What is an emergency?

[Swampfox201]

I was on a commercial jet a couple years ago when a passenger collapsed in the back while descending for landing.

After a couple minutes the pilot came on saying we were first in line to land as they had declared an emergency. This was taken well by those of us in the back who knew what was going on but those up front got a little concerned.

A few moments later the pilot cleared it up saying it was a medical emergency for a passenger in back so everyone was in the same page.


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[poadeleted20]

Are there similar regs in Part 121, etc.?

None with which I am familiar, but I can't imagine the FAA getting upset with an air carrier pilot for, say, landing at an airport not on the company's paperwork because the plane was on fire and no "approved" airports were closer.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well there's another nit. A force Oce doesn't not have priority over emergency aircraft. You're up on this stuff, right?

Depends on whether the emergency aircraft is in distress or just urgency. A medical emergency could fall into either subset of emergencies.

 

[N801BH]

Depends on whether the emergency aircraft is in distress or just urgency. A medical emergency could fall into either subset of emergencies.

Let me get this straight.....

A commercial flight is inbound with a medical emergency and a perfectly healthy POTUS in inbound on AF1.. And it is debatable who gets priority...........

You are kiddin... Right....

Ron.... I think you have been inside the "beltway" a bit too long...

 

[Henning]

Dude, the entire movement area of LAX was shut down while the perfectly healthy POTUS got a haircut aboard AF1, so anything is possible.

 

[Palmpilot]

Dude, the entire movement area of LAX was shut down while the perfectly healthy POTUS got a haircut aboard AF1, so anything is possible.

Apparently, it was two of the four runways, not the entire movement area.

The New York Times
Haircut Grounded Clinton While the Price Took Off
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN,
Published: May 21, 1993

It may have been the most expensive haircut in history.

Two of Los Angeles International Airport's four runways were shut down for nearly an hour on Tuesday, some incoming flights were delayed and Air Force One sat on the tarmac with engines running -- all so that President Clinton's Beverly Hills hairstylist, Chistophe, could come aboard and give Mr. Clinton a high-price trim before he took off for Washington.

Questions about Mr. Clinton's runway razor cut dominated the White House news briefing today, with the communications director, George Stephanopoulos, scrambling to explain why the populist President tied up one of the country's busiest airports to have his hair trimmed. Everybody Does It

Federal Aviation Administration spokesmen were quoted by The Associated Press as saying that while Air Force One sat on the runway on an indefinite haircut hold, two of the airport's four runways were shut down and some commuter flights scheduled to land were forced to circle instead. The White House insisted, though, that the Secret Service had not sought any special hold on air traffic while the President was getting his locks shorn.

"Everybody has to get their hair cut," Mr. Stephanopoulos said. "I think the President normally gets his hair cut sometime during the week. It happens at different places. As you know, he has a very busy schedule, and he just tries to work it in when he can. That was when we were able to work it in."

And who paid for this haircut?

"The President and his family have a personal services contract with Cristophe to cover things like this," Mr. Stephanopoulos said. "They pay for it. It's for the whole family."

In light of Mr. Clinton's haircut by a stylist to Hollywood stars, Mr. Stephanopoulos was asked whether his boss was still the President of the common man.

"Absolutely," he answered. "And if you look at his economic package, it's a package that's designed to turn this around and to really get some real benefits to middle-class Americans. And that's what's important."

Newsday, June 30, 1993:
"Bill's Coif: The Myth; Runway trim delayed no one":

The story was that planes were kept circling as President Bill
Clinton had his hair clipped on Air Force One at Los Angeles airport
last month.

The runway haircut by Beverly Hills stylist Cristophe became such
a metaphor for perceived White House arrogance that the president
himself felt compelled to apologize for the reported flight delays.

But the reports were wrong.

According to Federal Aviation Administration records obtained
through the Freedom of Information Act, the May 18 haircut caused no
significant delays of regularly scheduled passenger flights - no
circling planes, no traffic jams on the runways.

Commuter airlines that fly routes reportedly affected by the
president's haircut confirmed they have no record of delays that day.

The FAA records, generated by the regional Air Route Traffic
Control Center, show that an unscheduled air taxi flight had the only
delay attributed to the closure of two runways for an hour in
anticipation of Air Force One's departure. The air taxi took off 17
minutes after leaving the gate -- two minutes late, by FAA accounting.

"If you understand the air traffic system, you'd find that
statement [that planes were circling] ludicrous," said Fred O'Donnell,
an FAA spokesman at the agency's Western-Pacific regional office,
which responded to New York Newsday's May 21 request under the freedom
of information law.

O'Donnell said that although two runways were closed, traffic was
light that afternoon and arriving flights were simply diverted to the
two other runways. "It did not cause any problems," he said.

 

[poadeleted20]

Let me get this straight.....

A commercial flight is inbound with a medical emergency and a perfectly healthy POTUS in inbound on AF1.. And it is debatable who gets priority...........

You are kiddin... Right....

Ron.... I think you have been inside the "beltway" a bit too long...

As I said, the controller's handbook differentiates between distress and urgency in this situation. So if your medical emergency is only urgency level, the book requires the controller to give AF1 priority. If it's distress, you get the priority. But you get to tell the controller which level it is, so make sure you communicate that clearly.

 

[N801BH]

As I said, the controller's handbook differentiates between distress and urgency in this situation. So if your medical emergency is only urgency level, the book requires the controller to give AF1 priority. If it's distress, you get the priority. But you get to tell the controller which level it is, so make sure you communicate that clearly.

Hmmmmm..
A ongoing different thread on POA has a controller declaring an EMERGENCY "for" the pilot.....

Did this controller consult the" controllers handbook" before he/she declared...............

Ps... I highly respect your VAST knowledge of the rules... But you always seem to side with the FAA/ NTSB / General council rulings.... long before you side with common sense........ IMHO...

 

[poadeleted20]

Ps... I highly respect your VAST knowledge of the rules... But you always seem to side with the FAA/ NTSB / General council rulings.... long before you side with common sense........ IMHO...

When it comes to the rules, what the FAA Chief Counsel or NTSB says (perhaps regrettably) trumps what any individual pilot's "common sense" says. So, if someone asks about the rules, I give them what the FAA or NTSB says. Please don't ever confuse that with what I might personally think about it unless I say so specifically. In this case, I thought the question was "What is an emergency?" within the context of communication with ATC, and I believe I have accurately answered that question according to the FAA's regulations and guidance on point -- even if some folks here might think those .regulations and guidance are contrary to "common sense".

And yes, controllers are authorized by FAA Order 7110.65 to treat an aircraft as though its pilot had declared an emergency even if the pilot hasn't done so if the controller feels the situation requires that be done in order to provide additional service/priority to that aircraft in order to bring the situation to a safe conclusion.

 

[Jaybird180]

As I said, the controller's handbook differentiates between distress and urgency in this situation. So if your medical emergency is only urgency level, the book requires the controller to give AF1 priority. If it's distress, you get the priority. But you get to tell the controller which level it is, so make sure you communicate that clearly.

Ron,
Perhaps I've already used up my brain-cell quota at work today. Can you please explain or provide examples of what medical emergency may constitute urgency but not distress?

 

[MAKG1]

Ron,
Perhaps I've already used up my brain-cell quota at work today. Can you please explain or provide examples of what medical emergency may constitute urgency but not distress?

Acute appendicitis?

How about a nosebleed that won't quit?

 

[Jaybird180]

Acute appendicitis?

How about a nosebleed that won't quit?

Acute appendicitis is a RIGHT NOW deal. Hurts like H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.
Persistent nosebleed can turn into excessive blood loss.

Either of those conditions can affect safety of flight if it happens to the flight crew. Either can be life threatening to a passenger.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron,
Perhaps I've already used up my brain-cell quota at work today. Can you please explain or provide examples of what medical emergency may constitute urgency but not distress?

Airsickness.

 

[MAKG1]

Acute appendicitis is a RIGHT NOW deal. Hurts like H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.
Persistent nosebleed can turn into excessive blood loss.

Either of those conditions can affect safety of flight if it happens to the flight crew. Either can be life threatening to a passenger.

I've had an appendectomy. While I agree with the sentiment that a sufferer wants it out NOW, they aren't going to die in the next half hour unless it's already been going on for a long time. They may have a rupture to deal with that they wouldn't otherwise. I sat in the ER for six hours like that while they tried to rule out all the other stuff it could be, like kidney stones. I could have sat on an airplane for 10 extra very unpleasant minutes. The FAs would have had some extra mess to clean up.

Yes, a persistent nosebleed can become distress, which is why I used it as an example. Urgency means it's not distress right now, but it could become so if not expedited.

 

[MAKG1]

Airsickness.

Not sure how airsickness can be a medical emergency. Dehydration?

 

[poadeleted20]

Not sure how airsickness can be a medical emergency. Dehydration?

Maybe you've never had an airsick passenger, but I have, and I think an airsick passenger constitutes an urgency situation, but not distress. That sounds like a non-distress medical emergency to me, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Palmpilot]

In my admittedly limited piloting experience, having a passenger using an airsickness bag while I'm landing the plane tests my concentration, if nothing else!

 

[poadeleted20]

In my admittedly limited piloting experience, having a passenger using an airsickness bag while I'm landing the plane tests my concentration, if nothing else!

That said, at that point, there's not much ATC can do to help you, although I suppose if your concentration is too adversely affected during landing, having the equipment standing by might get you out of the wreckage and into the ER faster.

 

[Palmpilot]

That said, at that point, there's not much ATC can do to help you, although I suppose if your concentration is too adversely affected during landing, having the equipment standing by might get you out of the wreckage and into the ER faster.

I mentioned the landing phase of flight because that's where I was when it happened, but I imagine that pilot distraction in any high workload phase of flight could be a safety factor.

 

[Jaybird180]

Maybe you've never had an airsick passenger, but I have, and I think an airsick passenger constitutes an urgency situation, but not distress. That sounds like a non-distress medical emergency to me, but maybe that's just me.

Maybe it was a miscommunication, but the requirement was to identify a medical situation for which you'd declare that was urgent but not distress.

Would you declare for airsickness?

 

[Jaybird180]

Ron,
Perhaps I've already used up my brain-cell quota at work today. Can you please explain or provide examples of what medical emergency may constitute urgency but not distress?

Manopause?

 

[ChrisK]

Manopause?

Pee pee dance.

 

[poadeleted20]

Maybe it was a miscommunication, but the requirement was to identify a medical situation for which you'd declare that was urgent but not distress.

Would you declare for airsickness?

That's the question I answered. Airsickness = Urgency = Emergency but not Distress.

 

[Captain]

That's the question I answered. Airsickness = Urgency = Emergency but not Distress.

Because, ya know, airlines declare an emergency whenever a pax feels or gets nauseous. Or at a minimum they request an urgency..., errrr or maybe they declare a distress. Oh wait, none of that is right.

This thread is what happens when librarians try to give real world instruction.

 

[kayoh190]

Because, ya know, airlines declare an emergency whenever a pax feels or gets nauseous. Oh wait, none of that is right.

This thread is what happens when librarians try to give real world instruction.

Right, because nausea is what we were originally talking about.

You said airlines don't declare for heart attacks, then proceeded to go on the defensive when shown examples where this is not the case.

But hey, if you have a heart attack in the back of my airplane, this librarian will declare an emergency and get you to medical care as soon as I safely can. :wink2:

 

[Captain]

Right, because nausea is what we were originally talking about.

You said airlines don't declare for heart attacks, then proceeded to go on the defensive when shown examples where this is not the case.

But hey, if you have a heart attack in the back of my airplane, this librarian will declare an emergency and get you to medical care as soon as I safely can. :wink2:

I didn't get defensive and I stand by what I said. "Airlines don't declare an emergency for a pax suffering a heart attack".

Y'all can spin it anyway you like and pretend ATC declares for them, but the fact remains they don't declare. I've heard airlines declare emergencies before and know what it sounds like. I've been the guy making that call. I've also heard them on freq with a pax medical issue and it sounds quite different. I've been that guy too.

Talk about urgency and distress all you want but another fact remains those terms mean little as they are not said on the radio. "Emergency" is the term used on the radio if the safe outcome of the flight is in question.

I've said it could be a pax medical issue could be an emergency IF there was something else going on like interfering with the controls or emotional issue. Heck, if you as PIC think it's an emergency it probably is.

But understand the professionals flying the heavy iron don't look at it that way. If that means anything to you then great. If not, that's okay too. Just another perspective.

 

[kayoh190]

I don't know what to tell you, man. I get that you have airline experience, and perhaps at your airline(s) you didn't declare for this sort of thing. My issue is that you're trying to speak for all airlines, and I provided a counterpoint to show that you're painting with too broad a brush. But if quoting my manual isn't enough to convince you that I'm not just talking out of my ass here, I don't think anything will.

 

[Captain]

You did. I have to admit when I read it I dismissed it at the time because in my mind it seemed to refer to the crew thereby making my point. I see now it doesn't say pax or crew and just says 'medical emergency requiring a diversion'.


Still seems not on par with the other things listed as they all directly and seriously affect the flight in general and would, in my opinion, certainly rise to the level of declaring. I'm not adverse to declaring an emergency. I think many pilots here and in the airlines are much too slow to do it when warranted and I've posted so.

I just don't see the benefits of declaring for a pax issue outweighing the risk to the entire flight. And make no mistake about it, when you declare the risks go up. Pilots and controllers, no matter how well intentioned, get rushed and adrenalin starts getting pumped. Frequencies get congested and other flights can start having issues getting in required communications. Just recently a Delta crew landed on a taxiway in Atlanta and being in the throws of an emergency was cited as a major contributing factor.

This is not to say 'don't declare'. I wouldn't scoff a PIC who did, especially if it's in his GOM to do so. But if that's not the case and the pax issue is the only issue at hand I still don't see the need. Simply telling ATC the nature of the event will get you all the priority and services you need. They don't need all the regulatory other stuff declaring sets in motion (fuel on board, souls on board, etc). You just need to get to an appropriate airport as quickly as possible. Let's keep separation and other SOPs in place.

IMO

If someone is having a heart attack in the back, you better believe I'll declare and get the airplane down on the first piece of pavement with medical personnel readily available (as safely as possible, of course). For the record, my manual says this:

When to Declare an Emergency.

Declare an emergency when in a distress condition and/or
— a flight cannot definitely establish its position
— aircraft component failure jeopardizes flight safety — an aircraft is endangered by fire
• Note •
Any fire or indication of fire constitutes an emergency.

— in-flight medical emergency requiring a diversion
— the remaining fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a
safe landing
— engine failure
— any contingency jeopardizing flight safety

 

[Captain]

Right, because nausea is what we were originally talking about.

You said airlines don't declare for heart attacks, then proceeded to go on the defensive when shown examples where this is not the case.

But hey, if you have a heart attack in the back of my airplane, this librarian will declare an emergency and get you to medical care as soon as I safely can. :wink2:

BTW, sorry about the 'librarian' thing. Didn't apply to you anyway. Being a librarian in my mind is when you read past the regulations and start making up your own interpretations based on super in depth inside baseball garbage that pilots don't even have access to. If it ain't on a check ride or in the FARs or Company Manuals then it's hangar talk and opinion. I hate when opinion get presented as authoritative fact (although, I tend to do it from time to time with a red face).

 

[kayoh190]

BTW, sorry about the 'librarian' thing. Didn't apply to you anyway.

Don't sweat it, man - I'm probably more ****y than normal anyway because of this damned cold.

And I do see what you're saying. There's definitely a point where rushing too much to get the plane on the ground puts a lot more lives in jeopardy, and that's obviously unacceptable.