What does everyone think about ‘Lie to Fly’ from NYTimes?

[MauleSkinner]

Figure what?

That anyone who drinks alcohol has increased tolerance.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

You would most likely be the only person who read his statement that way. But a “level of alcoholism” is still alcoholism.

I agree, and I'm being honest with myself. The point of this is the FAA does not treat the individual based upon their specific level of anything.

That is the reason many pilots aren't truthful with themselves or the FAA and therefore don't disclose all material medical items for fear of being in my position.

That's the point of "Lie to Fly."

We're full circle, again.

 

[Tools]

Well, the DSM-5 defines tolerance as drinking more to get the same effect.

Unfortunately, the faa ignores all accepted medical definitions. The faa defines it as having EVER had a BAC of .2 and not dying… and even maybe if you had a .16 and didn’t croak.

Edit: FWIW this “tolerance” goes away in about a month.

Alcoholism is about 50 years older than halitosis… which says something…

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

That anyone who drinks alcohol as increased tolerance.

Says anyone that's drank any amount over years.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Says anyone that's drank any amount over years.

So one drink every couple of months is increased tolerance?

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

So one drink every couple of months is increased tolerance?

Sure, MauleSkinner. Why not…

 

[Lindberg]

Nobody here, me included, is advocating the abuse of drugs. So No, that’s not what i was saying.

But someone here is advocating for active alcoholics in denial being allowed to fly without jumping through hoops.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Sure, MauleSkinner. Why not…

Because making up your own definitions doesn’t help your cause.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Because making up your own definitions doesn’t help your cause.

Whatever you say.

 

[Tools]

But someone here is advocating for active alcoholics in denial being allowed to fly without jumping through hoops.

That’s called an Kafka trap. Popular during the Salem witch trials.

I don’t see that criteria in the DSM anything.

 

[bbchien]

UTLonghorn....there are a lotta folks here trying to teach you stuff....you might want to adopt a learning posture......or...maybe not!

 

[Lindberg]

That’s called an Kafka trap. Popular during the Salem witch trials.

I don’t see that criteria in the DSM anything.

Come-on man. "I couldn't handle my life without alcohol, but I wanted to stop drinking and I couldn't without checking myself into rehab, and then after I finished the program, I started drinking again even though I didn't want to, but I'm not drinking right now, so I'm not an alcoholic."

You need to check the DSM?

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

UTLonghorn....there are a lotta folks here trying to teach you stuff....you might want to adopt a learning posture......or...maybe not!

 

[wellknow]

De-nile’s not just a river in Egypt.

 

[Clip4]

I agree, and I'm being honest with myself. The point of this is the FAA does not treat the individual based upon their specific level of anything.

That is the reason many pilots aren't truthful with themselves or the FAA and therefore don't disclose all material medical items for fear of being in my position.

That's the point of "Lie to Fly."

We're full circle, again.

True, treatment is your responsibility. The FAA’s responsibility is establishing the standards and assuring you meet those standards. Many people have perceptions of their health that is not aligned with reality. With incorrect perceptions, one really can’t be honest with themselves.

 

[leonlowe]

My favorite part that goes unmentioned is how many pilots drop dead in the cockpit. I guarantee 99% of these were avoidable if they weren’t scared of the doctor.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

For the same reasons the FAA doesn’t accept the signature of a CFI (paid from your own pocket) and issue pilot certificates without FAA written and practical tests. The FAA sets the standards and assures the pilots meet the standards for a certificate, not the training CFI or the treating medical professional.

The FAA doesn't accept the signature of my doctor, they make me go to an AME. Yes, I have to pay the AME - But I also have to pay the DPE.

The FAA does *not* require someone who flies a maneuver poorly on their checkride the first time to get a special issuance pilot certificate after an often-years-long process - They let the DPE decide whether it's a pattern and the person isn't ready for that certificate or rating, or whether it was simply an anomaly and they should let the examinee try again.

The FAA relaxed their rules on handling depression 14 years ago and again earlier this year. They’ve made several statements encouraging pilots to seek care. Not sure how much more they can do except completely eliminating mental health standards.

The issue is that if you want your insurance to pay for care, you have to get a diagnosis of some sort... And that means you have to report it and go through a non-trivial process just to be able to work.

Also, even if you pay cash and don't get a diagnosis, supposedly you have to report it on your medical application. I have doubts about that because as far as I could tell from reading the regs that wasn't true, but since the ARC recommended that as a change, it must be true, right?

Actually, that’s pretty much the way the FAA works across the board. Every pilot certificate I issue gets forwarded to some nameless, faceless bureaucrat in OKC who makes a decision without ever putting eyes on the pilot.

Huh? No, the computer spits out a temporary certificate, I sign it and I'm on my way. Nobody gets denied for a pilot certificate after they've got their temp in hand. No faceless bureaucrat in OKC is sifting through everything making decisions.

Yes, there are also pilots, or those who wish to become pilots, who are completely honest and transparent in the process. I, personally, believe this group is by FAR the largest.

I was helping a kid in a college aviation program several years ago. He decided to disclose everything and go through the whole HIMS process. Took quite a long time, but he did finally get there. He was really frustrated because he had numerous classmates who were just not disclosing things on their applications, while he was prevented from soloing for a long time and spending thousands of dollars. He told me "I have never regretted being honest until now."

I think the FAA has become such a boogeyman with their opaque process that the actual situation is exactly the opposite of your belief.

I'd prefer to see the requirements for Class 3 relaxed significantly.

Yes!

IIRC, the only difference between 3rd and 2nd class is the vision phoria test, and the only difference between 2nd and 1st is the EKG. Yes, people flying machines weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds carrying dozens or hundreds of passengers should be in excellent health... But some guy flying his buddy around in a 152 needs nearly the same, at least once? It just doesn't seem to fit.

What utter nonsense. Plenty of people seek and get help and return to flying. Very few people lie. Nobody is being abused.

Hah! LOTS of people lie... Or at least, they say they do. Heck, the FAA even catches a few of them now and then.

And if you don't think anyone is being abused, go to TikTok and look up cheesepilot. I forget exactly what happened, but his AME got mad at him at some point, who went and dug up his military service records. IIRC, He had spoken with someone after some combat action in Afghanistan, while he was still in theater. No diagnosis, no drugs, shouldn't be reportable I think... But said AME made a stink about it, got the guy's medical denied, and he went through the whole process to get it back, with everything seemingly in order, and after delaying for months, the FAA denied him again with no explanation.

I wonder if it was this guy... I doubt it because I think he's finally been decertified: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/ame-contacted-the-faa-to-warn-them-about-me.94478/

EDIT: Oh jeez. He wasn't decertified. He was hired by the FAA as the deputy regional flight surgeon. That's why he disappeared from the AME list. You can't make this stuff up!

One interesting and telling fact from the “Lie to Fly” show was that the often quoted “fact" that only .1% of those applying for medical are actually ever denied is a farce. Dr. Northrup herself says that doesn’t include all the deferrals that are still in deferral status. I.e. all those unable or unwilling to go through the hoops the FAA sets up. I’m fortunate enough to be able to cashflow all the evaluations and such they require…many aren’t so lucky.

Yeah, they're purposely showing the data that they have, and not the data they can't possibly have, because the data they have makes them look good even though it's massively misleading.

 

[Clip4]

The FAA doesn't accept the signature of my doctor, they make me go to an AME. Yes, I have to pay the AME - But I also have to pay the DPE.

The FAA does *not* require someone who flies a maneuver poorly on their checkride the first time to get a special issuance pilot certificate after an often-years-long process - They let the DPE decide whether it's a pattern and the person isn't ready for that certificate or rating, or whether it was simply an anomaly and they should let the examinee try again.

The issue is that if you want your insurance to pay for care, you have to get a diagnosis of some sort... And that means you have to report it and go through a non-trivial process just to be able to work.

Also, even if you pay cash and don't get a diagnosis, supposedly you have to report it on your medical application. I have doubts about that because as far as I could tell from reading the regs that wasn't true, but since the ARC recommended that as a change, it must be true, right?

Huh? No, the computer spits out a temporary certificate, I sign it and I'm on my way. Nobody gets denied for a pilot certificate after they've got their temp in hand. No faceless bureaucrat in OKC is sifting through everything making decisions.

I was helping a kid in a college aviation program several years ago. He decided to disclose everything and go through the whole HIMS process. Took quite a long time, but he did finally get there. He was really frustrated because he had numerous classmates who were just not disclosing things on their applications, while he was prevented from soloing for a long time and spending thousands of dollars. He told me "I have never regretted being honest until now."

I think the FAA has become such a boogeyman with their opaque process that the actual situation is exactly the opposite of your belief.

Yes!

IIRC, the only difference between 3rd and 2nd class is the vision phoria test, and the only difference between 2nd and 1st is the EKG. Yes, people flying machines weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds carrying dozens or hundreds of passengers should be in excellent health... But some guy flying his buddy around in a 152 needs nearly the same, at least once? It just doesn't seem to fit.

Hah! LOTS of people lie... Or at least, they say they do. Heck, the FAA even catches a few of them now and then.

And if you don't think anyone is being abused, go to TikTok and look up cheesepilot. I forget exactly what happened, but his AME got mad at him at some point, who went and dug up his military service records. IIRC, He had spoken with someone after some combat action in Afghanistan, while he was still in theater. No diagnosis, no drugs, shouldn't be reportable I think... But said AME made a stink about it, got the guy's medical denied, and he went through the whole process to get it back, with everything seemingly in order, and after delaying for months, the FAA denied him again with no explanation.

I wonder if it was this guy... I doubt it because I think he's finally been decertified: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/ame-contacted-the-faa-to-warn-them-about-me.94478/

EDIT: Oh jeez. He wasn't decertified. He was hired by the FAA as the deputy regional flight surgeon. That's why he disappeared from the AME list. You can't make this stuff up!

Yeah, they're purposely showing the data that they have, and not the data they can't possibly have, because the data they have makes them look good even though it's massively misleading.so

I get it, there are people who believe the FAA should not have any medical standards and equate failing a medical for metal health issues to failing a practical test.

The issue I see if you knew students who were lying on a medical application, you didn’t report them. If they will lie on a medical application, why won’t they lie in their logbooks?

The system relies on honesty. Many with mental illness are unable to be honest. We see it all the time. A pilot with a DUI conviction who checks no DUI on a medical form that requires his authorization for the FAA to check the National Driver Data Base or has PTSD and checks no to the are you disabled box like no one will ever figure it out.

As a CFI, if I had reasonable cause to believe a student lied on a medical form, I suppose you think I should solo them.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I get it, there are people who believe the FAA should not have any medical standards.

That is not at all what I said.

The opposite of your helping the college kid is the people I have had that should never an airplane, including LS.

And why should those people never <blank> an airplane?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Huh? No, the computer spits out a temporary certificate, I sign it and I'm on my way. Nobody gets denied for a pilot certificate after they've got their temp in hand. No faceless bureaucrat in OKC is sifting through everything making decisions.

Wrong.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

The FAA tomorrow could offer every single pilot $100,000 worth of FREE DIAGNOSTICS from the BEST DOCTORS around the world.

Millions of people would jump at this offer to make improvements on their health or find a potential cancer or solve a rare medical problem. Get the labs, bloodwork, and CTs scans that insurance would never pay.

And every single pilot would reject the free testing in fear of losing their medical.

The doctors may accidentally find out their CAC score is too high, extend their life 20 years but the pilot will never fly again.

The system is a joke

For anything but commercial flight, your PCP (in consultation with any specialists or mental health professionals) should be the final determining factor.

 

[leonlowe]

Yeah, they're purposely showing the data that they have, and not the data they can't possibly have, because the data they have makes them look good even though it's massively misleading.

The FAA, much like an insurance company, operates behind a veil of bureaucracy, but with even less accountability. They present selective data that paints a favorable picture, conveniently leaving out the information that would expose the reality, much like how an insurer might deny a claim based on cherry-picked data. The difference is, insurance companies are subject to regulations and legal recourse; the FAA, on the other hand, wields its authority with minimal oversight.

We know the FAA is omitting the truth and misleading us, yet if we were to do the same, it would be considered a crime. I strongly suspect that the incomplete deferral rate is over 99%, but they’ll never publish that information.

 

[StraightnLevel]

For anything but commercial flight, your PCP (in consultation with any specialists or mental health professionals) should be the final determining factor.

Absolutely not.

Doctors' profit margins depend on a steady stream of diagnoses. They lose money on healthy patients, and the system incentivizes them to always find something to require additional testing or referrals.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Wrong.

Reference?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Reference?

Actually, that’s pretty much the way the FAA works across the board. Every pilot certificate I issue gets forwarded to some nameless, faceless bureaucrat in OKC who makes a decision without ever putting eyes on the pilot.

Or, from the 8900.1

Correction Notices. The Airmen Certification Branch will review the electronic
application package for accuracy and completeness to ensure that applicants have met all
regulatory requirements.

 

[Half Fast]

For anything but commercial flight, your PCP (in consultation with any specialists or mental health professionals) should be the final determining factor.

Pretty much the way Basic Med works. Get rid of the class 3 prerequisite and we'll have a 90% solution.