What is the correct Pattern Altitude?

[Sendero]

Now, I'm just confused.

The Aeronautical Charting Forum has an open Recommendation Document (13-01-262) titled "Airport Facility Directory (AFD) Depiction of Traffic Pattern Altitudes" which I have posted before in this thread. But it's the last entry that is relevant:

Valerie Watson, AJV-344, briefed the previous ACF consensus that ALL traffic pattern altitudes, whether considered “standard” or “recommended”, should be both captured in the NASR database and published in the AFDs. Steve risbon, AJV-211, briefed that NFDC has not yet begun the process of populating all traffic pattern altitudes in NASR. Steve will follow up and attempt to expedite the project.

They're supposed to meet twice per year, that meant meeting 15-01 should have happened. So I hunted up the meeting notes:

Valerie Watson, AJV-553, reviewed the issue. Mike Wallin, AJV-5331, stated that NFDC is still working this issue. Valerie asked Mike if there is a new policy to collect all Traffic Pattern Altitude (TPA) data, whether standard or not, and populate the information in NASR. Mike was not sure if that policy was in place and committed to looking into the issue further and reporting at the next ACF.

Acronym decipher: NFDC is National Flight Data Center and NASR is National Airspace System Resources. NASR is supposed to be a repository of information kept by the FAA so I wanted to test a theory after reading the two entries above. I found an airport in Alabama that had a 'non-standard' pattern altitude and looked it up a few different places to see what information was available. For comparison I threw KDCU in there too:

KEDN - NASR, AirNav, SkyVector

KDCU - NASR, AirNav, SkyVector

Pattern Altitude for EDN is 800' AGL (1161' MSL). AirNav, SkyVector and the A/FD all list TPA at 1161' MSL for EDN, but NASR lists nothing regarding pattern altitudes. I assume all three flight software's (AOPA FlyQ Pocket, Garmin Pilot, ForeFlight) have the same information for EDN. KDCU has no published TPA in NASR, AirNav, SkyVector, or the A/FD. It does however have the 'unofficial' TPA at 800' AGL in the three flight software's.

So if the NASR does have TPA information in it, but you can't see it in the web interface then why isn't DCU's TPA in the A/FD? But if NASR doesn't have TPA information in it or not every airport is updated, where are the flight softwares pulling their information? What information source is FAA Form 7480-1 updating?

Yes, I'm trying to make sense of a government entity.

 

[James331]

Are you effing kidding me?

I'd cancel that DPEs' check the second after I landed.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'd cancel that DPEs' check the second after I landed.

Make sure you call your attorney right after you do that -- you're going to need one. And make sure that attorney handles both criminal and aviation law, because the FAA will also be involved.

 

[Henning]

Make sure you call your attorney right after you do that -- you're going to need one. And make sure that attorney handles both criminal and aviation law, because the FAA will also be involved.

FAA will not get in the middle of business matters as policy from what I understand from talking to the FSDO. I doubt an FAA inspector would bust for that ride, especially on a diversion. FAA inspectors seem to want to educate more than punish.

 

[James331]

Make sure you call your attorney right after you do that -- you're going to need one. And make sure that attorney handles both criminal and aviation law, because the FAA will also be involved.

Ba ha ha ha

Like Ron said

Also I hope he has his ducks I order as I'd go after him for my expenses on that ride too.

As well as talk to his FSDO, as the CFI.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Make sure you call your attorney right after you do that -- you're going to need one. And make sure that attorney handles both criminal and aviation law, because the FAA will also be involved.

 

[SkyDog58]

As to the examiner failing the examinee because of the pattern altitude error, I only make this one point.

There is no FAR that states that you must carry the AFD with you. You must only familiarize yourself and plan for the intended flight. You cannot plan for every contingency that could pop up along the way. You never know when you might divert, so must you know the PA of every possible diversion airport along the route of your flight? That is an unrealistic expectation. To me, you are only responsible for the information presented on the sectional if you are asked to divert.

 

[MAKG1]

There is no FAR requiring charts either, with a couple of very specific exceptions. Getting diverted under class B isn't fun, but I doubt such an excuse would work there either.

 

[chartbundle]

So if the NASR does have TPA information in it, but you can't see it in the web interface then why isn't DCU's TPA in the A/FD? But if NASR doesn't have TPA information in it or not every airport is updated, where are the flight softwares pulling their information? What information source is FAA Form 7480-1 updating?

As far as I can tell there is no listed TPA for KDCU in the NASR 56 day file I get.
Here's the raw data: 01W1990 ATLANTA

Variation, Year of Variation, TPA, Sectional where airport is listed. Obviously the TPA bit appears to be blank.

 

[James331]

Normally for personal stuff I never fly with a AFD, unless I'm cross country or IFR or something I don't often bring my ipad.

Just take whatever is on your chart, add 1k to the AGL and that's good, everything you need to know for most flights is all found on a sectional.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Amazing what this simple question has generated. Also scary to think that many are perplexed by it. Then add in that many think radios are for sissys. Real scary.

 

[Sendero]

A local Cessna 172 at 1400 MSL and a transient Mooney at 1600 MSL NORDO in the pattern doesn't sound enough big sky, little airplane for my taste. Yes, I understand piece of paper isn't going create a force field and prevent bending an airplane. I'm going to at least leg this one out because it is a safety issue.

As far as I can tell there is no listed TPA for KDCU in the NASR 56 day file I get.
Here's the raw data: 01W1990 ATLANTA

Variation, Year of Variation, TPA, Sectional where airport is listed. Obviously the TPA bit appears to be blank.

Chartbundle; thanks for looking this up for me. While it helps answer one question, it creates a few more. I honestly didn't think I had access to the NASR DB, but it seems I can download all 85 MB of it. Is there a program that displays it nicely or will I have to suffer through TXT files in Notepad++?

 

[deaston]

This has confused me ever since I started training 3 years ago. I was taught to use the AF/D and if not in there, use 1000' AGL. Then I noticed the discrepancy in the AOPA airport documents that tended to list 800' AGL for airports in my area, but the AF/D had nothing. I asked my CFI - got a shrug of the shoulders. I contacted AOPA and they get the info from airport managers. I told them I didn't think that was right way to handle, but what do I know... I'm just a student.

After checkride, started noticing the same issue in Foreflight. I finally contacted their support recently and was told they pull it from AOPA database if not in the AF/D. Said it is pilot's discretion to pick between 600'-1500' AGL as indicated in AIM 4-3-3 (seems like an odd interpretation) - he happens to like 800'.

I'm sticking with AF/D or 1000' AGL until I hear a better explanation. That Chart Forum seems definitive although I don't get why it has just been left hanging.

 

[yetti]

If you are doing an overhead maneuver you would start at 2092 feet

 

[CharlieTango]

Our field has a TPA or 8,007' or 872 AGL.

Often arriving traffic's 1st call is that they are downwind for 27 at 14,000' and they fly right traffic from there even if there is traffic flying left traffic for 09 to land into the wind.

This is a relatively new 'approach' and it bothers me to often have heavier/faster traffic above me and even the opposite direction. The most common offender are the Q400s that Horizon Air flies into here, they never seem to abort their conflicting approaches.

The old airport manager got fired for political reasons and the new management are town employees without aviation backgrounds otherwise I would talk to them about these new procedures.

What would you do if you entered the pattern at 8,000' and were flying left traffic for 09 and then 2 other aircraft called they were in a conflicting or same pattern but a mile+ above you?

 

[JimNtexas]

Foreflight has it at 1390.

I always look at the Foreflight AF/D page for traffic pattern info. I'm not seeing a KDCU traffic pattern altitude listed there.

Is there somewhere else on Foreflight that lists a traffic pattern altitude, or am I just missing something obvious?

 

[woodchucker]

I'd cancel that DPEs' check the second after I landed.

They take checks? Mine was cash only, before the flight.

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A separate concern: let's say you are using the A/FD listed TPA for my home airport, which is 5034 (800 AGL). Do you fly it at exactly 5034? Or round down to 5000?

I fly it at 5100, because that is what two different instructors told me (from two separate companies).

That's why you gotta stay on the radios in the pattern and keep your head on a swivel for those aircraft that don't have radios.

 

[JimNtexas]

They take checks? Mine was cash only, before the flight.

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A separate concern: let's say you are using the A/FD listed TPA for my home airport, which is 5034 (800 AGL). Do you fly it at exactly 5034? Or round down to 5000?

I fly it at 5100, because that is what two different instructors told me (from two separate companies).

That's why you gotta stay on the radios in the pattern and keep your head on a swivel for those aircraft that don't have radios.

I round up if I'm flying a high wing, and round down if in a low wing.

 

[Dr. O]

Well, what I would do in response is simply re-announce that I am (wherever I am) for a left hand pattern pattern at xxxx feet .
It is an uncontrolled field and planes landing behind me can do any durn thing they wish.

The reality is my pattern altitude is what I decide it is. Unless the inspector is on the ramp with a laser gun that is the end of it. Obviously I try not to do anything too weird and I do keep the Mk-I optical device on a swivel. This has worked for me for many decades, so I am reluctant to change (and probably untrainable to boot)

btw, that is some impressive terrain around KMMH

 

[poadeleted20]

I contacted AOPA and they get the info from airport managers.

Whoever told you that is wrong. They send a form to the airport, and publish whatever comes back without any effort to determine the authority of whoever sent it. And that's why it's a problem.

After checkride, started noticing the same issue in Foreflight. I finally contacted their support recently and was told they pull it from AOPA database if not in the AF/D. Said it is pilot's discretion to pick between 600'-1500' AGL as indicated in AIM 4-3-3 (seems like an odd interpretation) - he happens to like 800'.

Legally, that's true, unless something bad happens and the FAA decides you were reckless to ignore the AIM recommendation for 1000 AGL in the absence of any official information to the contrary.

I'm sticking with AF/D or 1000' AGL until I hear a better explanation.

Good choice.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, what I would do in response is simply re-announce that I am (wherever I am) for a left hand pattern pattern at xxxx feet .

And the pilot in the no-radio plane sharing the pattern with you is supposed to hear that how?

It is an uncontrolled field and planes landing behind me can do any durn thing they wish.

Well, they certainly can, but the FAA may find fault with their actions if something bad happens as a result of not following FAA guidance.

The reality is my pattern altitude is what I decide it is. Unless the inspector is on the ramp with a laser gun that is the end of it. Obviously I try not to do anything too weird and I do keep the Mk-I optical device on a swivel. This has worked for me for many decades, so I am reluctant to change (and probably untrainable to boot)

I believe that.

 

[woodchucker]

I round up if I'm flying a high wing, and round down if in a low wing.

Thanks Jim! That is good advice. One of those little tidbits I've never thought of, since I've only flown high wings.