What is a cloud?

poadeleted21

poadeleted21

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
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Maybe I'm supposed to know this but I don't and always wondered.

Can I go VFR barreling through that small whitish puffy little thing hanging out by its lonesome on a cavu day? You know one of those that you're only going to be "in" for a second or two? Or Do I have to play dodgeball while descending through a 50' thick scattered layer?
 
My CFI Said "If you can see through it, it is not a cloud."
I have often wanted to punch through one of those little things then I start to think "What if another guy on the opposite side is thinking the same thing"
 
I expect the "Real" answer will be if you can see it, it is a cloud and standard VFR rules apply.
 
You have 9K posts on an aviation board and don't know if you need to stay away from clouds when VFR? :dunno: Dodgeball if being legal.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I expect the "Real" answer will be if you can see it, it is a cloud and standard VFR rules apply.
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I learned to fly in montana. It's either a solid overcast layer or 100 miles visibility with no humidity in sight. Here in coastal GA/SC the humidity is so thick you can see it even on the clearest days. The entire horizon looks like a cloud deck. I usually climb above it for no other reason than to not feel like I'm 3 minutes away from flying into a cloud layer.
 
bartmc said:
I learned to fly in montana. It's either a solid overcast layer or 100 miles visibility with no humidity in sight. Here in coastal GA/SC the humidity is so thick you can see it even on the clearest days. The entire horizon looks like a cloud deck. I usually climb above it for no other reason than to not feel like I'm 3 minutes away from flying into a cloud layer.
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I get that. I fly in Dallas and even last night, the Haze was so thick I kept thinking "Am I legal?"

Seemed to be based on sun direction, Flying toward the sun, I couldn't see crap in front of me. Behind me, I could see for miles.

And in Dallas for what it's worth, that layer is always a little brown :(
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My CFI Said "If you can see through it, it is not a cloud."
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I don't remember being your instructor, but that's what I say, too. I figure if I can see something three miles three miles away through it, I've got my 91.155-required three miles vis and I'm good to go.
 
Cloud. 1. A visible collection of particles of water or ice suspended in the air, usually at an elevation above the earth's surface.

Dictionary definition, but it's a place to start. No mention of opacity, size, altitude, etc.

Little wisps of stuff that you can see through are still clouds, imho. Ignore the elephant in the room that is summer haze.. that's like flying inside one bigass cloud.
 
bartmc said:
I'm asking what the legal definition of "a cloud" is.
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My instructor said if it looks like a cloud, then it is prob. a cloud. :D I have also been told what the others said as far as seeing through them. I think the cloud clearances have a lot more meaning to me now that I am IFR training. The thought of some VFR guy playing in the clouds is kinda scary..

I have never done it, but I know a guy that knows a guy whom has a girlfriend that was married to a guy that flew thru a cloud in the sky that was all by itself surrounded by nothing but blue and he apparently made it in and out the other side. :eek: (I know what you're thinking... I thought he was crazy too..) :D
 
They're the big fluffy things in the sky, but that's not important right now :D
 
I thought it was all industrial haze
r2up39.jpg
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't remember being your instructor, but that's what I say, too. I figure if I can see something three miles three miles away through it, I've got my 91.155-required three miles vis and I'm good to go.
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That's what I was told, too. In some place, like Hawaii, apparently you'd never be able to fly vfr without that definition.
 
bartmc said:
I'm asking what the legal definition of "a cloud" is.
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There isn't any.

The point of cloud clearances is to avoid having IFR traffic blast out of it faster than you can react (hence minimal clearance in Class B and big clearance in Class E above 10000 where the speed limit goes away). So, the very common cloud = opacity criterion would seem very defensible.
 
In the Bahamas a cloud is defined as 'visible water vapor suspended in air above 8,000 feet MSL' (at 7K Miami will give you a clearance)
 
What is a cloud? Something I'm going to be able to fly through to get on top (hopefully).
 
The official FAA definition of a cloud is the same as the official FAA definition of a congested area - something they will determine after the fact.

If there is an accident, complaint, or youtube video to hang you with, it's a cloud.
 
bartmc said:
Maybe I'm supposed to know this but I don't and always wondered.

Can I go VFR barreling through that small whitish puffy little thing hanging out by its lonesome on a cavu day? You know one of those that you're only going to be "in" for a second or two? Or Do I have to play dodgeball while descending through a 50' thick scattered layer?
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Clouds are opaque. If you can't see through that layer you'll have to play dodgeball.
 
Mistake Not... said:
Cloud. 1. A visible collection of particles of water or ice suspended in the air, usually at an elevation above the earth's surface....SNIP....
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If the cloud were below the earth's surface, wouldn't that be like cumulogranite? At least it would be ground.
 
If it obscures something, it's a cloud. Little puffballs don't hide terrain or traffic.
 
bartmc said:
Maybe I'm supposed to know this but I don't and always wondered.

Can I go VFR barreling through that small whitish puffy little thing hanging out by its lonesome on a cavu day? You know one of those that you're only going to be "in" for a second or two? Or Do I have to play dodgeball while descending through a 50' thick scattered layer?
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You get those clouds over ARW all the time . . . and HXD . . .a thin little layer 500' up.

If you can see through it? Generally no - because can see and avoid. If you cannot see and avoid then you need to avoid in order to see. :eek::eek:
 
These guys are not flying like they are on an IFR flight plan..


 
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These videos bring up what may be a dumb question but here goes.
These folks are all violating the rules but having fun.

If you have IFR rating, can you "play" in the clouds like that?
I assume on an IFR flight plan, you have specific routes you are expected to fly which may take you through those layers.

Can one tell ATC "We re going to maneuver in this area for a bit" and do this type of joy riding through the clouds?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
These videos bring up what may be a dumb question but here goes.
These folks are all violating the rules but having fun.

If you have IFR rating, can you "play" in the clouds like that?
I assume on an IFR flight plan, you have specific routes you are expected to fly which may take you through those layers.

Can one tell ATC "We re going to maneuver in this area for a bit" and do this type of joy riding through the clouds?
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Yeppers. They will give you a block altitude.
 
IIRC someone over on the red board got busted as a result of similar videos...

If you are going to flaunt the rules, don't post it to youtube.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
These videos bring up what may be a dumb question but here goes.
These folks are all violating the rules but having fun.

If you have IFR rating, can you "play" in the clouds like that?
I assume on an IFR flight plan, you have specific routes you are expected to fly which may take you through those layers.

Can one tell ATC "We re going to maneuver in this area for a bit" and do this type of joy riding through the clouds?
Click to expand...

You can with a proper IFR clearance. “Cleared to fly northeast quadrant of Metropolis VORTAC within four zero mile radius, maintain block altitude four thousand through one zero thousand.”
 
Probably the most disappointing thing I learned when I was becoming a pilot was that I can't play in the clouds, or even get close to them. I hate it. It's about as painful as a lap dance.
 
JasonM said:
These guys are not flying like they are on an IFR flight plan.
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Nobody has mentioned Class G, have they?

I seem to recall that it's not expressly prohibited if they are in Class G, they are instrument rated, and the plane is equipped.
 
NoHeat said:
Nobody has mentioned Class G, have they?

I seem to recall that it's not expressly prohibited if they are in Class G, they are instrument rated, and the plane is equipped.
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You are correct that it is not expressly prohibited, but the FAA and NTSB agree that operating IFR in the shallow G-space between the surface of an airport with instrument procedures and the overlying E-space is careless/reckless without an ATC clearance either into or out of that overlying E-space. See Administrator v. Murphy for details.
 
What about where it goes to 14,500 in the Upper Peninsula and out west?
 
EdFred said:
What about where it goes to 14,500 in the Upper Peninsula and out west?
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As long as you can comply with all the other rules (minimum IFR altitude per 91.177, minimum altitude per 91.119, able to get into VMC before descending below the 91.177 altitude at your destination, etc), there is nothing I've seen which says that would be unacceptable to the FAA.
 
EdFred said:
Yeppers. They will give you a block altitude.
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That's what my primary CFI did when she wanted me to see some IMC. We got a block altitude so we could climb or descend and stay inside a cloud layer.
 
JasonM said:
These guys are not flying like they are on an IFR flight plan..



Click to expand...

This one shows the tail number in the beginning (N4352R) and at 3:08 clearly shows a 1200 squawk code.
 
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