What is an airline cadet pilot training program?

[N918KT]

I hear some airlines in other countries outside of the U.S. trains their pilots through a cadet pilot training program.

I'm just purely curious in how airline pilots are trained in other countries vs. the U.S.

What is an airline cadet pilot training program and how do pilots get trained in other countries? Do aspiring airline pilots apply for a pilot position at an airline and if they are hired, they accepted into a airline cadet program and do all of their training in the airline they are working for, including primary training? Do airlines even own their own flight training aircraft like 172s and Cherokees?

 

[LDJones]

I hear some airlines in other countries outside of the U.S. trains their pilots through a cadet pilot training program.

I'm just purely curious in how airline pilots are trained in other countries vs. the U.S.

What is an airline cadet pilot training program and how do pilots get trained in other countries? Do aspiring airline pilots apply for a pilot position at an airline and if they are hired, they accepted into a airline cadet program and do all of their training in the airline they are working for, including primary training? Do airlines even own their own flight training aircraft like 172s and Cherokees?

In some cases, yes to all of the above. In other cases, they contract out the training after accepting the trainee.

 

[Henning]

I hear some airlines in other countries outside of the U.S. trains their pilots through a cadet pilot training program.

I'm just purely curious in how airline pilots are trained in other countries vs. the U.S.

What is an airline cadet pilot training program and how do pilots get trained in other countries? Do aspiring airline pilots apply for a pilot position at an airline and if they are hired, they accepted into a airline cadet program and do all of their training in the airline they are working for, including primary training? Do airlines even own their own flight training aircraft like 172s and Cherokees?

They take kids from rich families and train them to be airline pilots from square one.

 

[evapilotaz]

So at night they go busting into some rich family home and snatch a kid and force them into flying. They didn't bust into my home. Im missing one element. The rich kid part.

 

[Henning]

So at night they go busting into some rich family home and snatch a kid and force them into flying. They didn't bust into my home. Im missing one element. The rich kid part.

Don't be stupid, I never said they snatch, it's typically a matter of influence or nepotism. Which airline accepted you in their cadet program?

 

[Bonchie]

I think in some countries they can get into the right seat of a 737 with like 300 hours. Remember, there's basically no GA over there compared to us (it exists, but it's more expensive and much smaller). So they don't have a pipeline of pilots waiting in the wings.

They do training very differently with not necessarily any worse results (talking western Europe). Or at least it doesn't seem like they have planes falling out of the sky over there.

By comparison, our standards to become even a bottom feeder airline pilot are astronomically higher.

Once the glut of old ATPs die off, you'll probably see something similar start here. Especially if the airlines keep pushing user fees and other GA killing endeavors that will eventually strangle their pilot supply. I don't know too many 20 year olds saying "I'm gonna go spend 100k to get my ratings so I can make 15k for 5 years or move to Alaska."

 

[Henning]

U.S. airlines just haven't seemed to realize that the taxpayer funded military pipeline of pilots is no longer adequate and they're going to need to provide for themselves.

 

[Bonchie]

U.S. airlines just haven't seemed to realize that the taxpayer funded military pipeline of pilots is no longer adequate and they're going to need to provide for themselves.

Not only is it shrinking, I've known several guys who came out of the Army lately who didn't even want to fly afterwards. So it's no guarantee that every former military pilot will even have interest in being an airline pilot.

Besides drones taking over, military pilots are also flying less with budget cuts. I heard from one guy in the ANG who said he only flew 80 hours last year. He might not even have ATP minimums when he gets out.

I wonder if they'll change the rules so drone pilots can log time eventually?

 

[James331]

Not only is it shrinking, I've known several guys who came out of the Army lately who didn't even want to fly afterwards. So it's no guarantee that every former military pilot will even have interest in being an airline pilot.

Besides drones taking over, military pilots are also flying less with budget cuts. I heard from one guy in the ANG who said he only flew 80 hours last year. He might not even have ATP minimums when he gets out.

I wonder if they'll change the rules so drone pilots can log time eventually?

Plenty of private sector folks with more relivent flight experience anyway

Airlines issue isn't lack of pilots, it's lack of a will to pay enough to attract ATPs.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Besides drones taking over, military pilots are also flying less with budget cuts. I heard from one guy in the ANG who said he only flew 80 hours last year. He might not even have ATP minimums when he gets out.

All depends on the airplane. Plus usually the guards active duty counterparts fly more. I did 80 hours over the past 3 weeks.

Plenty of private sector folks with more relevant flight experience anyway.

Care to elaborate?

 

[LDJones]

I think in some countries they can get into the right seat of a 737 with like 300 hours.

Quite a few kids made it into the right seat of airliners at 300 hours here before the recent regulatory change. Maybe not a lot, but it certainly wasn't unheard of. A friend told me about a 300 FO he got paired with during recurrent training. He said he was one of best he'd flown with and requested him the next time around. Then the kid quit and went to medical school.

 

[Henning]

Quite a few kids made it into the right seat of airliners at 300 hours here before the recent regulatory change. Maybe not a lot, but it certainly wasn't unheard of. A friend told me about a 300 FO he got paired with during recurrent training. He said he was one of best he'd flown with and requested him the next time around. Then the kid quit and went to medical school.

When I started United was hiring at 400 hours for the FE seat.

 

[Bonchie]

Airlines issue isn't lack of pilots, it's lack of a will to pay enough to attract ATPs.

I'm not saying they have any issues right now.

One day this glut of 40-50 year old ATPs are gonna be aged out. And there aren't exactly a ton of people coming up behind them who are my age. There are some of us, but nowhere near the baby boomer generation.

In 20 years airlines may start having to look at cadet programs like they have in Europe.

 

[Henning]

I'm not saying they have any issues right now.

One day all these 40-50 year old ATPs are gonna be aged out. And there aren't exactly a ton of people coming up behind them who are my age. There are some of us, but nowhere near the baby boomer generation.

In 20 years airlines may start having to look at cadet programs like they have in Europe.

By then planes will be autonomous.

 

[Bonchie]

By then planes will be autonomous.

Highly doubt it.

We haven't even gotten autonomous subways here yet. It's going to take a lot longer then 20 years to get over the stigma of having no pilot on board an airliner. Never-mind the safety repercussions in an emergency or how much lobbying would go on by the unions to prevent it.

 

[Henning]

Highly doubt it.

We haven't even gotten autonomous subways here yet. It's going to take a lot longer then 20 years to get over the stigma of having no pilot on board an airliner. Never-mind the safety repercussions in an emergency or how much lobbying would go on by the unions to prevent it.

After a couple years of the Google self driving car, public opinion will change.

 

[RotorAndWing]

When I started United was hiring at 400 hours for the FE seat.

No they weren't.

 

[Henning]

No they weren't.

The ads were in Trade a Plane...

 

[RotorAndWing]

The ads were in Trade a Plane...

Find them and post them here.

Once again, you're just making stuff up as you go.

 

[Henning]

Find them and post them here.

Once again, you're just making stuff up as you go.

Yeah, like I have a stack of TAP from 1992.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Yeah, like I have a stack of TAP from 1992.

I was in the industry (airline) around the time you took your first flight lesson. I know for a fact your claim is BS.

 

[Henning]

I was in the industry (airline) around the time you took your first flight lesson. I know for a fact your claim is BS.

Ok, I'll just figure you're getting senile then.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Ok, I'll just figure you're getting senile then.

And we all know you're a compulsive liar.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

When I started United was hiring at 400 hours for the FE seat.

Actually they weren't. I was hired in '89. Had been on the property for 3 years in '92. Hiring had slowed down by then. They may have been advertising that minimum qualifications may have been as little as 400 hours but they weren't actively hiring with that little time.

 

[James331]

All depends on the airplane. Plus usually the guards active duty counterparts fly more. I did 80 hours over the past 3 weeks.



Care to elaborate?

Getting your hours flying 135/91/121 etc with pax, dealing with the FAA, civilian environment etc vs flying helos, fighters, tankers, etc for the military.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Getting your hours flying 135/91/121 etc with pax, dealing with the FAA, civilian environment etc vs flying helos, fighters, tankers, etc for the military.

Well lets see here, we have a pilot flying a DC-10 (KC-10) for the military. He's flying in the US NAS, under ATC control and FAA rules, just like his civilian counterparts. He has to pass training and check rides just like his civilian counterparts. Plus he flies international (like his civilian counterparts) using the same ICAO flight rules, long range navigation, HF position reporting, crossing various FIR's, etc, etc.

Plus he get's the extra added bonus of doing aerial refueling (which his civilian counterparts don't do) and flying into austere areas of the world using very specialized procedures.

So please tell us how his experience is any less relevant than his civilian counterparts??

 

[flyinhood]

Single seat fighter guys transitioning over to an airline have a very different experience than a former KC-10 pilot coming over to an airline.

C-130 person usually has an easier transition than F-16 person

 

[James331]

Well lets see here, we have a pilot flying a DC-10 (KC-10) for the military. He's flying in the US NAS, under ATC control and FAA rules, just like his civilian counterparts. He has to pass training and check rides just like his civilian counterparts. Plus he flies international (like his civilian counterparts) using the same ICAO flight rules, long range navigation, HF position reporting, crossing various FIR's, etc, etc.

Plus he get's the extra added bonus of doing aerial refueling (which his civilian counterparts don't do) and flying into austere areas of the world using very specialized procedures.

So please tell us how his experience is any less relevant than his civilian counterparts??

I didn't realize the majors were doing aerial refueling or taking incoming fire nowadays.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I didn't realize the majors were doing aerial refueling or taking incoming fire nowadays.

Your "military flying is not relevant" diatribes are comical, at best. You do your best to marginalize them. My example of the KC-10 pilot was to show he does everything his civilian counterpart does, plus additional duties that only add to his skill set.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Single seat fighter guys transitioning over to an airline have a very different experience than a former KC-10 pilot coming over to an airline.

C-130 person usually has an easier transition than F-16 person

And you base that on what experience?

 

[James331]

Your "military flying is not relevant" diatribes are comical, at best. You do your best to marginalize them. My example of the KC-10 pilot was to show he does everything his civilian counterpart does, plus additional duties that only add to his skill set.

Everything a 121 driver does?

Not all of them are KC-10 pilots.



Same lifestyle, same type of CRM, same type of airports, same type of customers, same type of flying and ground ops?


I'm not marginalizing anyone, I'm also not into this hero worship crap, of course millitary guys have skills and can be great airline pilots, but don't go painting them with the brush that you are.

And you base that on what experience?

You flew KC10s, C130s and F16s?

I haven't, however common sense would say that flying similar type aircraft would help a applicant no?




And where did you get that quote "military flying is not relevant" ? I NEVER said that, if you're going to put something in quotes be sure it's something someone actually said.

 

[overdrive148]

I'm not marginalizing anyone, I'm also not into this hero worship crap, of course millitary guys have skills and can be great airline pilots, but don't go painting them with the brush that you are.

He never called them heroes, he just said that they do a lot of the same things that 'normal' pilots do and then some more (refueling etc).

 

[RotorAndWing]

And where did you get that quote "military flying is not relevant" ? I NEVER said that, if you're going to put something in quotes be sure it's something someone actually said.

Plenty of private sector folks with more relivent flight experience anyway
.

Care to elaborate?

Getting your hours flying 135/91/121 etc with pax, dealing with the FAA, civilian environment etc vs flying helos, fighters, tankers, etc for the military.

I'm not marginalizing anyone, I'm also not into this hero worship crap, of course millitary guys have skills and can be great airline pilots, but don't go painting them with the brush that you are.

Hero worship??? WTF?, and where did that come from?

Oh wait, since you can't make a cognizant argument, you're trying deflection now, got it.

 

[James331]

Hero worship??? WTF?, and where did that come from?

Oh wait, since you can't make a cognizant argument, you're trying deflection now, got it.

I clearly said folks who have already been flying 121 have more relevant experience than a military guy, how on earth are you arguing with that.



And I'm still waiting to see where you found me saying that military pilot experience is NOT relevant? It's going to be a long wait... because I never said that

 

[RotorAndWing]

I clearly said folks who have already been flying 121 have more relevant experience than a military guy, how on earth are you arguing with that.

That just defies logic. But given the fact you have never flown 121, or in the military, have never experienced training in either organization, one could see where such a misguided opinion comes from.

And I'm still waiting to see where you found me saying that military pilot experience is NOT relevant? It's going to be a long wait... because I never said that

Go read post #33 and your quotes.

But of course, you are now going to play word games, it was very easy to see what you were saying.

 

[brien23]

Highly doubt it.

We haven't even gotten autonomous subways here yet. It's going to take a lot longer then 20 years to get over the stigma of having no pilot on board an airliner. Never-mind the safety repercussions in an emergency or how much lobbying would go on by the unions to prevent it.

Automation seems to do just fine people driving the trains seem to cause the the problems. Just a matter of time till autonomous subways are here. Aircraft freighter flying over seas probably first to go autonomous or at least someone on the ground working it like drones.

 

[JimNtexas]

Getting your hours flying 135/91/121 etc with pax, dealing with the FAA, civilian environment etc vs flying helos, fighters, tankers, etc for the military.

Of course all of that applies to military flying also. And a lot more.

The big thing about military pilots is that they have been sifted through a very fine grained sieve. Many are called to be military pilots, but few are chosen.

By and large civilian trained pilots are money limited. If they need another ride and can pay for another ride then they get another ride.

It's not that way in the U.S. military, not at least for U.S. students. In the Air Force friends in high places can get a student one or two extra rides, but if they can't pass the check at that point they are most likely kicked out of training.

If I were hiring pilots I'd first look for military transport pilots, then tanker guys, then fighter/special ops/helo guys.

In the case of fighter pilots especially you just have to be careful that their egos don't write checks their hands can't cash.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Of course all of that applies to military flying also. And a lot more.

The big thing about military pilots is that have been sifted through a very fine grained sieve. Many are called to be military pilots, but few are chosen.

By and large civilian trained pilots are money limited. If they need another ride and can pay for another ride then they get another ride.

It's not that way in the U.S. military, not at least for U.S. students. In the Air Force friends in high places can get a student one or two extra rides, but if they can't pass the check at that point they are most likely kicked out of training.

If I were hiring pilots I'd first look for military transport pilots, then tanker guys, then fighter/special ops/helo guys.

In the case of fighter pilots especially you just have to be careful that their egos don't write checks their hands can't cash.

For the time I was doing training in the airlines, as far as military goes I found the best "stick and rudder" guys were the helo pilots. The tanker, cargo and patrol guys fell right into a multi crew cockpit setting as they already had the experience.

 

[Frogs97]

I clearly said folks who have already been flying 121 have more relevant experience than a military guy, how on earth are you arguing with that.

You MIGHT be able to make that case for a single seat fighter jock ... maybe, but I doubt it. But I just went back to look at my FIL's logbook. He entered the Air Force as a 56hr PPL. He left 7 years later with 2300 hrs, 2100 of which is MEL. 5 mos after his last b-52 flight, he was carrying pax in a DC-9.

For someone that medically qualifies, there is no better path to the airlines than military flying. For the pilot, you are getting a decent pay while getting training and flying, and almost all your time will be in turbine engines. For the airlines, they are getting pilots with the most professional of training available. Learning civilian airport ops is nothing because they fly in there all the time. You think a chief pilot is going to swear over teaching a C-130 guy to shallow his bank in the turns?

This isn't to say there aren't great pilots that do the CFI, banner tow, freight dog, routes to the airlines. But it's pretty laughable to think there are better routes to the airlines than flying military.

 

[James331]

You MIGHT be able to make that case for a single seat fighter jock ... maybe, but I doubt it. But I just went back to look at my FIL's logbook. He entered the Air Force as a 56hr PPL. He left 7 years later with 2300 hrs, 2100 of which is MEL. 5 mos after his last b-52 flight, he was carrying pax in a DC-9.

For someone that medically qualifies, there is no better path to the airlines than military flying. For the pilot, you are getting a decent pay while getting training and flying, and almost all your time will be in turbine engines. For the airlines, they are getting pilots with the most professional of training available. Learning civilian airport ops is nothing because they fly in there all the time. You think a chief pilot is going to swear over teaching a C-130 guy to shallow his bank in the turns?

This isn't to say there aren't great pilots that do the CFI, banner tow, freight dog, routes to the airlines. But it's pretty laughable to think there are better routes to the airlines than flying military.

7 years and 2300hrs, there sure are faster ways though.


To each their own.