What if your mission is futzing?

valittu

valittu

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jul 5, 2013
Messages
136
Location
Fredericksburg, Va
Display Name
Display name:
Marvin
I'm Marvin and I'm new to aviation. I've been lurking on this site for a while and am fascinated at the depth of knowledge that can be found if one digs enough. After a great deal of soul searching, I've decided I want to become a Sport Pilot. My only goal is to futz around the pattern. That could change, but it will never include travel beyond maybe a 200 mile radius or passengers of any kind. My budget is $30k cash with an operating budget of about $400 monthly. I'm open to tiedown or even partnering in a plane but there's not a lot of LSAs in the area, so I'm thinking along the lines of a Champ, Chief or Ercoupe. I have a "red tape" issue that's not worth the hoops I's have to jump through to get a medical or else a 150 would be on my wish list. Oh, and I'm not afraid of experimentals. I'd be open to one if I could find an A&P who would help me keep it safe. As I understand it, that can be difficult.

I'm all ears.
 
I think you have the list well in hand, pick an old two seater that you can fly SP and you can afford and just have fun
 
Welcome to POA

Your "missiom" is what works for me.

I went the E-AB route to minimize issues with parts and the need for an A&P, but I've been spinning wrenches for 47 years...

I had no trouble finding an A&P to do the condition inspections. Ask around the airport - you want someone willing to work with you even if you get a type certificated aircraft.
 
valittu said:
[...]I've decided I want to become a Sport Pilot.
[...]it will never include travel beyond maybe a 200 mile radius or passengers of any kind. My budget is $30k cash with an operating budget of about $400 monthly.
[...]I'm not afraid of experimentals.
Click to expand...

Ultralights would fit those requirements.
 
BillTIZ said:
Pretty soon you'll find nearby small country air shows or pancake breakfast fly-ins to attend.
Click to expand...

I have a buddy in Orange who's been raving about the flying circus. I'm not big on daredevil stunts. Kinda hoping to make it through this life and not witness a plane crash. Pancake breakfasts I can do.
 
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Futzing is fun. Your budget would cover a significant number of ways to do that.
 
Similar 'mission' for me. I'm looking at Luscombes when it comes to the buying stage. For something newer I'd consider a Kitfox, or maybe a used Sonex.
 
valittu said:
From what I've read, ultralights come in two flavors: Actual airplane and dodgy contraption. Point out the actual airplanes and I'll consider those.
Click to expand...

Preceptor N3 Pup.

The company came to a somewhat unsatisfactory end, but it is a cute little airplane.
 
I like the old ercoupe it's a fun little aircraft and will fit your budget .you can fly low ,slow and with the canopy open.good fuel economy .
 
All of the category 3 planes on the ultralight page listed seem cool, especially that Preceptor Pup and Carlson Sparrow. I guess I should add 4 stroke engine to my needs list. I've heard stories about 2 stroke dependability, and that just may keep me out of ultralights. The Ercoupe was my first choice because I could tie it down if it has metal wings. I never considered the Luscombe. I didn't think they were LSA. Something to think about.
 
I think Baltimore Bill has just what you are looking for (following is from the Purple Board).

A recent change in lifestyle has just convinced me to put my ‘Coupe on the market. The airplane is a 1946 415-C Ercoupe, is Light Sport eligible and has the 1320# Gross Weight STC installed.

ercoupe-nose-for-sale-400x200.jpg

This may be one of the nicer 'Coupes in the Mid-Atlantic, currently located at 0W3, Harford County Airport, Churchville, MD. TTAE 2865. SMOH: 860. Just completed an extensive annual w/ new gear donuts, new tires and the last two (expensive) ADs done. Compressions 74, 72, 78 76 Wings recovered w/ Ceconite in May, 2011. Cleveland brakes, 35 amp generator, spin-on oil filter, Tanis heater, new nose bowl, recent prop overhaul. New/unused Bruce wing covers. Logs since new.

$22,500.

Visit my website - TakeoffsAreOptional.com - for more details and many pictures. Facing eye surgery - may negotiate a bit for quick sale.

N2367H-takeoff-0W3-01-400x266.jpg

__________________
- Bill
PPL - ASEL - Tailwheel
 
valittu said:
I'm Marvin and I'm new to aviation. I've been lurking on this site for a while and am fascinated at the depth of knowledge that can be found if one digs enough. After a great deal of soul searching, I've decided I want to become a Sport Pilot. My only goal is to futz around the pattern. That could change, but it will never include travel beyond maybe a 200 mile radius or passengers of any kind. My budget is $30k cash with an operating budget of about $400 monthly. I'm open to tiedown or even partnering in a plane but there's not a lot of LSAs in the area, so I'm thinking along the lines of a Champ, Chief or Ercoupe. I have a "red tape" issue that's not worth the hoops I's have to jump through to get a medical or else a 150 would be on my wish list. Oh, and I'm not afraid of experimentals. I'd be open to one if I could find an A&P who would help me keep it safe. As I understand it, that can be difficult.

I'm all ears.
Click to expand...

Look into Pt 103 Ultralights if you have no desire to haul passengers; no license or medical required and aircraft are available for $5000.
 
Older Kitfox with folding wings and an enclosed trailer so you can take it home with you and save hangar rent.
 
My 85-year-old dad is a big fan of his Rans S4. Seems ideal for futzing to me.
 
valittu said:
All of the category 3 planes on the ultralight page listed seem cool, especially that Preceptor Pup and Carlson Sparrow. I guess I should add 4 stroke engine to my needs list. I've heard stories about 2 stroke dependability, and that just may keep me out of ultralights. The Ercoupe was my first choice because I could tie it down if it has metal wings. I never considered the Luscombe. I didn't think they were LSA. Something to think about.
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Carful, most (everyone I ever looked at) Coupe with metal wings had a gross weight over 1320.

Fabric and outside can go together quite well actually.
 
Finding a Luscombe that doesn't have the 1400 lb max gross is like finding hen's teeth.

Beware the potential for an Ercoupe to become a maintenance money pit unless you find a premium example... many of the old light sport eligible -C and -CD models are beginning to turn up with corrosion issues... two of them at my home airport did, costing the owners lengthy and expensive repairs.
 
somorris said:
I think Baltimore Bill has just what you are looking for (following is from the Purple Board).

A recent change in lifestyle has just convinced me to put my ‘Coupe on the market. The airplane is a 1946 415-C Ercoupe, is Light Sport eligible and has the 1320# Gross Weight STC installed.

ercoupe-nose-for-sale-400x200.jpg

This may be one of the nicer 'Coupes in the Mid-Atlantic, currently located at 0W3, Harford County Airport, Churchville, MD. TTAE 2865. SMOH: 860. Just completed an extensive annual w/ new gear donuts, new tires and the last two (expensive) ADs done. Compressions 74, 72, 78 76 Wings recovered w/ Ceconite in May, 2011. Cleveland brakes, 35 amp generator, spin-on oil filter, Tanis heater, new nose bowl, recent prop overhaul. New/unused Bruce wing covers. Logs since new.

$22,500.

Visit my website - TakeoffsAreOptional.com - for more details and many pictures. Facing eye surgery - may negotiate a bit for quick sale.

N2367H-takeoff-0W3-01-400x266.jpg

__________________
- Bill
PPL - ASEL - Tailwheel
Click to expand...

Don't bother looking at it.
I'm buying this one!
 
somorris said:
I think Baltimore Bill has just what you are looking for (following is from the Purple Board).

A recent change in lifestyle has just convinced me to put my ‘Coupe on the market. The airplane is a 1946 415-C Ercoupe, is Light Sport eligible and has the 1320# Gross Weight STC installed.

ercoupe-nose-for-sale-400x200.jpg

This may be one of the nicer 'Coupes in the Mid-Atlantic, currently located at 0W3, Harford County Airport, Churchville, MD. TTAE 2865. SMOH: 860. Just completed an extensive annual w/ new gear donuts, new tires and the last two (expensive) ADs done. Compressions 74, 72, 78 76 Wings recovered w/ Ceconite in May, 2011. Cleveland brakes, 35 amp generator, spin-on oil filter, Tanis heater, new nose bowl, recent prop overhaul. New/unused Bruce wing covers. Logs since new.

$22,500.

Visit my website - TakeoffsAreOptional.com - for more details and many pictures. Facing eye surgery - may negotiate a bit for quick sale.

N2367H-takeoff-0W3-01-400x266.jpg

__________________
- Bill
PPL - ASEL - Tailwheel
Click to expand...

Wow, what a beautiful plane. Can you tie down a fabric wing plane? How does one go about finding a 3rd party "expert" to look at a plane like this for me? I don't know the first thing about checking for corrosion and what I don't want is a money pit.
 
Good info about 'coupes here: http://www.ercoupe.org/why_buy_a_coupe.htm

That one that Shepherd has laid claims on... if anyone keeps a 'coupe like that one outside in the elements in a tie-down spot instead of inside a nice dry hangar, they'd deserve to get beaten severely about the head and neck with a big stick!
 
valittu said:
Wow, what a beautiful plane. Can you tie down a fabric wing plane? How does one go about finding a 3rd party "expert" to look at a plane like this for me? I don't know the first thing about checking for corrosion and what I don't want is a money pit.
Click to expand...

Yes, you can tie it down, this isn't your grandpappy's linen covered plane
 
Skylane81E said:
Yes, you can tie it down, this isn't your grandpappy's linen covered plane
Click to expand...

The big problem with keeping Ercoupes outside in the weather is that there's some places inside the wings around the main spar attach points and the rear spars that tend to accumulate moisture and initiate corrosion where dissimilar metals are joined. Granted this issue is much worse with metal skinned wings than fabric covered ones, but still it's highly recommended to keep them hangared. :thumbsup:
 
Neal Howard said:
The big problem with keeping Ercoupes outside in the weather is that there's some places inside the wings around the main spar attach points and the rear spars that tend to accumulate moisture and initiate corrosion where dissimilar metals are joined. Granted this issue is much worse with metal skinned wings than fabric covered ones, but still it's highly recommended to keep them hangared. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Yep, the fabric however isn't a reason not to leave it out. Careful maintenance and corrosion prevention would go a long way as well
 
If all you want is to have fun, you owe it to yourself to take a flight in a trike (weight-shift control aircraft) before you commit. In my opinion, they're pretty much the funnest things you can fly. They're also cheap and easy to maintain.

On the down side, they're a bit on the slow side, so they're not very practical if you actually want to get somewhere; and they do take a bit more muscle to maneuver than an airplane does. You also freeze your 'nads off in the winter.

-Rich
 
I'd still get a Private Pilots license if I were you, even if you're only going to fly smaller planes, it's the training that matters.


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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"What about Light Sport? What are the differences between Sport Pilots and Private Pilots, Light Sport Aircraft and Standard Category Aircraft? Can't you save a lot of money by learning how to fly in a Light Sport aircraft--they say it only takes 20 hours! [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Lots of interest in Light Sport these days (Or is it Sport Light? Never can get that straight--early onset Alzheimer's? Hope not!). In fact, a lot of people are very excited and think LSA will revitalize low-budget fun flying. I hope they're right! I loves cheap flyin'! Cessna just announced their entry into the LSA wars, so they're taking it seriously, too. In fact, Cessna also announced they'll be introducing a whole new line of airplanes, so looks like interesting times ahead! Good! As for differences between Sport Pilots vs. Private Pilots and LS Aircraft vs. Standard Category aircraft, there are many, in fact its a pretty complex subject. For more info see http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/final_rule_synopsis.html. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]First, Sport Pilots vs. Private Pilots. FAA requirements specify what you need to do to get a Pilot Certificate and then, once you're a pilot, what airplanes you can fly, where and when. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The most important things are 1) Sport Pilots can only fly Light Sport Aircraft, which have lots of restrictions on size, performance and use--a VERY big restriction--and 2) you don't need to pass a medical exam to fly Light Sport Aircraft--if you have a current driver's license you're good to go. Good. No one has ever been able to establish a link between pilot performance or safety and medical exams anyway. Still, if you know you have a medical "deficiency" or have failed a FAA medical exam you are not eligible to fly Light Sport Aircraft, or any other aircraft. Glider pilots don't need medicals, either--or a driver's license. In fact, you can solo a glider at age 14![/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Private Pilots can fly LSA and Standard Category aircraft, Sport Pilots can only fly LSA[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]. Restricting yourself to LSA only is a pretty big restriction! A lot of old timers, fearing they might fail their next FAA medical exam, are opting for LSA so they can keep flying. I understand exactly how they feel. Hope I don't have to think about that for a long, long time. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What about training costs--are they lower for SP? Good question! L[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]et's talk about the cost of training, the instruction you need to learn to fly safely. Training costs first, then we'll talk about the cost of the airplanes.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]If you can learn to fly LSA in only 20 hours won't you save a bunch of money? [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It's true the training required by the FAA is somewhat less, mostly having to do with learning to fly in busier airspace, night flying and reduced solo time required before you can get your license, so that reduces the training required and should save you some money. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Trouble is, those are things you need to know. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The reduced solo flight requirement is the biggest part of the difference in the advertised (as opposed to the real) cost. Required solo flight training is the biggest difference between 40-hour PPL courses and the 35-hour courses, too. Listen closely, because nobody else is going to tell you this: Flying solo in a training environment is an important part of your flying education and shouldn't be dismissed lightly, whether we're talking SP or those 35-hour PP courses. You need the supervised solo experience before you can safely fly on your own and start carrying passengers. You don't get it (the FAA doesn't require it) in those 20-hour SP or 35-hour PP courses. Stupid and dangerous. All we're talking about here is getting a little solo flight experience under the supervision of your flight instructor before you can legally fly on your own or carry passengers. Doesn't that sound like a sensible thing to do? Learning to fly is all about getting experience, not just checking boxes on an FAA list. That's why almost no one learns in the minimum time specified by the feds, regardless of what their rules say. It's about common sense and safety.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Why would you want to skip ANY of that stuff, anyway? It's important![/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here's the biggest lie: If you look a little closer, beyond the advertising, except for the solo flight requirements you still have to do nearly all the same things for a SP license as for a Private Pilot certificate (all good stuff), but in less time! Can't be done! There is nothing magic about the way LSA's fly--they're still ariplanes![/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Learning to fly is about becoming comfortable in a new environment, understanding how this stuff works and learning to make an airplane behave the way YOU want it to. That takes time. Nothing wrong with that. Living takes time. Are you going to stop flying the day you get your license? No. You don't get a college degree the day you finish kindergarten, either.
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The 20-hour nonsense is just deceptive marketing baloney--the old bait and switch! We get enough of that in politics! The REAL cost isn't so outrageous that telling the truth would discourage people in the first place--so why lie about it? You don't stop flying the day you get your license anyway--you've just begun! Sheesh! J[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]ust because the new rules say you can learn to fly LSA in only 20 hours doesn't change the fact that it has always taken 50 hours or more, even though the rules have always said 35 or 40. Is there some SP magic going on here? No. Learning still takes time, regardless of the airplane you're flying.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What about the cost of the airplane? Now we're getting serious! Are LSA airplanes cheaper to fly? Maybe. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The most important factor in the cost of learning to fly--all flying, really--is the cost of the airplane. Be smart! Learn to fly in a good, simple airplane at a reasonable rate--like my beautiful Cessna 140! Only $80/hr. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Cheap, simple airplanes (did I mention my beautiful, sweet flyin' Cessna 140--ain't none nicer nowhere! Only $80/hr) CAN save you some serious money, whether standard category or LSA--GOOD! If you can fly a cheap LSA I say GO FOR IT! Why pay over $100/hr if you can fly for $80? Just be aware that if you pursue a Sport Pilot certificate in a LSA you'll be restricted to flying nothing but LSA. Is that what you want? What if you could fly a standard category airplane for the same cost as a LSA--or even LESS? Wouldn't that make more sense? Like my Cessna 140 for only $80! (yet another shameless plug!)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But, seriously, what about those LS Aircraft? Are they really cheaper to fly? Again, maybe.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Since aircraft purchase price is the most significant part of the cost of flying, what do these LSA cost? Are they cheaper to buy? [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Several aircraft already certificated in the Standard Category (Piper J-3 Cubs, some Luscombes, Aeronca Champs, Taylorcrafts, Ercoupes etc.) also qualify as Light Sport Aircraft. You can buy some of them for pretty reasonable prices, maybe as little as $15-$20K or even less. GO FOR IT! I highly recommend buying your own simple, cheap airplane as a good way to save money, maybe even make a little $$ when you sell it and have lots of good, cheap fun. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But there are NO cheap NEW airplanes, LSA or otherwise--that's the big hurdle lots of folks are hoping LSA will jump. Ainna gonna happen! Yes, there are lots of new LSA's coming on the market, but they're not cheap, unless you consider more than $100K cheap! (In which case I'd like to have a chat with you about a really terrific economic opportunity!) [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Many LSA are imported from Europe, where all this LSA stuff really started. Some are very interesting, technologically advanced and high-performance for the power--though FAA rules place many restrictions on performance for LSA in the U.S. I've had some nice chats with LS folks about costs. Although some are advertised for around $80K (and that's the bare naked no tires or motor teaser price--the real price is probably $100K or more), many are $130K-$150K or more! Don't know about you, but $80K and up is a lot of money to me. There's hardly an airplane been made that can't be had for $80K or (way) less used. In fact, you can buy several new US aircaft (Taylorcrafts, Champs etc.) that are certificated in the Standard Category--meaning none of the restrictions placed on LSA--for about the same price. Why aren't they getting the attention LSA are?[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The second most important factor is the cost of operation. Most two-place airplanes have about 100 horsepower. It takes about five (5) gallons of gas per hour to make 'em run. Avgas costs about $5/gallon today (May 2010), but even if you have to pay $6, it means the cost of operation is under $30/hr, more or less. Other stuff (oil, tires, maintenance, insurance etc.) adds maybe another $5 or $10 per hour, so say it all comes to about $35 or $40/hr. That's why buying your own airplane is the only way you can really save money and why the purchase price is such a big factor. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Hey! I do just fine charging $80/hr for my beautiful little Cessna 140 (none nicer nowhere--and there ain't never been no better fun flyin', cheap flyin' airplane ever been made nowhere!). The reason most flying schools charge so much is because (1) they ususally don't own the airplanes--they lease them--meaning they have to split the income with the owner (2) the real owner had to borrow money from the bank to buy the airplane, so the income gets split again and (3) neither the flying school nor the owner is going to be the one actually giving you the flight instruction--they're just business people trying to make a buck on someone else's labor! Too many hands in the pot, and none of 'em want to do any work! I own my airplanes outright, do all of the instruction and most of the maintenance myself and don't share none of the money with nobody!! So I can charge less and do just fine. You can do exactly the same thing and save yourself a bunch. That's the real world of airplane economics. Want to save money? Don't **** it away on "handling" (as in other folk hands in the pot) fees. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Do it yourself. [/FONT]
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[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]So much for LSA saving you money. Hah![/FONT] [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]About those SP restrictions: You want to be able to fly in any kind of airspace, don't you? Night? Faster, more capable airplanes? Take your friends and family along? If you already are or become a Private Pilot you can fly Light Sport Aircraft any time without further ado--no additional certification required, no limitations, no restrictions, nada, zip, zero, nuthin'. If you become a SP and then decide you really do want to fly something with a little more zip, big enough to take family or friends along, fly in busier airspace, at night etc., you have to upgrade to PPL. No can do as SP. The little bit of additional training required to become a Private Pilot is all Good Stuff that will only make you more capable, safer and more proficient, with none of the restrictions on the airplanes you can fly, how or when. But why make it a two step process? That won't save you any money! [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Who wants to be halfapilot anyway? [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bottom Line: I love cheap flyin', but most of this SP stuff is just deceptive advertising. I really can't think of any good reason for being a Sport Pilot. Listen!! Training is the most valuable part of flying--get all you can! Be a ratings collector! You will never stop learning to fly--don't even think about trying to skimp to save a couple bucks. It don't work! Want to fly Light Sport Aircraft? Sure, me, too--been flyin' 'em for years! But Sport Pilot? No, don't think so, thanks for asking. Just sounds like marketing nonsense to me. Sorry if I rained on your parade, but that's the way I sees it. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"
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ANFL. A high percentage of pilots who thought (or pretended to think) that their annual flying would consist of numerous trips to a number of destinations found their post-purchase flying to be mostly futzing, and very high-priced futzing to boot. At some point the price of futzing exceeded the fun of futzing and their plane went somewhere else to live. Accordingly, they no longer travel or futz much if at all.

If you're sure you won't ever need or want to go anywhere but would like to be a safe and compete futzer in the meantime, you must decide how much training you want to accomplish to achieve your goal. Once you have completed whatever it turns out to be, please post again with your observations.
 
Futzing is the only fun thing to do with an airplane, good on you for figuring it out some pilots never do. Go Futz and have fun.
 
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