What is the right airplane for mission?

I need to see a nice one. I've looked at several 310's that were just not kept the way I would keep one and it turned me off. As much of a turbo lover as I am, I wonder if you can get a turbo 520 down to 12ish per side like you can the NA?

A top condition 310 is rare as hens teeth. You can get them to 12 a side if you are willing to give up a bit of speed. Personally I'd rather turbo normalize IO engines than get TSIO engines to get the extra point of compression, but it would be more expensive to set up. If one would keep the plane long term and fly a lot, it would pay off though.
 
The 310 is fun to fly and a nice family plane, at least the R models are. I don't have experience with the earlier ones. If I needed a turbocharged twin and had the budget for a 310T, then I have the budget for a baby Navajo with the 310hp engines. Not quite as much fun to fly though close, but better IFR platform, handles ice much better, and loads more room and hauling capability. It is better on short and rough strips and you can get a potty seat.

The N is more fun to fly than the R and a bit more efficient, but also a bit smaller.

I've got a good sum of 310 and Navajo time, both in short Navajos and Chieftains, and for 310s in N and (T)Rs. I think your assessment on a T310R vs a baby Navajo is pretty accurate. That said, I don't know anyone who's contemplated a Navajo vs. a T310R. The Twin Cessnas tend to be more popular with owner pilots, and the Navajo less so.
 
Fair enough, but I have long legs and am not all that enamored with sitting shoulder to shoulder. YMMV. I would consider a Mooney if I was flying flat lands mostly alone. I am probably spoiled as most of my traveling has been in a Bo or larger.

As for maintenance, most things are harder on a Mooney than other aircraft because access is tighter. Harder equals more labor. How this varies from model to model a bit, but swapping mags, vacuum pumps, to name a few things, are less fun in a Mooney.

I've got a 35" inseam (measured for cycling measurements, typically wear 34" long pants) and think the Mooney is perfect for long-legged folks. Al Mooney was ~6'4" with long legs and designed the cockpit to accommodate him, hence the resulting "sports car" seating position with long leg wells vs. a truck or SUV seating position found in Cessnas or Bonanzas. The Mooney is also an inch wider than a Bonanza on the inside.

I've swapped my dual mag, vacuum pump, changed cylinders, etc. and it really any more trouble than any other IO-360 installation. The siamese dual mag is a PITA to R&R, but I believe it is also a PITA on a C177RG for comparison. I think the biggest potential wart regarding Mooney maintenance is the potential of leaky fuel tanks and the need to reseal them. That is a major PITA and I (happily) wrote a check for the best expert to do that job on my plane, and it was a big expense. The rest of the airframe is quite rugged and the wear items are easy enough to change.
 
The N is more fun to fly than the R and a bit more efficient, but also a bit smaller.

I've got a good sum of 310 and Navajo time, both in short Navajos and Chieftains, and for 310s in N and (T)Rs. I think your assessment on a T310R vs a baby Navajo is pretty accurate. That said, I don't know anyone who's contemplated a Navajo vs. a T310R. The Twin Cessnas tend to be more popular with owner pilots, and the Navajo less so.

Our experiences are probably pretty similar. The Navajo is an out-of-the-box concept. I did it when starting a charter operation about 25 years ago. I was told to get a 310 or 58 Baron. I was roundly considered to be an idiot for getting a baby Navajo. In practice the baby Navajo was only slightly more expensive than the NA versions of the aforementioned. I have flown the T310R, but have not had to supervise the maintenance. Based on my experience with the 310R and the Navajo C, I doubt there is significant operating expense difference.

If one goes through the two airplanes and compares system by system, the 310 is at least as complicated overall than the Navajo which is a pretty simple airplane, albeit big. Big can make it easier to work on. The Navajo was also warmer in the cabin on those winter night flights up near the Canadian border. At 65%, my baby Joe burned 32 gph and gave 180-185 KTAS depending on weight.

People don't think about a "Joe" because it is big. I went straight from a 310 into a Navajo and was intimidated for a week or so until it dawned on me that the Navajo was easier to fly and more forgiving. It really flies like an overgrown Cherokee, except better. The only downside I can see to a Navajo is that it takes more hangar space. Of course, a C-310R will not fit in most T hangars either.
 
Fair enough, but I have long legs and am not all that enamored with sitting shoulder to shoulder.


Like Scott said, the mooney is actually as wide or wider than some planes at the shoulders. It just begins to taper in sooner towards the roof so it can make you feel like it's tighter than it is.
 
Like Scott said, the mooney is actually as wide or wider than some planes at the shoulders. It just begins to taper in sooner towards the roof so it can make you feel like it's tighter than it is.

I have heard that Mooneys are fairly wide at the elbows, but as you say, it is how it feels, which is subjective.
 
I have heard that Mooneys are fairly wide at the elbows, but as you say, it is how it feels, which is subjective.

I agree. My friend flew me around one evening in his V tail bonanza, and it felt much more "open"
 
How about a Socata TB20 or Commander 114? I am surprised nobody brought these two models up. Very roomy and comfortable with two doors and decent speed.
 
I just noticed your reply, I'd forgotten about this thread a bit.

Our experiences are probably pretty similar. The Navajo is an out-of-the-box concept. I did it when starting a charter operation about 25 years ago. I was told to get a 310 or 58 Baron. I was roundly considered to be an idiot for getting a baby Navajo. In practice the baby Navajo was only slightly more expensive than the NA versions of the aforementioned. I have flown the T310R, but have not had to supervise the maintenance. Based on my experience with the 310R and the Navajo C, I doubt there is significant operating expense difference.

I think you're probably right. It's also interesting how, 25 years later, the baby Navajo is still somewhat out of the box when compared to a 310 or 58 Baron.

It was also out of the box a couple years ago when we put the Chieftain on 135. The outfit we were working with didn't see why anyone would want it over the turboprops. Then the chief pilot flew in the thing for the first time (in back) and said "Wow, this is really a nice plane." Our customers thought so, too.

If one goes through the two airplanes and compares system by system, the 310 is at least as complicated overall than the Navajo which is a pretty simple airplane, albeit big. Big can make it easier to work on. The Navajo was also warmer in the cabin on those winter night flights up near the Canadian border. At 65%, my baby Joe burned 32 gph and gave 180-185 KTAS depending on weight.

I'm guessing those 310s were pre-C&D heaters. The 310N I fly will roast you out. :)

You also got a bit better on economy, but you probably ran our engines a bit leaner. We did 180 on 36 GPH as the owner, knowing I was a LOP fan, said "If you want to fly LOP in a Navajo go spend $100,000 on two new engines like I did and do it." His plane, his rules, no problem. The Chieftain was more like 45 GPH, but we did 190 in it. The owners were in a hurry. I always wished that I'd had an engine monitor to see what they could do LOP, I figured that the fuel burn would be significantly better.

People don't think about a "Joe" because it is big. I went straight from a 310 into a Navajo and was intimidated for a week or so until it dawned on me that the Navajo was easier to fly and more forgiving. It really flies like an overgrown Cherokee, except better. The only downside I can see to a Navajo is that it takes more hangar space. Of course, a C-310R will not fit in most T hangars either.

I had a similar experience. Somewhere around 1200 total time with 600 or so in my Aztec and 200 or so in the 310 was when I started flying the baby 'jo because I needed an 8-seater. After a minimal 1.3 hour checkout involving 2 landings and one ILS, I then flew it up to a gravel strip in the middle of nowhere Canada with 8 people and luggage on a day that involved three actual approaches and a lot of bad weather. The prospect felt intimidating until I got in it and realized that it was quite an easy plane to fly. I later got into the Chieftain, which was also a great airplane, but truthfully I liked the baby 'jo better and have a soft spot for that plane. Among other things, it was significantly quieter up front since the props were further forward from the cockpit. But I also need a crew door for my mission.

Your point about the hangar is also true, and also one of the reasons why I feel like many people overlook the pre-R 310s without good cause. The hunchback cabin is nice in the Q and R, but our N is sportier (especially with 520s), more efficient, and fits into a standard hangar with ease. Plus the N is sportier than the R, and I think handles short runways better. I also think many people that are looking cabin class decide on the 340, 414, or 421 because of the extra speed and pressurization.
 
I just noticed your reply, I'd forgotten about this thread a bit.


I'm guessing those 310s were pre-C&D heaters. The 310N I fly will roast you out. :)

Southwind. Froze me in Minnesota winters.

>>You also got a bit better on economy, but you probably ran our engines a bit leaner. We did 180 on 36 GPH as the owner, knowing I was a LOP fan, said "If you want to fly LOP in a Navajo go spend $100,000 on two new engines like I did and do it." His plane, his rules, no problem. The Chieftain was more like 45 GPH, but we did 190 in it. The owners were in a hurry. I always wished that I'd had an engine monitor to see what they could do LOP, I figured that the fuel burn would be significantly better.<<

I don't think we were running LOP. With just a TIT gauge, who knows. It was 30" and 2200 rpm, IIRC. CHT's range 375-425. We put a pair of factory overhauled engines on her when we got here, and ran them out in less than three years. Pretty much only put gas and oil in them and routine stuff. No turbo issues at all. As I said, we got 180 KTAS at gross and it crept up to 185 when light. I just smile when owners get overwrought about their CHT's being up to 380 or some such.

I agree with you on the baby Joe v. the Chieftain. The baby Joe flies nicer, is warmer in the winter, and as you said, quieter. The only part of the baby Joe that I don't like is the handling near the aft CG. However, it is easy to keep the CG in the forward half of the envelope.

The 310R was a gas to fly. I spent a year hauling cancelled checks at night. We were in a hurry and always ran 25 squared, honking along over the praires of Minnesota, SD, IA, and NE. You would really keep your speed up because the speeds on the landing lights, gear, and flaps were so high. Sometimes got currency in one night.
 
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I would say away from the Lance. Cost of a twin to operate with all the negatives of a single. Worst of both worlds. I honestly can't figure out how Piper sold any. Given the low sales numbers, I think most of the market agreed.
Huh? I've owned two Lances. 150 knots on 14.8 gph is not the operating cost of a any 6 seat twin I'm aware of. Maintenance is stone simple, insurance is cheap. I think they're great bang for the buck.
 
A J or K Mooney would perfectly suit your stated mission and do it the most economically (esp. operating cost!) unless you consider an experimental bird. There are plenty of nice ones on the market at $90k or below. Come on over to Mooneyspace.com and you'll find a very nice J and a K listed for sale currently around that price.
I love the J. The K ... not so much. The engine/turbo pairing in the 231 is not a great combination. The 252 is much better, but that would be hard to find for the stated budget.
 
Southwind. Froze me in Minnesota winters.

One step below Janitrol even. The C&D has been a huge improvement in these planes. I've never been cold in the 310 with the C&D heater.

Edit: Except when it broke.

I don't think we were running LOP. With just a TIT gauge, who knows. It was 30" and 2200 rpm, IIRC. CHT's range 375-425. We put a pair of factory overhauled engines on her when we got here, and ran them out in less than three years. Pretty much only put gas and oil in them and routine stuff. No turbo issues at all. As I said, we got 180 KTAS at gross and it crept up to 185 when light. I just smile when owners get overwrought about their CHT's being up to 380 or some such.
At that power setting and fuel burn you'd still be ROP. You did the right thing with the factory overhauled engines, and that's why you had such good service. As for the 380 or above, it depends. The Navajo cylinders are probably the strongest out there, and factory Lycomings will typically make it to TBO without issue, especially if run at 65% power in cruise. Continentals are another story, as you probably also know from flying 310s.

I agree with you on the baby Joe v. the Chieftain. The baby Joe flies nicer, is warmer in the winter, and as you said, quieter. The only part of the baby Joe that I don't like is the handling near the aft CG. However, it is easy to keep the CG in the forward half of the envelope.
Yeah, I had the baby 'jo near aft CG regularly and it did have a noticeable difference in handling. Still very stable and manageable, though. Main thing I noted was that it felt a lot happier coming in a bit fast at that point.

I always thought that the baby 'jo with a Panther conversion and intercoolers would make a nice family plane, other than the lack of pressurization.

The 310R was a gas to fly. I spent a year hauling cancelled checks at night. We were in a hurry and always ran 25 squared, honking along over the praires of Minnesota, SD, IA, and NE. You would really keep your speed up because the speeds on the landing lights, gear, and flaps were so high. Sometimes got currency in one night.
The N model I fly has IO-520-Es in it, 300 HP each. I'm also in a hurry most of the time and fly 2500 RPM/WOT. Gives me about 185-187 KTAS @ 25-27 GPH LOP. Goes down some with altitude, but it's a lot of fun. The R models got a lot of improvements in terms of gear and flap speed. On the N, it's 160 MPH for gear and flaps (although first 15 degrees can be put in from 180 MPH). The plane is slippery enough that it requires good descent planning. Similarly, when I went to the Chieftain from the baby 'jo, I appreciated the increased gear speeds. I flew a 310A a couple weeks ago, and its gear/flap speed was 130 MPH, but interestingly I didn't find it hard to get slowed up. Although one of my landings was with a feathered right engine.
 
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Huh? I've owned two Lances. 150 knots on 14.8 gph is not the operating cost of a any 6 seat twin I'm aware of. Maintenance is stone simple, insurance is cheap. I think they're great bang for the buck.
Maintenance is not bad....until you have to deal with the overhaul. Then you might as well own a twin. For the current price of a TIO-540 overhaul, you could do two IO-470s.....and a Baron or 310 go a heck of a lot faster. But I do agree, a Lance does have decent utility.
 
Huh? I've owned two Lances. 150 knots on 14.8 gph is not the operating cost of a any 6 seat twin I'm aware of. Maintenance is stone simple, insurance is cheap. I think they're great bang for the buck.

To add to this. How can anyone question the success of the overall Cherokee Six design, which is really what we are talking about. Yes, the T-tail Lance was a sales disappointment, and many people do not care for them, but the basic line was a massive success. If you take the original Cherokee 6 260, Cherokee 300, Lance, Lance II, Saratoga, Saratoga SP, Saratoga Turbo, Saratoga TC, Saratoga HC, etc that basic hull was a massive success and there are thousands of them out there and over 7800 of the various models made. For GA that is a lot of planes.

The Saratoga SP I have flown in burns about 15 GPH at 158 knots.
 
>>You did the right thing with the factory overhauled engines, and that's why you had such good service. As for the 380 or above, it depends. The Navajo cylinders are probably the strongest out there, and factory Lycomings will typically make it to TBO without issue, especially if run at 65% power in cruise. Continentals are another story, as you probably also know from flying 310s.<<

We pretty much had to go with exchange engines. When you are flying the aircraft about 700 hours a year, down time is an issue. If it hadn't been on 135, I would have run those engines several hundred more hours.

Flying freight in the 310R's we were cracking cylinders all the time. I had a complete cylinder head/barrel separation on #6 one night. That got better when the company finally wised up and quit using T.W. Smith engines with chromed cylinders and went with TCM remans.

>>I always thought that the baby 'jo with a Panther conversion and intercoolers would make a nice family plane, other than the lack of pressurization.<<

Ever flown the Mojave? I haven't but would like to.
 
We pretty much had to go with exchange engines. When you are flying the aircraft about 700 hours a year, down time is an issue. If it hadn't been on 135, I would have run those engines several hundred more hours.

Flying freight in the 310R's we were cracking cylinders all the time. I had a complete cylinder head/barrel separation on #6 one night. That got better when the company finally wised up and quit using T.W. Smith engines with chromed cylinders and went with TCM remans.

That sounds about right. On the 310 the previous engines were TCM remans and made it to 400 past TBO just fine. The previous owner was replacing cylinders regularly until he started paying more attention to CHTs (no surprise on 520s), but the core engines were reliable. He never had a cracked cylinder on the plane to my knowledge, but his RAM T310R (which replaced this 310) had 10 cracked cylinders at 500 hours. Those were ECI cylinders covered by the impending NPRM.

Ever flown the Mojave? I haven't but would like to.

I haven't, but would also like to. I'd also like to fly the P-Navajo. I've got about 25 hours in a Cheyenne II, and that was a very nice plane to fly. It would be high on my list if I was considering a personal turboprop. I had one day when I started in the Aztec, flew the Navajo, and then hopped in the Cheyenne. From the Navajo to the Cheyenne, once you got the engines started, they were about the same. Just don't pull the mixtures back for cruise. :eek:
 
Amazing! We seem to have lived parallel lives. I have about 30 hours in a Cheyenne II. I liked it as well, though was just pretty jazzed to be playing with a turboprop. If you tell me you have a bunch of time in a C-90A it will be really spooky.
 
I've never flown a King Air of any sort, but Dave says we'll have to fix that and he's the man who can make it happen. :)

Other than the Cheyenne, all I have for turbine time is in the Commander 690A/B. I never much liked them and found the Cheyenne to be a much nicer plane.

We've definitely had a lot of parallel experiences!
 
When your kids outgrow the Mooney and you find the useful load lacking, maybe you could trade up to a B-58 Baron or maybe a PA-32 Cherokee Six for a cheaper, less sexy option.

This is my plan. When my kids get a little bigger, I will begrudgingly get rid of the mooney and look for a Lance or a Cherokee 6 or something in that line.
 
Interested in purchasing a good single engine cross country airplane. I am looking for something fast and economical. Need a 4 place. Most of my trips will be 800 to 1000 miles round trip with a couple each year that are 2,000 miles round trip. Leaning towards a Mooney 201J or 231K. Any other airplanes I should consider? Trying to keep it under $90k.

The *Cardinal Cruiser* (177RG) This is a turbo Cessna Cardinal RG. It claims to do 177 knots in the high teens properly leaned.
 
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