what duty does an instructor have to report other pilots?

[dsffdssdf]

Lets say you're a flight instructor and you hear about a student of yours (or for that matter a person who is not your student) had broken, or was habitually breaking FARs. In these situations, what do you think the appropriate action the instructor should take?

This is being discussed on another forum and the general consensus seems to be "call the FAA immediately or else you (the instructor) are exposing yourself to getting violated for not taking action". I see it completely differently.

I see it like this: The instructor's job is to educate, not act as a junior deputy to the FAA. I would never in a million years go to the FAA and rat someone else out, unless I was somehow being forced to. If I ever saw something really REALLY dangerous, the most I'd do is tell the airport manager, because I think the airport manager is someone who is more in a position to handle these kinds of things.

I don't know, what do you think?...

Also, I guess part of your opinion on this has to do with you belief in what extent an instructor has liability over what his student does. Lets say you're doing training with a student in a C-150 at airport A. He is signed off by you to solo in the C-150. You learn through the grapevine that said student is going "behind your back" at another B flying a PA-28 solo without the appropriate solo endorsement. Do you think in this case the instructor is liable for the student if he crashes and hurts someone? If the instructor had no knowledge of this activity, would he be liable? If he squeals to the feds, does that let him off the hook? What if the instructor deals with this situation with education the student instead of reporting him to the FAA? Is the instructor not acting prudently unless he notifies the FAA?

edit: for the sake of the argument here, assume the student violating the regs in not just coffee talk, but he is indeed doing it and there are facts backing it up.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Lets say you're a flight instructor and you hear about a student of yours (or for that matter a person who is not your student) had broken, or was habitually breaking FARs. In these situations, what do you think the appropriate action the instructor should take?

This is being discussed on another forum and the general consensus seems to be "call the FAA immediately or else you (the instructor) are exposing yourself to getting violated for not taking action". I see it completely differently.

I see it like this: The instructor's job is to educate, not act as a junior deputy to the FAA. I would never in a million years go to the FAA and rat someone else out, unless I was somehow being forced to. If I ever saw something really REALLY dangerous, the most I'd do is tell the airport manager, because I think the airport manager is someone who is more in a position to handle these kinds of things.

I don't know, what do you think?...

Also, I guess part of your opinion on this has to do with you belief in what extent an instructor has liability over what his student does. Lets say you're doing training with a student in a C-150 at airport A. He is signed off by you to solo in the C-150. You learn through the grapevine that said student is going "behind your back" at another B flying a PA-28 solo without the appropriate solo endorsement. Do you think in this case the instructor is liable for the student if he crashes and hurts someone? If the instructor had no knowledge of this activity, would he be liable? If he squeals to the feds, does that let him off the hook? What if the instructor deals with this situation with education the student instead of reporting him to the FAA? Is the instructor not acting prudently unless he notifies the FAA?

If your student is doing something illegal behind your back such as the example you cited above the proper course of action is to counsel the student. The instructor cannot be held liable if he has covered all his bases in training and has covered limitations with the student.

I see it like this: The instructor's job is to educate, not act as a junior deputy to the FAA. I would never in a million years go to the FAA and rat someone else out, unless I was somehow being forced to.

Running to the FAA to do something like this opens a Pandora's box. There's enough of the "wannabe Feds" running around the airport that will be all to happy to beat you to it.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Lets say you're a flight instructor and you hear about a student of yours (or for that matter a person who is not your student) had broken, or was habitually breaking FARs. In these situations, what do you think the appropriate action the instructor should take?

It depends. What are the circumstances?

Current primary student- takes people up when they are supposed to be solo, goes to airports they aren't signed off to visit (outside of an emergency), etc- counsel the person, if needed, drop as a student and remove endorsements. May need to be reported to the FAA if circumstances warrant, and if needed to protect the CFIs ticket and sheild from liability.

Otherwise- it's hearsay and you aren't the FAA

 

[dmccormack]

There are four types of "violations":

• Acts that will eventually kill the solo pilot
• Acts that will eventually kill the pilot and others
• Acts that will kill me and anyone else with me
• Adminstrative trivia

Guess which gets the attention of anyone within shouting range?

 

[Areeda]

I agree that that instructors are not enforcement arms of the FAA. I do feel that all pilots have some responsibility to minimize illegal and dangerous activity.

I think your position is quite clear with words like "rat them out" and "squeal to the FAA".

While I don't see those as my first choices, I don't see them that way either.

Joe

 

[BigAL]

Only go by facts, not coffee shop bs.

 

[dsffdssdf]

It depends. What are the circumstances?

Current primary student- takes people up when they are supposed to be solo, goes to airports they aren't signed off to visit (outside of an emergency), etc- counsel the person, if needed, drop as a student and remove endorsements. May need to be reported to the FAA if circumstances warrant, and if needed to protect the CFIs ticket and sheild from liability.

Otherwise- it's hearsay and you aren't the FAA

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that is so common, but I just can't follow. You seem to be under the impression that instructors are liable for any action "their" students do regardless of anything. When you endorse a student for solo, all you're saying is that you gave him the training. Here is the exact wording:

Solo flight (each additional 90-day period): section 61.87(p).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training to qualify for solo
flying. I have determined he/she meets the applicable requirements of section 61.87(p) and is
proficient to make solo flights in (make and model).

So if you void that, what exactly are you accomplishing? You're backing on your word that you give him sufficient training? How is that going to help you at all in deflecting liability?

Also, what exactly will "dropping the student" do? How exactly is "dropping the student" defined in legal terms? If anything, abandoning a student after you know for a fact he is lead astray is the exact opposite of what you want is prudent in such a situation...

 

[steingar]

If it isn't in writing it didn't happen.

 

[dmccormack]

Also, what exactly will "dropping the student" do? How exactly is "dropping the student" defined in legal terms? If anything, abandoning a student after you know for a fact he is lead astray is the exact opposite of what you want is prudent in such a situation...

Are you an instructor?

If you are, you'd know what "dropping a student" means. It's pretty simple.

I think you're being intentionally contrarian in order to buttress your own predetermined arguments.

Fine, but Joe gave you a very clear answer.

 

[dsffdssdf]

Are you an instructor?

If you are, you'd know what "dropping a student" means. It's pretty simple.

I think you're being intentionally contrarian in order to buttress your own predetermined arguments.

Fine, but Joe gave you a very clear answer.

I meant in terms of legal liability. How is expressing "this guy is no longer 'my' student" in any way expunging yourself from liability?

Lets say theres a student who flies with instructor A at airport A, he also flies with instructor B at airport B, and instructor C at airport C, and so on. Theres nothing illegal about an instructor instructing a student who is also getting instruction from another instructor. There is also nothing illegal about a student getting instruction from multiple instructors. Furthermore, theres nothing from stopping two or more instructors giving a student a solo endorsement. If this student were to crash, which one of these instructors is liable? Are they all liable?

There seems to be this notion that any student that is "with" an instructor is a liability to that instructor. And to remove that liability, all you have to do is "release" that student from your stable of students. I have no idea where this thinking comes from. Theres no basis for this kind of thinking. I'd love to hear someone explain it to me.

 

[poadeleted20]

If I knew one of my current Student Pilots was breaking the rules, the first thing I'd do is put an immediate end to that student's solo flying until we could have a sit-down to discuss the situation (BTDT). What flows from there depends on what happens in our discussion. And yes, in one case, we eventually banned a student from our flight school and warned the other schools on the airport about him.

As for other pilots (former students or not), I would attempt to talk with the individual and see if I could help them learn why it's important not to do whatever it was s/he was doing, but I wouldn't press the issue if the person didn't want to talk or didn't seem amenable to reason. If at that point I thought the person was likely to become a statistic, I'd let the FSDO know and let them handle it from there.

Is this "ratting out a fellow pilot"? Not hardly. Nobody who refuses to fly safely is my "fellow pilot." S/he is an idiot who is going to cost me money and flying freedom in the form of additional FAA restrictions, higher insurance rates, and increased airport restrictions (due to scared airport neighbors beating on the airport commissioners). I have no problem at all being part of the solution when someone like that is screwing up aviation for the rest of us. And before you argue with me, just think if you could have stopped Hayden "Jim" Shaffer before he buzzed the White House.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that is so common, but I just can't follow. You seem to be under the impression that instructors are liable for any action "their" students do regardless of anything. When you endorse a student for solo, all you're saying is that you gave him the training. Here is the exact wording:

So if you void that, what exactly are you accomplishing? You're backing on your word that you give him sufficient training? How is that going to help you at all in deflecting liability?

Also, what exactly will "dropping the student" do? How exactly is "dropping the student" defined in legal terms? If anything, abandoning a student after you know for a fact he is lead astray is the exact opposite of what you want is prudent in such a situation...

I'm neither a CFI or lawyer...in fact, this thread suggests liability is actually low:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22767

This link has more info:
http://www.thecfi.com/Tiger by the Tail.pdf

I'm willing, in the face of better information, to back off my concern of liability. The CFI still should probably protect themselves if they determine that the student has been breaking rules about solo flight or where they are allowed to fly.

Some students aren't lead astray- they know what they are doing is wrong- such as the recent case where a passenger ran into a propellor while trying to hide the fact he was on what was supposed to be a solo flight.

You aren't backing off your word that you trained them- you are removing privileges in the face that they chose to ignore the training.

I'm curious how you would handle someone who doesn't know what "solo" means, for example.

 

[dmccormack]

I meant in terms of legal liability. How is expressing "this guy is no longer 'my' student" in any way expunging yourself from liability?

Lets say theres a student who flies with instructor A at airport A, he also flies with instructor B at airport B, and instructor C at airport C, and so on. Theres nothing illegal about an instructor instructing a student who is also getting instruction from another instructor. There is also nothing illegal about a student getting instruction from multiple instructors. Furthermore, theres nothing from stopping two or more instructors giving a student a solo endorsement. If this student were to crash, which one of these instructors is liable? Are they all liable?

If I found out a student was flying with another without my knowledge, I'd drop him like a hot rock.

Clearly the student is playing a game that I care not to play.

If I'm sharing the duties, the lessons will compliment each other and we will confer about when and where to solo. There won't be any mystery or uncertainity.

There seems to be this notion that any student that is "with" an instructor is a liability to that instructor. And to remove that liability, all you have to do is "release" that student from your stable of students. I have no idea where this thinking comes from. Theres no basis for this kind of thinking. I'd love to hear someone explain it to me.

Whose notion?

If I have a student who is intentionally ignoring rules and has the makings of a statistic, and I document my efforts to counsel him, and he is subsequently "dropped," I can show how, when, and why he was dropped, thereby providing some protection against administrative, criminal, and civil liability.

If you're looking for no fault absolute, teach driving.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm curious how you would handle someone who doesn't know what "solo" means, for example.

In the case of one Student Pilot who got caught flying with a passenger, we kicked his butt out of the flight school, as it was the third time he'd busted either FAA or school rules. Then we let the other flight schools on the field know he was no longer allowed to fly with us.

 

[dsffdssdf]

Is this "ratting out a fellow pilot"? Not hardly. Nobody who refuses to fly safely is my "fellow pilot." S/he is an idiot who is going to cost me money and flying freedom in the form of additional FAA restrictions, higher insurance rates, and increased airport restrictions (due to scared airport neighbors beating on the airport commissioners). I have no problem at all being part of the solution when someone like that is screwing up aviation for the rest of us. And before you argue with me, just think if you could have stopped Hayden "Jim" Shaffer before he buzzed the White House.

I see what you're saying, but this "I need to step up or else we all suffer" line of thinking a little weak to justify your actions.

Imagine you're driving down the highway going 55mph. A car comes from behind you and passes you. That car was going more than 55 mph! He's breaking the law! I better write down his plates and call the state highway patrol as soon as possible. People who drive over the speed limit are operating their car at higher than legal speeds cause accidents which in turn cause more highway regulations, which in turn costs me more money. Thats how you sound.

And who is this Hayden "Jim" Shaffer guy? Google brings up nothing. I'm assuming he is some guy who buzzed the white house? Yes I would have loved to stop him from doing that. But of that means I have to start calling the FAA on a semi-regular basis whever I see something shady, which causes otherwise good people to lose flying privileges, then its not worth it.

 

[dmccormack]

I see what you're saying, but this "I need to step up or else we all suffer" line of thinking a little weak to justify your actions.

Imagine you're driving down the highway going 55mph. A car comes from behind you and passes you. That car was going more than 55 mph! He's breaking the law! I better write down his plates and call the state highway patrol as soon as possible. People who drive over the speed limit are operating their car at higher than legal speeds cause accidents which in turn cause more highway regulations, which in turn costs me more money. Thats how you sound.

And who is this Hayden "Jim" Shaffer guy? Google brings up nothing. I'm assuming he is some guy who buzzed the white house? Yes I would have loved to stop him from doing that. But of that means I have to start calling the FAA on a semi-regular basis whever I see something shady, which causes otherwise good people to lose flying privileges, then its not worth it.

You'd have to have an adult sense of proportion to be able to make judgements.

If someone passes me doing 75 when the limit is 70, I don't call anyone.

When someone passes me at 120 on a busy commuter highway, I'm expecting an accident ahead.

When someone drives 50 southbound on the northbound lane, I'm calling 911 and pulling over and waving everyone else to slow down....

 

[dsffdssdf]

If I found out a student was flying with another without my knowledge, I'd drop him like a hot rock.

Clearly the student is playing a game that I care not to play.

If I'm sharing the duties, the lessons will compliment each other and we will confer about when and where to solo. There won't be any mystery or uncertainity.

Interesting. You require your students to ask your permission before they fly with anyone else? Do you instruct adults, or primarily people under 18?

Whose notion?

If I have a student who is intentionally ignoring rules and has the makings of a statistic, and I document my efforts to counsel him, and he is subsequently "dropped," I can show how, when, and why he was dropped, thereby providing some protection against administrative, criminal, and civil liability.

If you're looking for no fault absolute, teach driving.

But what I want to know, is how exactly do you "drop" a student. Do you just abandon them? Do you make them sign something that says "I hereby am no longer property of [instructor's name]"?

 

[dmccormack]

Interesting. You require your students to ask your permission before they fly with anyone else? Do you instruct adults, or primarily people under 18?

I'm only answering to make sure this is clear, but I can tell from your posts you're just trolling.

I am an independent CFI. If someone asks me to teach them to fly, I always spend some time on the ground asking them various background, previous flight history, etc in order to assess where to start and how to handle this student.

If they don't tell me "I'm also taking lessons with Joe..." then I have an instant problem with this person and will suggest he/she continue flying with Joe.

There are too few hours in a day to have to deal with a deceitful student.

But what I want to know, is how exactly do you "drop" a student. Do you just abandon them? Do you make them sign something that says "I hereby am no longer property of [instructor's name]"?

How hard is this?

"Sorry, I won't fly with you [for the following reasons]."

Then I write down the when, why, and where for future reference.



ok...I'm done feeding the troll.

 

[dsffdssdf]

You'd have to have an adult sense of proportion to be able to make judgements.

If someone passes me doing 75 when the limit is 70, I don't call anyone.

When someone passes me at 120 on a busy commuter highway, I'm expecting an accident ahead.

When someone drives 50 southbound on the northbound lane, I'm calling 911 and pulling over and waving everyone else to slow down....

I think that most people who feel their duty is to take it upon themselves to report violations to the FAA, sometimes go too far and report stuff that is more trivial than a matter of actual safety.

For instance someone flying a tailwheel airplane without a signoff. Or someone doing an instrument approach when they're not current. There are a lot of people out there who see these offenses as RED CASE OMG SOUND THE SIRENS infractions which warrants a FAA call asap. Its like they get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking they did something good by telling on someone, so they convince themselves that everything they see is deserving of a call to the FAA.

The truth is, I can't think of a single regulation violation that I see as something requiring me to call the FAA on my own accord in order to obey the "CFI Hippocratic oath" all instructors must obey (which I know doesn't actually exist).

 

[dmccormack]

I think that most people who feel their duty is to take it upon themselves to report violations to the FAA, sometimes go too far and report stuff that is more trivial than a matter of actual safety.

For instance someone flying a tailwheel airplane without a signoff. Or someone doing an instrument approach when they're not current. There are a lot of people out there who see these offenses as RED CASE OMG SOUND THE SIRENS infractions which warrants a FAA call asap. Its like they get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking they did something good by telling on someone, so they convince themselves that everything they see is deserving of a call to the FAA.

The truth is, I can't think of a single regulation violation that I see as something requiring me to call the FAA on my own accord in order to obey the "CFI Hippocratic oath" all instructors must obey (which I know doesn't actually exist).

Got it -- you're the only one who's figured it out and the rest of us muldoons are all hosed up.

Got it.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Imagine you're driving down the highway going 55mph. A car comes from behind you and passes you. That car was going more than 55 mph! He's breaking the law! I better write down his plates and call the state highway patrol as soon as possible. People who drive over the speed limit are operating their car at higher than legal speeds cause accidents which in turn cause more highway regulations, which in turn costs me more money. Thats how you sound.

A few months ago, on my way in to work, some lady passes me who is obviously having trouble staying in her lane. I think about calling 911 but decide not to.

A few miles down the road I arrive at the accident scene...

I think I should have called.

 

[dsffdssdf]

I'm only answering to make sure this is clear, but I can tell from your posts you're just trolling.

I am an independent CFI. If someone asks me to teach them to fly, I always spend some time on the ground asking them various background, previous flight history, etc in order to assess where to start and how to handle this student.

If they don't tell me "I'm also taking lessons with Joe..." then I have an instant problem with this person and will suggest he/she continue flying with Joe.

There are too few hours in a day to have to deal with a deceitful student.

I find it very odd how you seem to feel that you "own" your students.

Back when I was an instructor, I saw the student as a person who wants to be a pilot. He or she can use me as a tool to get to their goal. If that person felt they needed to utilize another instructor to get them there where they wanted to be, it was none of my buisness. Who the hell was I to say "no you can't, you can only fly with me". And furthermore, who the hell are you to think you have the authority to mandate who your students can and can't get instruction from?

 

[dsffdssdf]

Got it -- you're the only one who's figured it out and the rest of us muldoons are all hosed up.

Got it.

Not all people are like that. Just the ones who feel they need to take it upon themselves to put on their little plastic "junior FAA deputy sheriff"

Which thankfully is a relatively small proportion of pilots...

 

[dmccormack]

I find it very odd how you seem to feel that you "own" your students.

Back when I was an instructor, I saw the student as a person who wants to be a pilot. He or she can use me as a tool to get to their goal. If that person felt they needed to utilize another instructor to get them there where they wanted to be, it was none of my buisness. Who the hell was I to say "no you can't, you can only fly with me". And furthermore, who the hell are you to think you have the authority to mandate who your students can and can't get instruction from?

You're a real piece of work.

Did I say I "owned" them?

No -- I said I interviewed them to learn some background so I can effectively instruct.

If they leave out a very key peice of information, to wit "I am also flying with so and so" then this is a liar who I don't have time for.

If they tell me, "I am also flying with so and so..." my next question will be, "Then how can I help you?"

If it's a scheduling problem, whatever, then I will be sure to coordinate with the other instructor.

But if they are hiring 2 or more CFIs to see who signs off first, no thanks.

Keep posting -- it's becoming very clear you've never had a student.

 

[SkyHog]

You're a real piece of work.

Did I say I "owned" them?

No -- I said I interviewed them to learn some background so I can effectively instruct.

If they leave out a very key peice of information, to wit "I am also flying with so and so" then this is a liar who I don't have time for.

If they tell me, "I am also flying with so and so..." my next question will be, "Then how can I help you?"

If it's a scheduling problem, whatever, then I will be sure to coordinate with the other instructor.

But if they are hiring 2 or more CFIs to see who signs off first, no thanks.

Keep posting -- it's becoming very clear you've never had a student.

This is the most retarded thing I've ever read....you are an instructor. You are paid to instruct. I hire you, you don't hire me.

Who cares why I'm paying you? Take your $30, and sit in the right seat while I fly the airplane for you and you get to build your hours towards a real job.

Harsh, but true.

 

[dsffdssdf]

You're a real piece of work.

Did I say I "owned" them?

No -- I said I interviewed them to learn some background so I can effectively instruct.

If they leave out a very key peice of information, to wit "I am also flying with so and so" then this is a liar who I don't have time for.

If they tell me, "I am also flying with so and so..." my next question will be, "Then how can I help you?"

If it's a scheduling problem, whatever, then I will be sure to coordinate with the other instructor.

But if they are hiring 2 or more CFIs to see who signs off first, no thanks.

Keep posting -- it's becoming very clear you've never had a student.

I don't see how who they've flown with in the past or who they're flying with no is a "key piece of information". I don't see how it's any of your business.

You may not have explicitly said you "own" your syudents but you sure do seem to act like you do. Why else would you feel the need to "discharge" a student after he does something you disapprove of?

 

[EppyGA]

It's interesting the way you guys keep feeding this guys ego. He asked a question you all chimed in and he didn't like the answers. Fun should be over at this point.

 

[dmccormack]

It's interesting the way you guys keep feeding this guys ego. He asked a question you all chimed in and he didn't like the answers. Fun should be over at this point.

True. I have a headache and am not flying today, so I'm grumpy.

And my son just left for Ft Benning. So I'm grumpy.


(He's on his way now: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/TRS984)

 

[dsffdssdf]

It's interesting the way you guys keep feeding this guys ego. He asked a question you all chimed in and he didn't like the answers. Fun should be over at this point.

If you're referring to me, I didn't ask a question. I asked people opinions. Some people opinions were, I felt, misguided, so I replied to them to express why I fely their opinion were misguided. They then replied that my feelings that their opinions were misguided is, in fact misguided. Thats kind of how discussions forums work

 

[Areeda]

This is the most retarded thing I've ever read....you are an instructor. You are paid to instruct. I hire you, you don't hire me.

Who cares why I'm paying you? Take your $30, and sit in the right seat while I fly the airplane for you and you get to build your hours towards a real job.

Harsh, but true.

Nick,

I think that kind of thinking may be why we interview students.

If all you want is somebody to sit in the right seat, build hours, keep their mouth shut and sign you off when you think you're ready, I doubt you'll fly with any real teachers.

To be honest I don't need your $30 nor another hour in my logbook. If I don't feel we can work together, either because I don't have the skill and knowledge to provide $30 worth of instruction, or you don't have the willingness or mind frame, or I don't see us working together productively, then I suggest we don't fly together.

Joe

 

[EppyGA]

If you're referring to me, I didn't ask a question. I asked people opinions. Some people opinions were, I felt, misguided, so I replied to them to express why I fely their opinion were misguided. They then replied that my feelings that their opinions were misguided is, in fact misguided. Thats kind of how discussions forums work

Hmmmmm

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary responsehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)#cite_note-PCMAG_def-0 or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)#cite_note-IUKB_def-1

 

[SkyHog]

Nick,

I think that kind of thinking may be why we interview students.

If all you want is somebody to sit in the right seat, build hours, keep their mouth shut and sign you off when you think you're ready, I doubt you'll fly with any real teachers.

To be honest I don't need your $30 nor another hour in my logbook. If I don't feel we can work together, either because I don't have the skill and knowledge to provide $30 worth of instruction, or you don't have the willingness or mind frame, or I don't see us working together productively, then I suggest we don't fly together.

Joe

Ahh, but Joe, you're missing the point. A CFI that gets territorial over their students does, in fact, need the money, or else there's no reason they'd care if a student is using multiple instructors.

That is not to say that all instructors are building hours or even chomping at my $30 like its the last $30 they'll ever see, but rather, combining the attitude with the "You're mine, or you're no one elses!" means that's a CFI that really doesn't need to be teaching.

Instead, our CFIs should be encouraging students to seek 2nd, 3rd, even 4th opinions. For example, I had a hard time learning to land. I flew with a different instructor, and he was able to teach me how to round out and flare properly, while the other instructor just couldn't get through to me.

Am I to believe that it is acceptable for a CFI to look at my logbook and say "Well, he taught you to land, you better get used to him!"

No, I pay instructors to teach me what they're good at. If they're not teaching me one thing right, but the rest they're teaching fine, I get to choos who to use, not the CFI.

Because I hire the CFI, not the other way around.

 

[dmccormack]

Nick,

I think that kind of thinking may be why we interview students.

If all you want is somebody to sit in the right seat, build hours, keep their mouth shut and sign you off when you think you're ready, I doubt you'll fly with any real teachers.

To be honest I don't need your $30 nor another hour in my logbook. If I don't feel we can work together, either because I don't have the skill and knowledge to provide $30 worth of instruction, or you don't have the willingness or mind frame, or I don't see us working together productively, then I suggest we don't fly together.

Joe

Well said.

It's a huge disservice when instructors don't have the interest in their student's required to find out what they want, where they've come from, and what they expect.

And I don't charge for that time.

Mainly because I don't need the money.

And so far I've interviewed several students who said, "Nobody ever asked me why I wanted to fly..."

I've also made several very good friends.

I'll stick with my approach.

:wink2:

 

[Cap'n Jack]

If you're referring to me, I didn't ask a question. I asked people opinions. Some people opinions were, I felt, misguided, so I replied to them to express why I fely their opinion were misguided. They then replied that my feelings that their opinions were misguided is, in fact misguided. Thats kind of how discussions forums work

I note you didn't answer the question "What would you do if one of your students broke a rule, regarding solo flight for example?" Or if they flew to an airport they weren't signend off to land at (outside of an emergency)?

 

[TMetzinger]

If I knew one of my current Student Pilots was breaking the rules, the first thing I'd do is put an immediate end to that student's solo flying until we could have a sit-down to discuss the situation (BTDT). What flows from there depends on what happens in our discussion. And yes, in one case, we eventually banned a student from our flight school and warned the other schools on the airport about him.

As for other pilots (former students or not), I would attempt to talk with the individual and see if I could help them learn why it's important not to do whatever it was s/he was doing, but I wouldn't press the issue if the person didn't want to talk or didn't seem amenable to reason. If at that point I thought the person was likely to become a statistic, I'd let the FSDO know and let them handle it from there.

Is this "ratting out a fellow pilot"? Not hardly. Nobody who refuses to fly safely is my "fellow pilot." S/he is an idiot who is going to cost me money and flying freedom in the form of additional FAA restrictions, higher insurance rates, and increased airport restrictions (due to scared airport neighbors beating on the airport commissioners). I have no problem at all being part of the solution when someone like that is screwing up aviation for the rest of us. And before you argue with me, just think if you could have stopped Hayden "Jim" Shaffer before he buzzed the White House.

That's the position I take too. When I have a student pilot (and by that I mean someone who is actively training with me, hasn't yet taken a checkride and gotten his own plastic airman certificate), then I will consider myself responsible and potentially liable for his actions. I can drop the student with a written letter, and that releases me from my moral responsibilities and hopefully significantly limits my liability too.

If I have a certificated pilot who is a current or former pilot-under-instruction (maybe that's a better term), then I will counsel him when we're together. I may seek him out to talk about it. Depending on the reception, I may call the FSDO in, and their actions will depend on the behavior reported. Sometimes they contact the pilot and suggest a meeting with a senior FAASTeam rep (formerly ASC) as an alternative to a formal investigation (hint, if you ever get a call like this, take the offer).

We are given a lot of freedom as pilots, and unless we want more gov't oversight, we need to police our own a little bit. Generally peer pressure works fine for this but some folks need a hammer to get their attention.

 

[dmccormack]

Ahh, but Joe, you're missing the point. A CFI that gets territorial over their students does, in fact, need the money, or else there's no reason they'd care if a student is using multiple instructors.

That is not to say that all instructors are building hours or even chomping at my $30 like its the last $30 they'll ever see, but rather, combining the attitude with the "You're mine, or you're no one elses!" means that's a CFI that really doesn't need to be teaching.

Instead, our CFIs should be encouraging students to seek 2nd, 3rd, even 4th opinions. For example, I had a hard time learning to land. I flew with a different instructor, and he was able to teach me how to round out and flare properly, while the other instructor just couldn't get through to me.

Am I to believe that it is acceptable for a CFI to look at my logbook and say "Well, he taught you to land, you better get used to him!"

No, I pay instructors to teach me what they're good at. If they're not teaching me one thing right, but the rest they're teaching fine, I get to choos who to use, not the CFI.

Because I hire the CFI, not the other way around.

If you read with comprehension you'd see that no CFI on this thread ever claimed "ownership" over any student.

The troll keeps trying to cast it that way, and you apparently can't distinguish between the two points of view.

Let me break it down for you: If a student hides /conceals/ fails to reveal the fact that he/she is also flying with someone else, that's a problem.

The only way to "hide" the fact is two or more logbooks.

Illegal? No.

Devious? Yes.

 

[dmccormack]

Who cares why I'm paying you? Take your $30, and sit in the right seat while I fly the airplane for you and you get to build your hours towards a real job.

Harsh, but true.

I'm 47 years old, a Senior Engineer/ Project Manager, and a retired Army Officer.

I have plenty of "real jobs" and care not a whit about building hours.

I love to fly. I love to teach.

Instructing lets me do both.

 

[poadeleted20]

You may not have explicitly said you "own" your syudents but you sure do seem to act like you do. Why else would you feel the need to "discharge" a student after he does something you disapprove of?

Because after he comes to grief, the FAA will look through his logbook and come asking questions of all the instructors involved. I prefer not to have that interaction -- I don't need the FAA thinking I produce bozo pilots, as that leads to 709 rides and non-renewals. Again, it's self-interest at work, not any desire to control anyone else.

 

[bobmrg]

In my experience, going to the FSDO accomplishes absolutely nothing. If an ops inspector did not see it happen (and there was no accident involved), it didn't happen.

Bob Gardner

 

[dsffdssdf]

I note you didn't answer the question "What would you do if one of your students broke a rule, regarding solo flight for example?" Or if they flew to an airport they weren't signend off to land at (outside of an emergency)?

This actually happened to me once. I had a student go to an airport I didn't sign him off for. We planned a specific route that satisfies the regs, and I guess I didn't make it clear to him that he HAD to fly that exact route. I told him that this would be his last solo flight, so if he gets back earlier than what it took to get 10 hours, then he should do some touch and go's around the pattern to get his time up. Apparently he took that to mean he could go to the neighboring airport to do his touch and go's because thats where we always have gone to do them (home airport was sort of busy). It was a simple misunderstanding. From that point on I just made sure I explicitly expressed to the rest of my students how you can only go to the places that I specifically sign for.

Now if the student did it knowing full well it was illegal, then well... he's a big boy, he knows what the consequences of his actions are. What can I do? What if he takes a gun with him and shoots at people from above? What if he robs a bank? I can't be held responsible for everything illegal he decides to do. All I can do, and all I ever should do is make completely sure he truly knows what the law is, and what the consequences of breaking those laws are. The only way you could say I'm responsible for any of his actions, is if I didn't inform him that those actions were wrong.