What is happening to us?

[JB1842]

I think recreational appeal is the primary way to go after GA if you want an increase in pilots. Sell GA by selling aerobatics, seaplanes, and meetups at the airport and places within an hour or two of the home. Sell it by getting golfers to try new courses that they would ignore for a 4-hour drive. Traveling by air to a vacation destination is nice and all, but most people I know don't take more than one or two long distance runs per year and GA doesn't make that too much better from a logistics standpoint.

If you don't sell the "fun" of GA like boating/sports/etc do, it's a lost cause.

It's hard to compete with boating. How many youtube videos are out there of planes tied up to each other with women in bikinis (or less) taking body shots off each other? Sports you have something to cheer for. Not many people cheer for a perfect 3 point landing, minus the crowd at Oshkosh.

 

[steingar]

Traveling by air to a vacation destination is nice and all, but most people I know don't take more than one or two long distance runs per year and GA doesn't make that too much better from a logistics standpoint.

If you don't sell the "fun" of GA like boating/sports/etc do, it's a lost cause.

The funny thing is I started taking trips on the motorcycle instead of the airplane thinking about dispatch ability and costs. I won't argue dispatchablity, VFR GA sucks. You need a flexible schedule to travel VFR GA, slightly less to travel IFR.

I will argue costs. The motorcycle was only marginally cheaper than the aircraft, despite the difference in fuels. The bike took a couple days, instead of a few hours. It required extra meals on the road, and an extra night's stay.

If I want to see the scenery when I go (or there's no where good to land) I'll happily take the bike. But I certainly won't do it to save money. Travel costs money, there is no way around it.

 

[FlyingIsGood]

Argh. Marketing ANYTHING in the internet age is just so freaking hard. In the old days, we could run an ad in the local paper and be certain of hitting all of the literate people (really, the only people you wanted to hit) in the market.

Now? Marketing is like peeing in the ocean... 90% of any effort is utterly unseen and wasted.

You're absolutely right that Web marketing is a beast that's hard to nail down, but I believe that marketing aviation, especially targeting locally, is doable. Where it will fall short is if the product (aviation) being marketed fails to respond in a way that technology demands.

This is the internet age, where the population uses Google/Bing/Yahoo! to find answers. If those answers aren't available, then there's no sale. The majority of prospective customers won't make an actual phone call until the hook has already been set. If the only bait available is a tired old minnow, then only the most desperate will bite it.

I've been compiling a list of airports/flight schools/maintenance shops/etc. to get an idea of what's available in the Houston area... and it's pathetic. It's not that there's not a lot available, it's that the only way to find a lot of it is to drive up to the airport and look at the signs on the hangars. I've physically visited eight airports in the area this year (thus far) to get an idea of what businesses are there, and what the overall feel is like. FEW of those businesses are available online other than perhaps a corporate page and (maybe) a phone number - when modern society expects much more.

I'm certain if I did the same for boats, I'd find more information than I would ever need - with reams of text, explanations, sales pitches, etc. Yeah, boating is way more accessible and utilized to the average Joe, but that doesn't stop the boating community from self-marketing themselves enough to make it hard to miss.

Flight schools are the only ones doing any of the pitching around here, and a lot of that information is lacking, unorganized, and confusing to the uninformed.

The community (at least around here) seems to be shooting itself in the foot by not realizing that there is a major opportunity passing right by. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but (other than low oil prices right now) Houston is booming and the economy around here is fairly good. Where is aviation in all of that??? It's being talked about on this forum, or in a hangar at the back of an airport no one knows exists. Heck, I can show up at an airport and not even know where to start.

I do marketing for a living, and just don't understand why an industry with so much potential seemingly tries to be some obscure, elite club with locked front doors.

Maybe I'm ranting again, but I seriously believe that a lot more can be done locally to spur growth in aviation.

 

[FlyingIsGood]

I think recreational appeal is the primary way to go after GA if you want an increase in pilots. Sell GA by selling aerobatics, seaplanes, and meetups at the airport and places within an hour or two of the home. Sell it by getting golfers to try new courses that they would ignore for a 4-hour drive. Traveling by air to a vacation destination is nice and all, but most people I know don't take more than one or two long distance runs per year and GA doesn't make that too much better from a logistics standpoint.

If you don't sell the "fun" of GA like boating/sports/etc do, it's a lost cause.

I agree with this as well. The utility of GA is one thing, but there's also the fun that flying entails (even if it's only for the pilot).

Around here, another huge selling point would be the relaxation relative to sitting in traffic. Flying over a bunch of cars sitting bumper-to-bumper on the freeway below, while you have no stop signs, red lights, traffic jams to deal with takes me to another place just imagining it. It's disconnecting from the the surface and all the crap that beats one down all week. Plus, you're controlling an aircraft - something fantasized about for millennia. As a human, you've grown wings and now soar with the eagles. There's personal pride in such a feat. Once back down on the ground, even though you understand that you have to rejoin the rat race for another round, you've got a big, ****-eating grin on your face because you're the king/queen/whatever of the world at the moment.

 

[bnt83]

Even my dentist says flying is too expensive. Its like we are living in a global wealth correction.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I agree with this as well. The utility of GA is one thing, but there's also the fun that flying entails (even if it's only for the pilot).

Around here, another huge selling point would be the relaxation relative to sitting in traffic. Flying over a bunch of cars sitting bumper-to-bumper on the freeway below, while you have no stop signs, red lights, traffic jams to deal with takes me to another place just imagining it. It's disconnecting from the the surface and all the crap that beats one down all week. Plus, you're controlling an aircraft - something fantasized about for millennia. As a human, you've grown wings and now soar with the eagles. There's personal pride in such a feat. Once back down on the ground, even though you understand that you have to rejoin the rat race for another round, you've got a big, ****-eating grin on your face because you're the king/queen/whatever of the world at the moment.

EXACTLY!

Where is Cirrus/Cessna/Piper/Beech/AOPA/EAA in this ad campaign??:

Show some shmuck sitting in Houston traffic with his family, horns blaring, trying to get out of town for a 3-day weekend in Port Aransas.

Jump cut to the guy getting into his SR-22 with his kids, and flying straight to the island.

Jump back to the shmuck sitting in a 2-hour line to get on the ferry.

Jump back to the Cirrus driver getting in our Lexus courtesy car, and cruising on the beach.

Show the shmuck arriving at 10 PM, frazzled and worn out from the trip. Cut to the Cirrus driver with his feet up on the beach, drink in hand, where he's been for 5 hours.

I would do it myself, if I had 2000 (rather than 23) rooms.

This is a campaign that could go a long ways toward converting all the people I see sitting in their Escalades downnhere.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The funny thing is I started taking trips on the motorcycle instead of the airplane thinking about dispatch ability and costs. I won't argue dispatchablity, VFR GA sucks. You need a flexible schedule to travel VFR GA, slightly less to travel IFR.

I will argue costs. The motorcycle was only marginally cheaper than the aircraft, despite the difference in fuels. The bike took a couple days, instead of a few hours. It required extra meals on the road, and an extra night's stay.

If I want to see the scenery when I go (or there's no where good to land) I'll happily take the bike. But I certainly won't do it to save money. Travel costs money, there is no way around it.

I think the motorcycle crowd is a great example of showing how people can get into a hobby/sport for the sheer joy of riding around for recreation on the weekends. Just taking a ride for a few hours to the countryside with a few friends or in a large group. So why not GA? Show a bunch of Pipers/Vans/172s just flying low and slow following a local river and landing at a grass strip or small airport cafe. Show some flour bomb contests or basic aerobatics while everyone is at a barbeque. Show a clip of something like Gaston's for crying out loud! Videos of LSA amphibians running right beside jet skis on a lake (yes, there will be the horror of running an aircraft near another vessel).

IMO, the biggest thing most non-aviation people aren't aware of, is how many airports they have around them. No one in Tulsa thinks of any airport other than KTUL or KRVS. There are another half dozen airstrips in a 30nm radius of Tulsa with some paved and some not, but people don't know they exist because they aren't right off of a highway in view. Sell the fun of flying and just buzzing around. Leave the Cirrus advertisements for the doctors and business owners who can afford them or write them off as business assets.

 

[FlyingIsGood]

EXACTLY!

Where is Cirrus/Cessna/Piper/Beech/AOPA/EAA in this ad campaign??:

Show some shmuck sitting in Houston traffic with his family, horns blaring, trying to get out of town for a 3-day weekend in Port Aransas.

Jump cut to the guy getting into his SR-22 with his kids, and flying straight to the island.

Jump back to the shmuck sitting in a 2-hour line to get on the ferry.

Jump back to the Cirrus driver getting in our Lexus courtesy car, and cruising on the beach.

Show the shmuck arriving at 10 PM, frazzled and worn out from the trip. Cut to the Cirrus driver with his feet up on the beach, drink in hand, where he's been for 5 hours.

I would do it myself, if I had 2000 (rather than 23) rooms.

This is a campaign that could go a long ways toward converting all the people I see sitting in their Escalades downnhere.

I don't think any of the manufacturers will run a campaign like that because they want to sell new aircraft - which are outrageously expensive for weekend hops.

The community itself would need to fund a local ad campaign for those kinds of hops, and not in a Cirrus, but rather a used 172/Cherokee/etc - to show that it's doable without having crazy money.

Either way, it's a good thought. Driving for a weekend getaway, being in traffic, and limited to the confines of the concrete and asphalt versus taking flight and pointing the nose to whatever point on the horizon and heading that way, it's an easy choice - and one made up in the mind of someone before the thought disappears.

 

[Henning]

I completely disagree with that last statement.

GA has become like the religious orders of old, with the monks cloistered away in isolated fields, miles from civilization. Out of sight, out of mind.

As with any religion, GA is going to need good marketing to survive. Since we can't threaten eternal damnation if people don't adhere to our beliefs, we are gonna have to concentrate on the positive aspects of our religion. High speed travel to cool places that are not accessible by airlines is the best aspect of GA, IMHO.

Kids know about GA, kids interested find GA, those of their friends interested will find GA. Most of my friends have flown with me, they love having someone fly them somewhere, they have no interest in learning to fly, at least not enough to pursue it. The have other pursuits that they dedicate time and money to that vide them a greater benefit, typically involving getting laid, or getting paid.

Think for what value GA offers, we already get all the people we can expect. The utility and cost of GA still has to reduce dramatically. Basically you are competing for the high school hot rod dollar. It's the same kid, but what does flying get him? It sure isn't laid, he's way better off with hot car for that. No sanctioned racing or activities to speak of to compete, no real social integration at all except among the geriatric set. It really should be EAA pushing forward, but they pretty much are the top and bottom generation with the two between missing. Old people giving kids rides. There's 2 generations of demographic that is in their prime disposable income period that is being missed because of a lack of cleavage. I've been saying it for many years, in order to grow GA, you have to grow a social aspect, and in that you have to introduce competitions.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Jump cut to the guy getting into his SR-22 with his kids, and flying straight to the island..

Or more realistic, cut to the shmuck at the FBO, family in tow ready for their weekend, and he's looking at the line of thunderstorms between Houston and Port Aransas.............

Jump back to the Cirrus driver getting in our Lexus courtesy car, and cruising on the beach.

Or more realistic, the Cirrus shmuck landing at Podunk FBO, he and his family dripping wet in sweat from the non airconditioned flight, and the "courtesy car" is a 1982 Ford station wagon with 400,000 miles and smells like dog pee.......

Show the shmuck arriving at 10 PM, frazzled and worn out from the trip. Cut to the Cirrus driver with his feet up on the beach, drink in hand, where he's been for 5 hours.
.

Or more realistic, the family arrives in their own car after driving through the storms up north and gets their weekend at the beach, while the Cirrus shmuck has, once again cancelled his family weekend due to weather.

 

[paflyer]

https://screen.yahoo.com/debbie-downer-happiest-place-earth-000000872.html

Or more realistic, cut to the shmuck at the FBO, family in tow ready for their weekend, and he's looking at the line of thunderstorms between Houston and Port Aransas.............




Or more realistic, the Cirrus shmuck landing at Podunk FBO, he and his family dripping wet in sweat from the non airconditioned flight, and the "courtesy car" is a 1982 Ford station wagon with 400,000 miles and smells like dog pee.......



Or more realistic, the family arrives in their own car after driving through the storms up north and gets their weekend at the beach, while the Cirrus shmuck has, once again cancelled his family weekend due to weather.

 

[narchee]

Or more realistic, cut to the shmuck at the FBO, family in tow ready for their weekend, and he's looking at the line of thunderstorms between Houston and Port Aransas.............




Or more realistic, the Cirrus shmuck landing at Podunk FBO, he and his family dripping wet in sweat from the non airconditioned flight, and the "courtesy car" is a 1982 Ford station wagon with 400,000 miles and smells like dog pee.......



Or more realistic, the family arrives in their own car after driving through the storms up north and gets their weekend at the beach, while the Cirrus shmuck has, once again cancelled his family weekend due to weather.

So true for most of the bugmashers out there.

 

[Alexb2000]

Fly fishing by air:

I fly from Dallas to Broken Bow, OK to fly fish a few times a year. I have a friend that lives in Ft. Worth, so I fly over pick him up, fly up and land at either Broken Bow or Idabel. The "courtesy car is an old cop car or an old ford expedition depending on where. In Broken Bow you have to fax up your car insurance during the week, tell them when you're coming, how long, etc. Then it always seems to be out of gas, so fill it up twice. Long day by the time it's done.

Driving to fly fish is three hours each way. Long trip, but you're in a Denali so you could bring up to five friends if you wanted. It also costs 1/20th the money. You can get up look outside and decide to go, no car arrangement or any other planning necessary. You will also KNOW the A/C works.

Go fishing and put $600 in your pocket because you drove vs. flew. Do that a few times a month, it adds up. These are the reasons that all aircraft marketing attempts have failed.

 

[Jay Honeck]

So true for most of the bugmashers out there.

Well, if there's a line of thunderstorms, THEN you hop in the car and drive along with the rest of the mere mortals on the highway. You know, the way you would do it if you weren't a pilot?

It's just like planning a motorcycle trip. If the weather sucks, you take the car.

 

[hindsight2020]

So true for most of the bugmashers out there.

Maybe, maybe not.

6 years of sole ownership on and off. Three aircraft, 200+ sorties, 500ish hours (80% cross country to off-station arrivals). Zero mechanical cancellations. Zero big three accessory failures {mag, alt, panel GPS/COM}. Zero engine failures. ONE cancellation due to weather (widespread convective going into OKC in the summer 2012, departed the next day no issues). zero icing canx (southern US). What's that, 99.5%+ dispatch rate over 5 years? Arrival experience? Hertz or enterprise new rentals. Po-dunk arrivals? The people who we are there to see pick us up, otherwise we wouldn't be going to podunk in the first place. Holding the door open with her arm on the taxi out for the benefit of all occupants in the summer is also not beneath my Oklahoma wife. I guess I got lucky that way.

Look, here's the real crux. My family sincerely appreciates the distinction flying these distances makes versus driving or taking the airlines. Now, if your spousal unit considers the mechanics of unpressurized GA ground ops an indignity then sure, you belong in the ground and she in the cattle tube. If you bee bop a 500NM leg below 3k AGL with pedestrians on board then sure, you're an idiot.

I'm not going to proselytize to combative spouses. They belong in Keller/Mckinney/McSuburb screaming their lungs out at each other in perma-gridlock and complaining their 4G LTE isn't fast enough while daddy cries wacking it in the shower like a scene out of American Beauty because he can't afford the proverbial radish in his hot dog after the obscene mortgage and car payments get covered. For us, in our little corner of the GA world, with a little less pretenciousness in our life and a realistic outlook about this mode of transportation, single piston prop has proven a relatively dispatchable traveling option. To each their own.

Could we do a better job at tackling the costs? Absolutely. I think primary non-commercial holds the most potential for vintage GA if implemented as close as possible to a complete EAB operating/maintenance rules allowance.

 

[Henning]

Well, if there's a line of thunderstorms, THEN you hop in the car and drive along with the rest of the mere mortals on the highway. You know, the way you would do it if you weren't a pilot?

It's just like planning a motorcycle trip. If the weather sucks, you take the car.

Or fly under and around the cells in VMC down low where you can see where the weather is and isn't.

 

[Dav8or]

My proposal for a weekend getaway goes like this- "Can you guarantee me that I'll be at work Monday morning at 8am?" "Well... I..." "Then we're driving." I can not and will not risk a "I think we can squeak through." or, "Well, the forecast looks bad, but they're often wrong, so let's go for it." It's one thing if I end up an NTSB report, but I can't accept passengers being part of that report. I believe that gotta get there itis is very powerful.

In the 4 and half years I've owned my plane, it has failed me three times on trips mechanically. On a planned trip to Texas, the starter died the day of departure and I scrubbed the trip.

On a hamburger run to Red Bluff on a Sunday, the flow divider got semi clogged and caused a mysterious rough engine. Overnight motel, one way car rental, 3 hour return drive with the wife and $2500 a week later, the plane was home.

The third time was on a another hamburger run to Fresno and again no start. Was able to get it going again by cleaning a battery ground that if I showed any of you guys, you would say it looked fine. However, brightening it up with limited tools I had got it going. If I didn't carry tools and wasn't mechanically inclined, it would have been another motel stay and shop repair bills.

In addition, back when I was renting, I had three different planes leave me stranded and a forth that I was lucky enough to find an A&P willing to fix it right then. I can't in good conscience make that guarantee of 8am Monday morning.

I think focusing on fun and challenge rather than travel is best. Besides, after paying all the expenses of keeping and feeding an airplane, who has money left over for weekend getaways?

 

[Jay Honeck]

Or fly under and around the cells in VMC down low where you can see where the weather is and isn't.

And with ADS-B or XM on-board radar, it's that much easier and safer to circumnavigate the cells. In the summer, this is common, safe, and easy.

Not so much in the winter, when we get widespread crap. Or, at least, we have this year. But whatever, if you can't fly, you drive -- just like you would if you weren't a pilot. But most of the time, you can fly.

 

[Jay Honeck]

My proposal for a weekend getaway goes like this- "Can you guarantee me that I'll be at work Monday morning at 8am?" "Well... I..." "Then we're driving." I can not and will not risk a "I think we can squeak through." or, "Well, the forecast looks bad, but they're often wrong, so let's go for it." It's one thing if I end up an NTSB report, but I can't accept passengers being part of that report. I believe that gotta get there itis is very powerful.

In the 4 and half years I've owned my plane, it has failed me three times on trips mechanically. On a planned trip to Texas, the starter died the day of departure and I scrubbed the trip.

On a hamburger run to Red Bluff on a Sunday, the flow divider got semi clogged and caused a mysterious rough engine. Overnight motel, one way car rental, 3 hour return drive with the wife and $2500 a week later, the plane was home.

The third time was on a another hamburger run to Fresno and again no start. Was able to get it going again by cleaning a battery ground that if I showed any of you guys, you would say it looked fine. However, brightening it up with limited tools I had got it going. If I didn't carry tools and wasn't mechanically inclined, it would have been another motel stay and shop repair bills.

In addition, back when I was renting, I had three different planes leave me stranded and a forth that I was lucky enough to find an A&P willing to fix it right then. I can't in good conscience make that guarantee of 8am Monday morning.

I think focusing on fun and challenge rather than travel is best. Besides, after paying all the expenses of keeping and feeding an airplane, who has money left over for weekend getaways?

Maybe I've been incredibly lucky, but in three planes, since 1998, I've been stranded only once, and that was just for a day. Starter on the Warrior died in Wisconsin, and it was just above zero, so I wasn't about to hand-prop it.

The Pathfinder ALMOST stranded me once, when the oil cooler blew. Amazingly, I had a friend who was able to fly one down to Missouri from Iowa, same day, and the A&P on the field was able to swap it out in about 20 minutes. Miracles do happen.

Otherwise, mechanically, in 2500 hours and 17 years, that's IT. Piston engines are amazingly reliable.

Weatherwise, we've spent a few days in places we didn't expect to be. The best (or worst?) was going to Sun N Fun from Iowa. We ended up in Nashville for 3 days, under a cut-off low pressure that sat there and spun ice all over the area.

We had a GREAT time in Nashville. To this day, it is one of our very best vacations -- and we were supposed to be in Florida!

The key to using GA successfully is flexibility. If you absolutely, positively have to be somewhere at a specific time -- take an airline. If you want an adventure, fly yourself!

 

[Henning]

And with ADS-B or XM on-board radar, it's that much easier and safer to circumnavigate the cells. In the summer, this is common, safe, and easy.

Not so much in the winter, when we get widespread crap. Or, at least, we have this year. But whatever, if you can't fly, you drive -- just like you would if you weren't a pilot. But most of the time, you can fly.

Winter IMC is a whole different game with different equipment needs.

 

[denverpilot]

My proposal for a weekend getaway goes like this- "Can you guarantee me that I'll be at work Monday morning at 8am?" "Well... I..." "Then we're driving."

That one is sometimes easy to fix. Fly to FBOs with rental cars. Seriously. When my plane crapped out in Nebraska I just walked to the rental car counter and was home in a few hours. Came back and got the repaired plane later.

Can't always do it, but don't let that "must be back on Monday" thing worry you so much. Even WX. Just leave the plane and drive the nasty weather home in somebody else's car.

(If there's hail forecast, take the insurance waiver. LOL.)

There's not too many places a light aircraft could take me that I couldn't find a rental car and bum a ride to go get it, if pressed.

 

[jesse]

I've been stranded by the airlines by far more times than I've been stranded GA. I go GA more than I go the airlines. That said I'm more "current" than many of the GA pilots out there and usually can manage to work with whatever weather comes my way.

 

[Dav8or]

No sanctioned racing or activities to speak of to compete, no real social integration at all except among the geriatric set. It really should be EAA pushing forward, but they pretty much are the top and bottom generation with the two between missing. Old people giving kids rides. There's 2 generations of demographic that is in their prime disposable income period that is being missed because of a lack of cleavage. I've been saying it for many years, in order to grow GA, you have to grow a social aspect, and in that you have to introduce competitions.

Perhaps the folks that organize the aerobatic competitions should create a new class for competition. Something like Miata club racing, or T-6 racing, or the IROC, where all the competitors have to use the Cessna 152 Aerobat and only Limited modifications to the plane would be allowed. This would keep ongoing costs down, the entry costs lower and limit the kinds of maneuvers to what the airplane is capable, so new students would be competitive sooner.

Would this be attractive to kids, dunno.

 

[narchee]

Or fly under and around the cells in VMC down low where you can see where the weather is and isn't.

Not so fun to do that in Texas in summer. Hot and bumpy. Sweat and vomit.

 

[Henning]

Not so fun to do that in Texas in summer. Hot and bumpy. Sweat and vomit.

I flew pipeline all over TX all seasons, yeah, it's bumpy.

 

[bnt83]

I've been stuck for weather twice and "stranded" by a maintenance issue once in about 18 years.

The maintenance issue was a bad coil in one of the two magnetos on an airplane that a friend just bought.


Never had a breakdown in the 177 in 16 or so years. Unplanned maintenance maybe three times. Astronomical vomit inducing maintenance cost? Never.

 

[Bill Watson]

I guess I've been lucky too. In about 18 years of airplane operation I can't remember being stranded. The worse maintenance issues were flat tires; 3 tw flats due to a towbar problem, 1 flat before heading off to the Bahamas. None of those cost me a day or the trip.

I've been delayed a day by WX, canceled a few trips before leaving home, but never had to leave the plane... Why, to rush back to my home office?

I chalk it up to flying 'new equipment'; a 30 hour since new Maule and a home built.

For 10 of those years I flew 3 out of 4 weeks on a 'schedule' which motivated me to get the IR. I can remember arguing with Jay over the benefits of the IR....in retrospect we were both right. The cost-benefit analysis gave us both the right answers.

 

[whifferdill]

Perhaps the folks that organize the aerobatic competitions should create a new class for competition. Something like Miata club racing, or T-6 racing, or the IROC, where all the competitors have to use the Cessna 152 Aerobat and only Limited modifications to the plane would be allowed. This would keep ongoing costs down, the entry costs lower and limit the kinds of maneuvers to what the airplane is capable, so new students would be competitive sooner.

Would this be attractive to kids, dunno.

I've been organizing and running aerobatic contests for about 4 years now and am tapped into the "interest stream" when it comes to participation. Aerobatic competition 'almost' always has been a cult sport. Even most pilots who fly aerobatics have no clue about what the sport is really like. There was another thread discussing aerobatic interest. Say 5% of pilots fly aerobatics at all, 5% of that 5% will be serious and interested enough to show up to a contest, regardless of the airplane they fly.

There is already a category for entry-level performance airplanes and pilots. I wish I had an answer to increased participation, but it's pretty much the economy, diminishing pilot population, and shrinking exposure to tailwheel airplanes and aerobatic flying. Your average flight school doesn't exactly expose folks to this.

My educated guess is that you could count on one hand the number of 152 Aerobat pilots across the country who would come out of the woodwork to fly a contest just for Aerobats or similar aircraft (7ECA Citabria). You'd be lucky to get two to show up at any one contest.

It's similar to the 7KCAB Citabria with inverted systems. There are about 250 in the registry. About 3 or 4 have competed in the last 10 years, and this is an airplane that doesn't need any handicapping advantages or 'One Design' classes to be competitive. In the right hands, they can win the first two categories in the current competition structure.

Now if we could even small percentages of Vans RVers into the sport, that would be big. 7,000 RVs out there now, about 3 across the country are involved in the sport...and it's not because the airplane is not well suited.

The kids with airplanes in their blood will find their way in. Otherwise the kids will find their video games more exciting and a whole lot cheaper than aerobatics in a real airplane.

 

[N801BH]

I've been organizing and running aerobatic contests for about 4 years now and am tapped into the "interest stream" when it comes to participation. Aerobatic competition 'almost' always has been a cult sport. Even most pilots who fly aerobatics have no clue about what the sport is really like. There was another thread discussing aerobatic interest. Say 5% of pilots fly aerobatics at all, 5% of that 5% will be serious and interested enough to show up to a contest, regardless of the airplane they fly.

There is already a category for entry-level performance airplanes and pilots. I wish I had an answer to increased participation, but it's pretty much the economy, diminishing pilot population, and shrinking exposure to tailwheel airplanes and aerobatic flying. Your average flight school doesn't exactly expose folks to this.

My educated guess is that you could count on one hand the number of 152 Aerobat pilots across the country who would come out of the woodwork to fly a contest just for Aerobats or similar aircraft (7ECA Citabria). You'd be lucky to get two to show up at any one contest.

It's similar to the 7KCAB Citabria with inverted systems. There are about 250 in the registry. About 3 or 4 have competed in the last 10 years, and this is an airplane that doesn't need any handicapping advantages or 'One Design' classes to be competitive. In the right hands, they can win the first two categories in the current competition structure.

Now if we could even small percentages of Vans RVers into the sport, that would be big. 7,000 RVs out there now, about 3 across the country are involved in the sport...and it's not because the airplane is not well suited.

My concern would be people pulling the wings of Aerobat 152's....

IROC cars could be equaled by using limiting RPM chips in the MSD ignition boxes.....

In a IROC car , you blow it up or spin out,,, the wrecker drags you back to the pits....

In a plane and you rip off the wing,,, you go home in a body bag...

I don't think you could limit G's and some guys would over stress the plane trying to win..... IMHO

 

[whifferdill]

My concern would be people pulling the wings of Aerobat 152's....

IROC cars could be equaled by using limiting RPM chips in the MSD ignition boxes.....

In a IROC car , you blow it up or spin out,,, the wrecker drags you back to the pits....

In a plane and you rip off the wing,,, you go home in a body bag...

I don't think you could limit G's and some guys would over stress the plane trying to win..... IMHO

Please don't take this as an insult, but when I mentioned in my post above that even most aerobatic pilots have no clue what competition acro is like, what you describe is a perfect example of a very common misconception of the sport. The Aerobat is designed for aerobatics. Pilots do not pull more G's in an effort to win. Scores are unrelated to how tight you can turn a corner. Competition acro requires no more G's than Sunday fun acro. It's about precision flying, not high G flying. It's hard for those not involved in the sport to understand these types of issues, and what's required of flying the sequences. It's a catch 22 thing. I could go on and on with examples on this subject.

BTW, Aerobats, Citabrias, and J-3 Cubs have competed just fine over the years. As far as I know, there has been only ONE fatality that has occurred during a contest flight since the inception of IAC in 1972. That crash was in the late 70's I think and involved structural failure of a Stits Playboy, which is not even an aerobatic design. Competition aerobatics has an incredible safety record. Nobody has ever (or ever will) bar a 152 Aerobat from competition. There's nothing wrong with them. There really aren't that many out there, though. There are maybe a couple each year that compete.

 

[N801BH]

Please don't take this as an insult, but when I mentioned in my post above that even most aerobatic pilots have no clue what competition acro is like, what you describe is a perfect example of a very common misconception of the sport. The Aerobat is designed for aerobatics. Pilots do not pull more G's in an effort to win. Scores are unrelated to how tight you can turn a corner. Competition acro requires no more G's than Sunday fun acro. It's about precision flying, not high G flying. It's hard for those not involved in the sport to understand these types of issues, and what's required of flying the sequences. It's a catch 22 thing. I could go on and on with examples on this subject.

BTW, Aerobats, Citabrias, and J-3 Cubs have competed just fine over the years. As far as I know, there has been only ONE fatality that has occurred during a contest flight since the inception of IAC in 1972. That crash was in the late 70's I think and involved structural failure of a Stits Playboy, which is not even an aerobatic design. Competition aerobatics has an incredible safety record.

Thanks for the reply.....

What was Zooms girlfriend crash caused by?

 

[Ghery]

Then again, the passengers on PSA Flight 182 would probably have appreciated some crap surrounding the two guys in the Cessna enjoying the simple pleasure...

Sorry to take so long replying, but...

IIRC, the 727 ran over the 172 because the guys up front lost track of it. The 172 was in contact with ATC and fully compliant with their instructions.

That particular accident hit a bit close to home for me. We had two guys from our office get off that plane at its stop before San Diego. My best friend was scheduled to take it to San Diego, but cancelled due to illness. We worked in a traveling organization (US Navy civilians) and Poor Sailor's Airline was quite common for us back then.

 

[whifferdill]

What was Zooms girlfriend crash caused by?

I don't know who 'Zoom' or his GF are.

 

[N801BH]

I don't know who 'Zoom' or his GF are.

Good answer...

 

[dans2992]

As far as the "at work at 8am Monday morning" thing - even airlines can't make that promise, so that's an issue anytime you travel.

Just call the boss and tell him you were traveling back home and "your flight was cancelled".

 

[jkaduk]

As far as the "at work at 8am Monday morning" thing - even airlines can't make that promise, so that's an issue anytime you travel.

Just call the boss and tell him you were traveling back home and "your flight was cancelled".

"I have to be at work on Monday" is so easily remedied I don't even know why it comes up.
Plan your return on Saturday.
Buy refundable tickets on the airlines.
Fly to places that have one way rental cars available.
Put in for vacation on Monday. If you get back early go in. Or use the day to get stuff done around the house.
Can you telecommute? If you get stuck on Sunday do some work to make up for getting back late.
Where I work, I never "have to be there". If I can't be there I call in and either take a vacation day or make it up later. People have reasons they can't be at work all the time, they're sick, kid's sick, car broke etc. As long as you don't abuse it you can miss work if you have to.
Call in sick - tell them you are "under the weather".
If you absolutely positively have to be somewhere, you must build in some cushion, no matter how you travel.

 

[nauga]

What was Zooms girlfriend crash caused by?

Vicki Cruse's accident occurred in a qualifying flight (overseas). Not sure of the IAC affiliation. IIRC it was attributed to either incapacitation or rudder malfunction.

Wasn't Dan Rihn's One Design supposed to be a cheap(er) way to enter competition? How'd that work out? They look like fun airplanes.

Nauga,
and his Aresti record

 

[whifferdill]

Vicki Cruse's accident occurred in a qualifying flight (overseas). Not sure of the IAC affiliation. IIRC it was attributed to either incapacitation or rudder malfunction.

http://www.eaa.ca/news/2010/CruseAccidentReport.pdf

Wasn't Dan Rihn's One Design supposed to be a cheap(er) way to enter competition? How'd that work out? They look like fun airplanes.

The 1D is a great bang for the buck airplane. Basically like a Pitts S-1 with a single wing. Less parasite drag, but high induced drag due to low wing area and higher weight. They are competitive at the Advanced level in competition, just like a 180 hp Pitts S-1S. They roll faster than a Pitts and are less draggy once you get the G off of them.

The idea behind the One Design concept was that many people would build this airplane (all set up the same) as a low cost entry into a high performance acro plane, and compete against like airplanes to truly separate pilot skill from aircraft performance differences. It was an interesting concept, but in practice was fundamentally flawed. The "One Design" competition concept never took off, even though a number of the airplanes were built and continue to compete in the standard competition structure in all but the Unlimited category.

The problems: they are plans-built airplanes, which means lot of work. Not everyone wants to configure their airplane exactly like everyone else with a 150 hp motor and fixed pitch prop. Some of them have angle valve 360's and CS props. There were never going to be throngs of people willing to plans-build a single seat purpose-built aerobatic airplane with little non-aerobatic utility.

The other problem with the concept is that if you're going to have a "One Design" contest with nothing but One Design airplanes, you need to have multiple categories to support varying skill levels. If you only have one category, an Intermediate level sequence for example will be too simple for some and too challenging for others. So what you really need is multiple categories of varying difficulty levels. Given that there are only about 20-30 pilots who show up to a standard 5-category contest of all aircraft types, if you had a multiple category One Design contest, you'd be lucky to get 3 pilots in any given category due to the low numbers of airplanes out there. Just not very competitive or sustainable to try to have a One Design contest in addition to and outside the standard competition structure allowing all aircraft types.

 

[nauga]

The other problem with the concept is that if you're going to have a "One Design" contest with nothing but One Design airplanes, you need to have multiple categories to support varying skill levels...

Ah, that's what I was missing. My recollection was that it was an entry to higher levels, not necessarily intended to compete there. Thanks for the clarification. Never saw one compete but in different places I've lived there have been one or two. All I know is they have me on angles but I've got them on energy.

Nauga,
and his extension

 

[sarangan]

I've been stranded by the airlines by far more times than I've been stranded GA. I go GA more than I go the airlines. That said I'm more "current" than many of the GA pilots out there and usually can manage to work with whatever weather comes my way.

I was also more "current" than the average pilot since I was instructing quite a bit at that time, but what slowed down my enthusiasm was one particular trip with my family. It was a hot, humid and bumpy day, 35 knot headwind in a 120 knot airplane. The cabin felt extremely uncomfortable and loud, and the 3.5 hour flight was looking like a 5 hour trip. After a miserable one hour, we stopped, rented a car and drove home in another five hours. It was a brand new Toyota Prius, extremely comfy, quiet, AC, etc.. The airplane seemed like a gas guzzling loud monstrosity compared to the Toyota. The five hour drive felt shorter than the first hour we spent in the airplane, and it costs a mere $50 car rental and some insignificant amount in gas. My flying enthusiasm was significantly dampened after that experience.