What is a fair price?

[John Baker]

Sometimes it is not all about money.

"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
Confucius

 

[wabower]

Many others warn against ruining a perfectly good avocation by trying to convert it to a vocation. Irrational decision-making, ignoring obvious risks, no knowledge of whether the real job is what they expect based on their hopes and dreams, etc.

For those who can accept a sub-standard level of compensation and no financial future, it's a great way to start out broke and maintain status quo.



There are many other

Sometimes it is not all about money.

"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
Confucius

 

[Everskyward]

Sometimes it is not all about money.

"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
Confucius

That's a pretty Pollyanna way of looking at it.

Many others warn against ruining a perfectly good avocation by trying to convert it to a vocation. Irrational decision-making, ignoring obvious risks, no knowledge of whether the real job is what they expect based on their hopes and dreams, etc.

For those who can accept a sub-standard level of compensation and no financial future, it's a great way to start out broke and maintain status quo.

And that's the opposite.

I think that reality is somewhere in between.

 

[brcase]

Since I am not a full time pilot, I charge about the same as I make at my day job. (<$200/day) I do charge a little more for open cockpit or slow/low powered aircraft.
of course that is in addition to my expenses, including meals.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Steve Foley]

Many other professions have had unpaid internships as a way to build experience and there does not seem to be a great deal of backlash against those interns. Why is it different for pilots?

Many of those unpaid internships are illegal, according to the Department of Labor.

See http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf

The Test For Unpaid Interns
There are some circumstances under which individuals who participate in “for-profit” private sector internships or training programs may do so without compensation. The Supreme Court has held that the term "suffer or permit to work" cannot be interpreted so as to make a person whose work serves only his or her own interest an employee of another who provides aid or instruction. This may apply to interns who receive training for their own educational benefit if the training meets certain criteria. The determination of whether an internship or training program meets this exclusion depends upon all of the facts and circumstances of each such program.

The following six criteria must be applied when making this determination:

1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment
2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

If all of the factors listed above are met, an employment relationship does not exist under the FLSA, and the Act’s minimum wage and overtime provisions do not apply to the intern. This exclusion from the definition of employment is necessarily quite narrow because the FLSA’s definition of “employ” is very broad. Some of the most commonly discussed factors for “for-profit” private sector internship programs are considered below.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Why would I pay $250/day if I could get it for free?

Because you want someone who has a reasonable amount of experience, who will give you your money's worth.

A ferry pilot who cares about their clients can easily SAVE the client their fee just by doing proper pre-flight planning.

A ferry pilot who is free, is inexperienced and uninsured and doesn't have enough assets for you to go after in a lawsuit - You may well lose your entire investment in your airplane.

Choose wisely.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not really. If working for free gets you the experience to move up then it works out OK. The only place working free for experience fails is at the bottom ie running a fryer or non niche/non legacy carrier flying jobs.

No, it really doesn't.

If you'll ferry a 172 for free, that means there's another, slightly more experienced pilot out there who's not making any money.

If that pilot decides he has to work for free to "get the experience to move up" maybe he'll decide it's OK to move that Seneca for free so he can get some multi time to help him move "up," so there's an even more experienced pilot who's not making any money...

... And on and on, up the food chain, until people have to work for free for so long to get to the one job at the top of the food chain that they may never get, that they decide this crazy business isn't worth it any more and they move on to something else, and we lose experienced pilots.

We don't have great pilots in the regionals in many cases, because they're still working for far less than they're worth to try to get left seat in a heavy at the majors someday.

 

[RyanShort1]

No, it really doesn't.

If you'll ferry a 172 for free, that means there's another, slightly more experienced pilot out there who's not making any money.

If that pilot decides he has to work for free to "get the experience to move up" maybe he'll decide it's OK to move that Seneca for free so he can get some multi time to help him move "up," so there's an even more experienced pilot who's not making any money...

... And on and on, up the food chain, until people have to work for free for so long to get to the one job at the top of the food chain that they may never get, that they decide this crazy business isn't worth it any more and they move on to something else, and we lose experienced pilots.

We don't have great pilots in the regionals in many cases, because they're still working for far less than they're worth to try to get left seat in a heavy at the majors someday.

What he said. Exactly...

Ryan

 

[ClimbnSink]

Pilots with slightly more experience are not and should not be the concern of pilots building time towards a goal. You guys act like pro pilots are all in the same union shop, doesn't work like that. If pilot McFreebie gets what he needs ferrying planes for free he wins, everybody sitting around saying he shouldn't do that for less than X lose.

 

[kmead]

We use three different pilots to ferry Malibu, Jetprop and Meridains for us. They charge $350.00 a day plus expences. I think it's a fair charge for their experience. I know that the customer will receive the aircraft in perfect shape and that the pilot will present himself in a professional manner. I will never complain about their bills that they send to us. When it comes to the pick-up and delivery of the kids they really go above and beyond.

Kevin

 

[wabower]

Pilots aren't worth any more than they are paid. If they were worth more, they would be paid more. The job market (macro) and the employer (micro) dictate what jobs are worth.

If the employee decides he's worth more than the employer is willing to pay, the employee has the option of becoming self-employed.

When what you want to do for a living is something that many others will gladly do as a hobby, you can assume your chosen career path probably has a less-than-secure future. OTOH, how many people line up at the sanitation department every morning wanting to haul trash for nothing?

No, it really doesn't.

If you'll ferry a 172 for free, that means there's another, slightly more experienced pilot out there who's not making any money.

If that pilot decides he has to work for free to "get the experience to move up" maybe he'll decide it's OK to move that Seneca for free so he can get some multi time to help him move "up," so there's an even more experienced pilot who's not making any money...

... And on and on, up the food chain, until people have to work for free for so long to get to the one job at the top of the food chain that they may never get, that they decide this crazy business isn't worth it any more and they move on to something else, and we lose experienced pilots.

We don't have great pilots in the regionals in many cases, because they're still working for far less than they're worth to try to get left seat in a heavy at the majors someday.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Pilots with slightly more experience are not and should not be the concern of pilots building time towards a goal.

So, what does a "pilot building time towards a goal" become after he gets a few more hours? A "pilot with slightly more experience." So yes, it IS his concern.

You guys act like pro pilots are all in the same union shop, doesn't work like that.

No, because if it did they'd all be getting paid a lot better. I hate union shops, but in the case of the airlines they're a necessary evil. But they're all separate unions, too.

Pro pilots are not "in the same union shop" but to act like someone doing the job for free doesn't hurt others in the same profession, well, I've got some waterfront property in Arizona to sell you...

If pilot McFreebie gets what he needs ferrying planes for free he wins, everybody sitting around saying he shouldn't do that for less than X lose.

No, McFreebie gets a short-term win and a long-term loss. Sure he gets cheap flight time now, but it also means he probably won't get paid much for having that experience later. And McFreebie's clients probably don't do so well either - Like I said, a good ferry pilot can save their clients a lot more money than they charge.

 

[John Baker]

If so many are providing a service for free, there probably is not much of a market for those who charge for that same service.

I do know if I needed someone to ferry my plane, and someone offered to do it for no charge, I doubt if I would continue my search for a ferry pilot.

I did pay a thousand dollar ferry fee when I bought my plane from a guy in east Texas.

John

 

[flyingcheesehead]

We don't have great pilots in the regionals in many cases, because they're still working for far less than they're worth to try to get left seat in a heavy at the majors someday.

To expand on this point...

I was a truck driver, and when people found out I was a pilot, they asked why I wasn't off flying for the airlines, under the assumption that most of the public has that being a pilot is more lucrative.

I was making about $60K/year. It cost me basically nothing to get my CDL, as I first got my CDL as a volunteer for a non-profit. My third-ever time in a commercial vehicle (class B) was my road test. My third-ever time in a semi was my Class A road test. There's no requirement to get class B first, that's just how I did it. To rent a truck, last I did that, cost $415/week and $0.07/mile which is WAY more than enough to practice and pass the road test. The books are free from the state. So, to get into that $60K/year job, it can take an initial investment of under $1,000 plus about 2-3 years to get the pay grade up. A responsible, hard-working individual should be able to make $40K their first year, $50K their second, and $60K their third, though it kind of tops out there unless you get into specialized hauling. (Note that a friend of mine at the same company used to make $70K, but I went home nearly every weekend, where he'd say out 3-4 weeks at a time.)

For an airline pilot to make $60K a year, they first need to spend the dough to get their private, instrument, commercial, and flight instructor tickets and their first 250 hours. We'll assume that they bust their butt and get this done in a year. Figuring on the cheap side at $100/hr for the airplane and $30/hr for dual, you're looking at $30,000 or more. Then, you have to spend, say, 3 years/1200 hours or so as a CFI, making about $10/hr. Then you have to get a job with a **** regional like Great Lakes so you can start building up multi and turbine time (I picked Great Lakes because they're known as a place to go to get a quick upgrade to captain so you can get some turbine PIC). So you spend a year as a B1900 FO (remember, you get to serve drinks and do safety briefings too in this role, no FA on a 1900) and make $16K. Your second year, you upgrade to captain and make $29K. Now, you have enough time you can go to a bigger regional like Pinnacle and fly jets - But you're back into the right seat making $21K, and it looks like they're running about a 4-year upgrade cycle there now. You put your time in and finally upgrade to the left seat, but after 10 years you've made a cumulative $135K and your buddy who's a truck driver is well over a half million. A few years later, you finally get your dream job at the major (I arbitrarily picked American) - And it's back into the right seat, with upgrades coming VERY slowly (According to airlinepilotcentral, the most junior American captain was hired in 1992 - 18 years ago!) and pay rates dropping again.

So, the net amount of money made after each year looks like this:
Driver Pilot
+$39K -$30K
+$89K -$26K
$149K -$22K
$209K -$18K (Get into B1900 right seat)
$269K -$ 2K (Get into B1900 left seat)
$329K $27K (to the RJ right seat)
$389K $48K
$449K $72K
$509K $102K
$569K $135K (get into RJ left seat)
$629K $197K
$689K $261K
$749K $327K (Get to major right seat)
$809K $362K
$869K $439K
$929K $531K
$989K $626K
$1.05M $723K
$1.11M $823K (Let's upgrade to 767 and accelerate this process...)
$1.17M $934K
$1.23M $1.047M
$1.29M $1.164M
$1.35M $1.283M
$1.41M $1.404M
$1.47M $1.526M


So - It took 25 years for the pilot to catch up in cumulative earnings, and most of that was towards the end. If the truck driver invested their money wisely, especially since they had discretionary income almost right away, they could still be miles ahead in terms of net worth.

And all that is assuming that everything goes right - That you never work for a company that goes under or gets merged with someone else (with potentially unfavorable merging of the seniority list), you never get furloughed, etc.

However, in that time the pilot has been responsible for the lives of a LOT of people: The number of flight students is negligible, but figure 1,000 1-hour legs a year in the regionals, 400 2.5-hour legs a year in the 737 and 250 4-hour legs a year in the 767 adds up to over 1.1 million passengers. It just doesn't seem quite right in comparison to a truck driver, does it?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If so many are providing a service for free, there probably is not much of a market for those who charge for that same service.

There's no disputing that - But those low-timers who will do it for free are attracted because "free" is still at least $100/hour more than they've been "getting paid" to fly - IE, they've been paying at least $100/hr and free sounds like a REALLY good deal in comparison. But they're only hurting themselves in the long run.

 

[RyanShort1]

Just for the record, if you are the aircraft owner, and you want to use a freebie pilot, that's your call, and I don't blame you for the choice, though I may think it unwise. Also, if you're a starving CFI or newbie pilot, I can see your point of view and appreciate your love for flying and gratitude for the flight time opportunity.
I'm no lover of unions and not about to join one. I DO believe in the free market and economy. That said, you need to learn to be a business man and think ahead of the consequences of your actions. If you were a soap manufacturer, and all you ever did was give it away for free to people, sooner or later, folks would run you dry of money all the while hurting the responsible soap manufacturers who were charging for their products. You may have the best soap in the world, but if you don't put a value on it, you will eventually run out of money and go out of business. You would also raise the ire of all the other manufacturers who suffered from you folly in the meanwhile.
All I'm saying is that in the long run, your choice is probably not best for the future of the profession you profess to love. Agreeing to do it for free sends a message that your labor and investment in training is essentially valueless for the purpose of feeding a family. That's a bad thing for the long term health of the profession. I for one would like to be able to be confident that I could support a family while providing GOOD flight instruction to my clients for the next 25-30 years, if God would allow me to. In order to do that, I, and other instructors like me, need to be able to demand at least a minimum standard of pay. Your choice to work for free tells others that there is no such value.

Ryan

 

[n266bj]

I just paid $300 a day plus expenses. Seems reasonable for someone I trust.

I understand everyone wants to "get a deal" but it amazes me how tight some aircraft owners are when it comes to spending money on their aircraft and paying for related services.

 

[wabower]

The only way they can be hurt in the long run is if they are dumb enough to hang around the airport thinking they can make a decent living. If they "wake up and smell the coffee" as Abby once advised, they will go find a career with a future of something other than Ramen noodles and junky old cars.

They could be hurt

There's no disputing that - But those low-timers who will do it for free are attracted because "free" is still at least $100/hour more than they've been "getting paid" to fly - IE, they've been paying at least $100/hr and free sounds like a REALLY good deal in comparison. But they're only hurting themselves in the long run.

 

[gismo]

I couldn't find a poll choice I could agree with. A "fair price" has to be "fair" to both parties. While I can understand the frustration of someone wishing for a living wage for doing something that some of the "competition" might perform for free or at a compensation level that's well below their expectations/desires, such wishes are never going to have any positive effect on their situation. And IMO, calling someone who sees value to themselves in providing ferry services for less "unprofessional" isn't going to help either. This is really all about supply and demand, not the "professional" obligation of the up and coming wannabes to those slightly ahead of them experience wise.

A better choice would be for the "professional" ferry pilot would be to seek ways to improve the demand for his/her specific capabilities. If you justly feel that you are better qualified for the job in a way that would offer a material advantage to a potential customer then you should be able to "sell" that advantage to the customer by convincing them your offer is indeed the better one even though the contracted daily compensation is higher. If you can't then you really can't expect the customers to pay more simply because you "deserve" it due to expenses you've accrued becoming capable of performing the service.

For example, are you truly going to be more likely to complete the mission safely without harm to the airplane than someone with less experience? Can you manage to fly the trip for considerably less expense? Is the owner likely to benefit from your more "professional" operating methods? If so you must find a way to make this apparent to the customers, if not you are simply overqualified and shouldn't expect a "fair price" from your perspective.

If we were talking about predatory pricing where the underpriced offerings were intended to remove the "fair priced" competition and create a sort of monopoly, at which point the undercutting provider would take advantage of the new lack of competition by raising prices to the former level or higher, a cry of "unfair" would be most appropriate, but that's clearly not the case here.

Bottom line: the value of your work product isn't directly related to your cost achieving your current "professional" status nor is it necessarily related to your responsibilities on the job. It's truly and solely the result of what value that product has to it's consumer which in turn is greatly affected by the cost of your competition.

 

[Everskyward]

I couldn't find a poll choice I could agree with. A "fair price" has to be "fair" to both parties.

Maybe "fair" isn't the correct word, but there is an average going price for various airplanes which I posted in this link. Obviously some owners might not be willing to pay that much and some pilots might be able to negotiate more, but at least it's a starting point. Otherwise someone might not have any clue what to even shoot for.

 

[gismo]

Maybe "fair" isn't the correct word, but there is an average going price for various airplanes which I posted in this link. Obviously some owners might not be willing to pay that much and some pilots might be able to negotiate more, but at least it's a starting point. Otherwise someone might not have any clue what to even shoot for.

An average price is completely logical, but the discussion seemed to be leaning heavily towards the "fairness" aspects. If I ever sign up for a ferry flight, I'll be likely to use the data in your link as a starting point (and likely go up or down from their depending on the value of my time at the moment and the potential entertainment of the flight.

 

[Everskyward]

An average price is completely logical, but the discussion seemed to be leaning heavily towards the "fairness" aspects.

I see what you are saying and agree with you. Whether we like it or not, in this country, pay is determined by what someone can negotiate either individually or collectively. If we went by what is "fair" how would this happen?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/artic...ey_than_all_9_Supreme_Court_Justices_Combined

Judith Sheindlin, notoriously known as being the tempermental television judge Judge Judy, is worth an estimated $95 million dollars. She currently has a $100 million, 4-year contract that she signed in 2004 which makes her #13 on the list of the highest paid women in television. This t.v. judge makes about 14x what all 9 Supreme Court Justices do-- combined, that is. Currently salary for the Chief Justice is ~202,900/yr, while Associate Justices make around $194,200/yr. ​

 

[BenZwebner]

An average price is completely logical, but the discussion seemed to be leaning heavily towards the "fairness" aspects. If I ever sign up for a ferry flight, I'll be likely to use the data in your link as a starting point (and likely go up or down from their depending on the value of my time at the moment and the potential entertainment of the flight.

Well, I wasnt specifically looking at Fairness. I was looking for feedback to see what the general public felt was a reasonable cost of hiring a ferry pilot. Perhaps the word "Fair" wasnt the best choice.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Seems fair to me. Judge Judy is gone the second she doesn't produce ratings, SC justices have to die to lose their jobs. There is nothing fair about paying people, with tax money, salaries competitive with private sector celebrities. Besides any of the SC justices are free to resign and try to get a TV show judgeship. I'd love to see one try. Judy ain't much to look at, but damn compared to Kagan she is hot

I see what you are saying and agree with you. Whether we like it or not, in this country, pay is determined by what someone can negotiate either individually or collectively. If we went by what is "fair" how would this happen?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/artic...ey_than_all_9_Supreme_Court_Justices_Combined

 

[deltafox]

I recommend "The Savvy Flight Instructor" by Greg Brown...pg 159 "Charging for your services". Summarized, you are a professional, charge what you think you are worth.

 

[ClimbnSink]

They don't have a problem with what they are charging they have a problem with what other pilots are charging.

I recommend "The Savvy Flight Instructor" by Greg Brown...pg 159 "Charging for your services". Summarized, you are a professional, charge what you think you are worth.

 

[gismo]

They don't have a problem with what they are charging they have a problem with what other pilots are charging.

And unfortunately there's virtually nothing they can do about that. The only hope is to use some decent marketing techniques to prove to their potential customers that the service they provide is worth the fees they charge.

Personally, I don't think $250-300 per day plus expenses is unreasonable, though I'd consider myself a fool if I paid that when I could get virtually the same service for half that. But if I thought the half price provider was of "lesser quality" I'd have to evaluate whether or not the quality was sufficient to the task at hand and decide if the cost/benefit made the "higher quality" provider a better deal for me.

BMW sells products that are clearly superior in many ways to those offered by Kia who sells their products for considerably less money. If my automotive needs/wants were in tune with what BMW builds I'd be dissatisfied with a Kia even though it might cost less than half of a similar sized BMW. But OTOH, if I simply needed basic transportation and had no desire or need for higher performance, handling, and luxury I'd be stupid to pay the extra cost of a BMW. And if someone like Audi came along and produced something as fun to drive as a BMW but sold it for significantly less I'd have to seriously consider that option and I wouldn't expect BMW to whine about their competitor's "unprofessional" behavior in accepting less profit than BMW management felt was appropriate.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Maybe "fair" isn't the correct word, but there is an average going price for various airplanes which I posted in this link. Obviously some owners might not be willing to pay that much and some pilots might be able to negotiate more, but at least it's a starting point. Otherwise someone might not have any clue what to even shoot for.

Hmm. It appears I've been on the low end of the ranges there! Maybe I need to charge more.

 

[flyersfan31]

No, it really doesn't.

If you'll ferry a 172 for free, that means there's another, slightly more experienced pilot out there who's not making any money.

If that pilot decides he has to work for free to "get the experience to move up" maybe he'll decide it's OK to move that Seneca for free so he can get some multi time to help him move "up," so there's an even more experienced pilot who's not making any money...

... And on and on, up the food chain, until people have to work for free for so long to get to the one job at the top of the food chain that they may never get, that they decide this crazy business isn't worth it any more and they move on to something else, and we lose experienced pilots.

We don't have great pilots in the regionals in many cases, because they're still working for far less than they're worth to try to get left seat in a heavy at the majors someday.

And whose fault is that?

I'll play devil's advocate. I know the concept of taking less than market to build hours infuriates some ATPs, but...

If the industry didn't run on hours accrued, people wouldn't do crazy stuff like fly for cheap. The seniority system has been in place since the dawn of airlines, I know. It's not a great system, but it is THE system. As such, I think anyone who wants to break into said system is entitled to do so in any legal means at their disposal.

You get what you pay for. Ben, if you act like a professional, and present yourself professionally, you'll get a fair rate, and word of mouth advertising. You don't want to accept the bottom-feeder jobs, nor is there any harm in not taking them. Do they take some work from others? Sure. Kia steals sales from Ford too. That's business. When the Kia breaks down by the side of the road, that owner is probably thinking "shoulda bought the Ford." There's nothing inherently wrong with Kia selling cars.

I know if I wanted my Matrix ferried somewhere, I wouldn't sign up the kid with the cardboard sign saying "Will Ferry For Food." I wouldn't punch him in the face, but I wouldn't hire him. Someone else might. So it goes.

 

[Henning]

With the new ATP for right seat rule at the regionals, this (low time pilots flying for free) is going to increase, and the pay for bottom tier jobs is going to decrease.

 

[wabower]

Isn't "because of the law of supply and demand" the answer to any and all questions about pilot careers, compensation, yada yada yada?

If you accept the premise that nothing has changed during the past 40 years, why do people still sign up for this crap?

Pilots like to think of themselves as somewhat intelligent creatures, what with their ability to fly an aeroplane and all that. Can anybody correlate their decision to enter this industry with any IQ number higher than 2 digits?

 

[gismo]

Isn't "because of the law of supply and demand" the answer to any and all questions about pilot careers, compensation, yada yada yada?

If you accept the premise that nothing has changed during the past 40 years, why do people still sign up for this crap?

Pilots like to think of themselves as somewhat intelligent creatures, what with their ability to fly an aeroplane and all that. Can anybody correlate their decision to enter this industry with any IQ number higher than 2 digits?

I disagree (as usual). First of all, what does IQ have to do with a completely emotional decision? And secondly, pilot's need a decent IQ to help rationalize their emotional decision to enter a career that most existing players have begun to loathe.

 

[wabower]

Guessed I hadn't approached it from that angle. I can then accept your premise that they really are as dumb as it appears. No further questions.

QUOTE=gismo;630013]I disagree (as usual). First of all, what does IQ have to do with a completely emotional decision? And secondly, pilot's need a decent IQ to help rationalize their emotional decision to enter a career that most existing players have begun to loathe.[/QUOTE]

 

[shenanigans]

With the new ATP for right seat rule at the regionals, this (low time pilots flying for free) is going to increase, and the pay for bottom tier jobs is going to decrease.

That was my thought too. And it seems that the lower pay at the bottom ranks eventually drags everyone else's pay down as well. Yet since that rule has been proposed/enacted, I've heard from numerous airline pilots who think the rule will "save the industry". I guess time will tell.

On topic, 200-300 is probably what i would think is fair. But honestly, if a well qualified person offered to do it for less, I don't see a compelling reason to pay more. At that point, it's the job of the ferry pilot asking more to convince me that I should pay a premium for his services. If he can't give me a valid reason to pay more, I won't. It's not my job to subsidize the pilot profession.

 

[Henning]

Isn't "because of the law of supply and demand" the answer to any and all questions about pilot careers, compensation, yada yada yada?

If you accept the premise that nothing has changed during the past 40 years, why do people still sign up for this crap?

Pilots like to think of themselves as somewhat intelligent creatures, what with their ability to fly an aeroplane and all that. Can anybody correlate their decision to enter this industry with any IQ number higher than 2 digits?

What about aviation requires more than a double digit IQ anymore? Follow the magenta line. Heck, the dumber they are the more likely they'll be happy as career pilots. As for actually flying the airplane, having a feel for energy and intelligence are unrelated issues.

 

[Henning]

That was my thought too. And it seems that the lower pay at the bottom ranks eventually drags everyone else's pay down as well. Yet since that rule has been proposed/enacted, I've heard from numerous airline pilots who think the rule will "save the industry". I guess time will tell.

I don't see how. It really won't be much different than 20 years ago when you needed 1200hrs and 200+ME just to apply for the right seat of a commuter, the pay was just as bad and there were a lot of people buying into the right seat by paying for their training at FSI, and still there were ten applicants for every job.

As for ferry work, I typically charge $400 day + expenses. If you don't want to pay that, make an offer, maybe I'll accept, maybe I'll give you someone else's phone number who will do it for what you want to pay. Heck, I may just do it for free if the situation is right and I see equivalent value like it saves me from having to ride the airlines to somewhere I want to go anyway. One way or another it'll get sorted out. I don't begrudge guys doing it for free. Reality is that people looking for "free" aren't typically my kind of clients. They're often my friends, but not clients. The other side of the coin is that sometimes everyone needs to catch a break, both the person who needs the plane moved and the pilot who needs some more time. Just do your best, help people out and don't be a hater. Things come around, just keep good karma....

 

[Everskyward]

Hmm. It appears I've been on the low end of the ranges there! Maybe I need to charge more.

For the higher end airplanes I think those numbers presuppose you have a type rating and it's not your first time in the airplane.

 

[TMetzinger]

Thats what I charge. $250...

The thing is I never asked anyone about that price so I just wanted to see what people thought was fair.

I just raised from $250 (set two years ago) to $300 per day. That doesn't mean I'm getting a lot of work, but it does reflect how much I want to earn if I'm going to cancel a day of my "normal" life. The folks who've hired me to pilot for them give me repeat business when they have it, so they must appreciate the value I bring.

Ferrying little planes is generally not something that owners want to pay "real" money for unless there are insurance factors or other complications (like your transatlantic job), or unless it's being paid for with "other people's money".

The most hassle-free ferries I've done have been when I'm hired by a new owner to bring their airplane out to them. Someone who's spent 5 or 6 figures on an airplane generally doesn't worry about an additional fee of a thousand or less.

The worst ones are the owners who want me to fly their airplane for them on a ferry permit so it can get required maintenance. In most cases their lack of resources are the root of the maintenance issue as well as their objection to my fees.

The final complicating factor is folks who offer to ferry airplanes who don't even have a commercial certificate, and the way they either use or invent a relationship with the owner to claim they're not flying "for hire" is a source of sour amusement. I know of one case where a guy had his "buddy" fly his airplane out for him, and the "buddy" lost control on landing, went off the runway, and tore up a wingtip pretty badly in a snow/ice bank. I don't know if the FAA got involved, but the owner ended up paying for repairs out of pocket, either because he decided not to try and file a claim or because the insurance company denied it.

The best advice I've gotten and I'll pass along is to not sell yourself short, to keep providing a high level of service, and that you will eventually build a reputation and find folks who will be happy to have you at your price.

 

[TMetzinger]

We use three different pilots to ferry Malibu, Jetprop and Meridains for us. They charge $350.00 a day plus expences. I think it's a fair charge for their experience. I know that the customer will receive the aircraft in perfect shape and that the pilot will present himself in a professional manner. I will never complain about their bills that they send to us. When it comes to the pick-up and delivery of the kids they really go above and beyond.

Kevin

Well said!

 

[gismo]

I don't see how. It really won't be much different than 20 years ago when you needed 1200hrs and 200+ME just to apply for the right seat of a commuter, the pay was just as bad and there were a lot of people buying into the right seat by paying for their training at FSI, and still there were ten applicants for every job.

As for ferry work, I typically charge $400 day + expenses. If you don't want to pay that, make an offer, maybe I'll accept, maybe I'll give you someone else's phone number who will do it for what you want to pay. Heck, I may just do it for free if the situation is right and I see equivalent value like it saves me from having to ride the airlines to somewhere I want to go anyway. One way or another it'll get sorted out. I don't begrudge guys doing it for free. Reality is that people looking for "free" aren't typically my kind of clients. They're often my friends, but not clients. The other side of the coin is that sometimes everyone needs to catch a break, both the person who needs the plane moved and the pilot who needs some more time. Just do your best, help people out and don't be a hater. Things come around, just keep good karma....

+1