on a 10 mile 45. I kept the settings constant until I'd cleared the bridge and then dug out the flashlight for speed reduction and GUMPS.

That's obviously not an emergency, but you do need to prioritize. Goal #1 was remaining separate from the bridge or the bay. Goal #2 was staying out of Class B. Goal #3 was getting configured for landing. Goal #4 was finding the airport (not hard -- I was already pointed at it). Goal #5 was finding the FN flashlight. Yes, I would have landed without it if I had any trouble finding it.
 
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Depends on where the pilot is in his training and where we are located. Lesson 1? I like a nice day, no turbulence. As we progress I ratchet it up. I look for IMC days so the student can really see what IMC is like.
Just as important is to correlate what you see in the METAR/TAF and other reports with what you see outside.
Winds depends on direction and where I am located. When I taught in NM winds over 25 knots normally meant a really bad ride in the mountains.
 
One of my CFIs loves crosswinds. I can gurantee you the C150 is capable of more than a 12 knot crosswind.
 
For PP students, general guidelines of winds need to be <= 25 kts and VFR conditions for dual. Not set in stone. I've done lessons in stronger winds and with SVFR.
 
When I did my PPL, the max wind we would go up in was 20 kts. When my instructor signed me off for my solo, I believe the endorsement was for >3000 ft ceiling and <15 kts wind
 
I'll never forget the time I was on a dual XC in the (t)rusty old 150 with my first primary CFI, still pre-solo due to problems with my 3rd class. We did some very fun pattern work at Merillat field south of Tecumseh, then on the way back a sudden snowstorm moved in from nowhere, ambushed us. CFI took the controls, I pulled up the chart and we diverted to PTK as the vis threatened to drop below 3 miles. We (actually, Greg) landed in the nick of time, tied the bird down, and waited in what was then IFL East for my Dad to come and pick us up.

Greg is probably the most conservative CFI I've ever met -- if there's rain or snow within 20 miles, and the bird is not legal for IFR, he won't fly. But he's one of the best instructors I've ever flown with, and I'd recommend him hands down to anyone who wants to learn to fly. Unfortunately, I had serious misgivings about the 150's airworthiness based on the (apparent*) owner's attitude toward maintenance and a few blemishes that to me seemed like red flags, so after soloing I finished up my PPL with a different instructor out at 76G.

Those were the days. :yesnod:

(Dennis knows exactly of whom I speak. ;))

*We learned much later that the registered owner was a dead man, and that the person we thought was the owner had actually stolen the plane from his estate.
 
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One of the first things my CFI said back in 2000 was, "I have an instrument rating and I'm not afraid to use it." Now, he did have his ATP and had flown for an airline, so there was some significant experience behind that statement. I did my PP starting in summer, flying through the fall and winter and taking the ride in early spring. Here in the Pacific Northwe(s)t that means that you will fly in some not so perfect weather. It's good training. If nothing else, you get exposed to marginal conditions and gain an understanding of what they look like from the air. And why you might not want to fly in them again until you get your IR.
 
Henning said:
Unless it was IFR, we went in all weather, actually we even went in IMC once for a learning experience. We didn't have icing conditions to deal with though. Did my night in Santana winds of 40+ kts.
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somorris said:
I was like Henning. We went most of the time. I agree with your CFI.
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Sums it up for me too.
 
...my CFI is also ATP rated with around 20k hours so he told me he'd fly in anything I was comfortable flying in. I think we only cancelled a few times for weather and those were around the solo time where it wouldn't have made any sense.

We flew several times in IMC, great learning experience, and I earned my wings in the central Texas winter/spring where 20kt winds were pretty normal. So, I got used to flying that way. I did my solo at 7am on a day with literally zero wind and it was one of the hardest landings I ever did. :) Kept waiting for a big gust or something to blow me around but instead it was like landing a hot air balloon...just floated straight right down.

You'll quickly figure out what your comfortable with and your CFI will keep you away when it's too nasty and you won't get much accomplished. It's good to practice stuff like steep turns and S-turns when there's some wind - but if it's blowing 30kts at 2-3k feet then it's just going to be frustrating. You can never get too much crosswind takeoff/landing experience though, IMHO. My field is towered and fairly busy so it was tough for us to get off-runway landings into direct crosswinds but my CFI would ask for them all the time.
 
drotto said:
I have about 14 hours now, but it has taken me about 3 months almost 4 to get there due to personal obligations and mainly weather. I get up there everytime I get a chance, but this winter in the Northeast has been a pain so far.

I really like the CFI I have found, and he (for meat least) has a good balence of teaching, letting me fly, making corrections, but also keeping it fun. Plus, he seems to be a really good pilot, and every time we have flown the conditions were wll within his skill level. He also spends alot of time stressing what is safe, know your limits, and what never to do.

We actually managed to get up for about 30 minutes right before the bigish snowstorm this past Tuesday morning, but cut it short as the ceiling started to come down rapidly. I was actually kinda cool and dramatic to watch it from the air. Since we were only doing pattern work, it was well within safety range, and we stoppen when they stated to get low. We have flown on several occasions where he has stated the conditions were right at the edge of going up; nearly direct crosswinds ( about 12 knots), winds gusting to 20 plus knots but right down the numbers, even one day when the runway was slightly icy. His philosophy is this is winter flying in the Northeast, and he would rather I experience and learn in sub optimal conditions, because that is the real world. He does not want me flying on only perfect days, get my PPL and be in trouble in sub optimal conditions. In the end he says it will make me a better pilot. Plus, right now if I waited for a perfect day it may be 2 months before I go up again.

I was just wondering under what kinds of conditions other students and CFI's tend to fly under?
Click to expand...

Also currently training in the northeast, at KFRG. Only time we dont go up is when the ceiling is below 1200. Need to learn to fly with winds.
 
I try to minimize cancelling. If there is something that can be safely done and the student will benefit from the experience, we go. If it is obviously above the capabilities of the student (i.e. I probably wouldn't do pattern work with a 10 hour student if the wind is gusting into the mid to high 20's or 30's-there comes a point where things become so challenging for the typical student that learning stops making the lesson a waste of time) or just plain unsafe, we cancel.
 
Ghery said:
One of the first things my CFI said back in 2000 was, "I have an instrument rating and I'm not afraid to use it." Now, he did have his ATP and had flown for an airline, so there was some significant experience behind that statement. I did my PP starting in summer, flying through the fall and winter and taking the ride in early spring. Here in the Pacific Northwe(s)t that means that you will fly in some not so perfe weather. It's good training. If nothing else, you get exposed to marginal conditions and gain a understanding of what they look like from the air. And why you might not want to fly in them again until you get your IR.
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If some workable marginal VFR comes up (not terribly common around here), I like to take them up in it, so they can atleast see what it looks like. If anything, it just might discourage them from trying scud run in the mountains or something equally dangerous for the typical fair weather flyer. A big trend I'm starting to notice is low time pilots who have minimal wind/less than perfect weather experience when they get out of training and set extremely conservative personal minimums for themselves to counter that lack of experience. While being conservative is good, what happens when they go to get that $100 hamburger and the wind changes to something above those personal minimums enroute and they bend the airplane due to little or no high wind experience? Obviously, one should never launch into conditions they are uncomfortable with, but stuff changes and not knowing how to deal with it due to having an overly conservative instructor is bs.
 
asgcpa said:
I'm and instrument student, and generally there are three things where we don't go:

1. Known icing
2. Major snow storms
3. Horrible wind gust of 25+ knots
Click to expand...

Don't forget to avoid Thunderstorms too. Might not be something to worry about currently, but they're just around the corner. This also depends on where you live and fly.

Another is ceiling and visibility. Even in the IFR system, ceiling and visibility can be below minimums.
 
My instrument instructor took me up in ice one time. It was a very valuable experience. Good thing the statue of limitations has run out on it, though.

He had come back from a trip that morning in a FIKI Navajo, so he knew that the tops were low and it was sunny above. The bases were maybe 1000' AGL and it was above freezing below. So he got us a block of airspace from Approach and we iced the airplane a bit, flew up into the sunlight to melt it off, then repeated, etc. for a while. Finally flew an approach back into our home airport. We landed with maybe 1/4" on the airframe and a clear windshield.

It was one of the most valuable instructional flights I've had. Had I first encountered ice alone, after getting my rating, I would have been terrified. Not that I take ice for granted, far from it, but I learned that day that the airplane doesn't automatically fall out of the sky when it picks up a little rime.
 
Basically if we are not forced to be in clouds and the winds are not outrageous (high 20 kts +), we fly. If we can go up with VFR and we can safely land the airplane with the winds, there usually is no issue. If the winds are too strong for me to land safely, he will just take the controls and do it. Ive flown in some pretty damn windy days, but I actually enjoy it. It makes the 5kt days even better.
 
Not sure exactly what his philosophy or policy is however I did my first solo xc airplane 22G28 to a crosswind airport... first helo solo was 18G22 however that was more or less down the pipe :)
 
So long as there was room under the clouds, and the gust factors were not offensive (~8-10kts gust factor on 15-20kts is too much) or too cross-windy, (20kts, no problem, directly across the runway, no way!), we went.

I tried to chicken out when there were some radar returns, and ended up doing hood time in some of the smoothest air I've ever encountered in Texas below 4k' during the day. There were some intense showers, but they missed us by a wide margin.
 
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