What do you think of this payment rate for instruction?

livitup

livitup

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livitup
A long-time CFI (retired from his primary occupation, now teaching for fun) offers the following instructional plan at my local airport. He owns a new-ish 172 which is hangared at the field. It is IFR equipped, but I don't know if it has GPS in it (not important for primary flight training, but possibly useful information for evaluating the deal). His fee schedule is very simple. He charges $135 per hour for instruction, including the plane, wet. The catch is that the $135 rate runs on the ground, in the classroom, in the plane, in the air, dual or solo. If you're talking to him or flying his plane, it's $135.

For reference, that's about the same price I'd pay for a ratted out trainer 172 at the local Class-D airport, and I'd add on $50-$60/hour for the instructor. So it seems like a great deal, like you're getting the instructor for free, until you realize you're paying $135 even when you're on the ground, previewing the lesson, reviewing ground school information, preflighting the plane, or reviewing the day's flying. He handles ground school by letting you go through your choice of King/Sporty's/Gleim, and reviewing with you "as needed".

One thing I don't know is how the air vs. ground time shakes out proportion-wise for the average Part 61 student. I've been studying aviation and doing ground-school stuff on and off for 20 years, so I think I'll pick up the "book" stuff quickly and not need much review on it.

Do you think this is a good deal, or not, and why?

Thanks!
 
Have a conversation with him to discuss the fact that you may move very quickly through the ground school portion. Does his style of ground school require that you move methodically through a set curriculum, or can/does he adjust his curriculum to account for the prior knowledge of the student?

-Skip
 
It doesn't sound that great to me. I would expect an hour of ground minimum per lesson. How does he handle solo flights?
 
I'm getting ready to look for a CFI myself. I plan on pursuing a Sport Pilot license. I will do my own ground school knowledge studying on line. When I complete the course of study I will interview a few CFIs and discuss flight training costs. I would expect to follow a written syllabus of training (to go along with the 20 hours flight time required,) so that I can have a chance to memorize each lesson before I show up to brief. I would expect to spend 30 minutes briefing the flight (in order for the instructor to check my knowledge and preparedness) and another 30 minutes to preflight and start. (If I have trouble in the brief, I would expect to have to pay for additional "ground schooling" in the brief to correct my deficiencies.) I would expect to pay for that hour of instructor time the same as if it was in the air. I would expect the cost for the airplane (wet) would be a separate cost. So I would expect to combine both hourly costs for a total cost per lesson.
 
Just found this for reference from a school in Oklahoma:

The cost to get a Private Pilots Certificate is:

25 hrs Dual Instruction in Cessna 150 @ 138/hr=$3,450
25 hrs Ground Instruction @ $19/hr =$475
16 hrs Solo Practice in Cessna 150 @ 99/hr =$1,584
Books and Supplies =$200
Private Pilot Ground School =$175
Computerized FAA written test (at our site) =$150
Check Ride (Scheduled with FAA Examiner) =$400
Private Pilot Total Cost Estimate: =$6,434


The cost to get a Sport Pilot Certificate is:

15 hrs Dual Instruction in Ercoupe @ 138/hr =$2,070
15 hrs Ground Instruction at $19/hr =$285
6 hrs Solo in Ercoupe @ 99/hr =$594
Books and Supplies =$200
Sport Pilot Ground School =$175
Computerized FAA written test (at our site) =$150
Check Ride (Scheduled with FAA Examiner) =$400
Sport Pilot Total Cost Estimate: =$3,874
 
School in North Carolina.
Dual $110.00
Solo $ 80.00
Ground $ 50.00
Excellent CFI's.
 
I guess you have to define "worth it?"

First, is he any good? Good folks cost money. Folks who aren't geting ready to run off to an airline cost money. Sometimes it's better to pay more per hour for less hours.

Second, how much do other rentals cost in your area? I'd expect to pay $135+ just for the plane in many areas, assuming it's a restart Cessna 172.

Last, it's a numbers game. Add up the cost based on 60-65 hours and see where you stand.
 
Skip Miller said:
Have a conversation with him to discuss the fact that you may move very quickly through the ground school portion. Does his style of ground school require that you move methodically through a set curriculum, or can/does he adjust his curriculum to account for the prior knowledge of the student?

-Skip
Click to expand...

He seems to be quite flexible. He will let me use the at-home study materials of my choice, and then he will review with me before each lesson. If I've got it all on my own, it could take 5 minutes. If I need help learning something, it could take 50. That part seems to be totally up to me.

What is probably less flexible is the ground instruction about the techniques we are about to practice in flight. I'm sure that there is some stuff that he is going to want to review, no matter how good I seem to get it from the Kings. The kind of stuff that will kill us if I get it wrong.

John221us said:
It doesn't sound that great to me. I would expect an hour of ground minimum per lesson. How does he handle solo flights?
Click to expand...

Solo flights are the same price as dual, are the same price as ground. It's $135 an hour, no matter what.

I know that most people take more than 40 hours, but is the extra generally solo or dual time? That makes a difference in evaluating this offer.

Rates from the nearest other school:
Cessna 172: $135/h wet
Instructor: $56/h

So using some examples of the ground/dual/solo mix (I know these examples all assume 40 hours of flight, which is unrealistic, but it provides a basis for apples-to-apples comparisons):

Ground:40h (1/2 hour before and after each flight)
Dual: 20h
Solo: 20h
at the big school, this would cost me $8750. With the local guy, this would cost $10,800.

Ground: 40h
Dual: 30h
Solo: 10h
This still costs $10,800 with the local guy, but it costs $9320 at the big school.

Ground: 20h (10 minutes before, and 20 minutes after each flight)
Dual: 20h
Solo: 20h
Local guy costs $8100, big school costs $7880 - but I don't think their Jeppsen part 141 syllabus will let them do this.

I guess my point was to ask what the most likely mix of ground/dual/solo would be. How did most people's training end up getting split? The final consideration is that the local guy is out of an airport 5 minutes from me - while big school is 45-60 minutes away, and factoring in the (car) gas and time to get to big school, I would probably pay a small premium to stay local.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
I guess you have to define "worth it?"

First, is he any good? Good folks cost money. Folks who aren't geting ready to run off to an airline cost money. Sometimes it's better to pay more per hour for less hours.

Second, how much do other rentals cost in your area? I'd expect to pay $135+ just for the plane in many areas, assuming it's a restart Cessna 172.

Last, it's a numbers game. Add up the cost based on 60-65 hours and see where you stand.
Click to expand...

$135 is the going rate for a '70s 172, a restart is closer to $155.

I've only met him for 15 minutes, but he seemed good. The instructor that I took an intro lesson with at big school is building time for the airlines, but he's only got about 600 hours right now, so likely I'd get my ticket before he leaves.

I agree it's a numbers game, but since the structures of the two options are so different, I need to know how to split the hours between dual and solo, and how much ground to tack on. The more dual it takes, the better deal this becomes.

At the 25/25/16 split mentioned above, it works out to $8910 for local guy, vs. $8335 for big school. I think I'd spend $600 to stay local.

Does the FAA 40 hours include ground instruction? Or is it 40 hours of Hobbs time, in the airplane?
 
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Lots of assumptions with no real facts. To answer this I would have to answer the following.

1. How good of an instructor is he? If he is really great and the CFI at the local school is not so great, then you may be dealing with false economy. On the other hand if he is not so good, and the one at the local school is really great then you may be walking into a terrible deal. If they are equal then go to 2.
2. Do they do the ground instruction the same. My CFI(I) was not really into formal ground instruction. I did a lot of flying, but little in terms of formal ground. Prebriefs, and debriefs occurred informally while taxiing, or paying for the lesson. Didactic teaching was mostly from the Cessna/King course, and other than that I think for my PPL I was charged for about 3 or 4 hours of ground(EB6 and cross country, pre solo test, review for the checkride) and about the same for my IFR(holding patterns, review for the checkride). If one is more intensive on the ground instruction this may break or make the deal. If this is equal go to 3.
3. Who do you like better. If this is equal or you like the independent guy better, maybe he will be willing to charge you the way the school does. If not then if you like him better, it may be worth the extra money in the long run because you may learn faster, otherwise save your money and use the school.

Good luck.
 
It's a strange way to bill but not inappropriate, and it may generate extra incentive for student to be sharp and study ground materials well.

Tried and true method: Plane $X/hr + CFI $Y/hr = $Total/lesson
 
Even if you do no groundschool, you're paying him during the preflight, you're paying him while you're sitting in the plane preparing to start, you're paying him as you secure the plane.

You're going to use up, at a bare minimum, 10 minutes of his time per flight outside of when the engine is running. Works out to at least $158/hr of flight time, with zero ground school.

Billing like that makes no sense. The airplane is the most expensive part of flying. Why would you bill someone the same whether it's running or not?

It's a gamble. You might save a little. You might lose a lot. You could potentially spend a lot of money if he decides you need to listen to him teach ground school.

Personally, I would stay away unless you can get him to bill you in a more predictable way. Offer him $135/hr on the hobbs, and $50/hr for his time (whether on the ground or in the air). Take some of that risk away.
 
I used a similar method back in the day, simply because I tired of the uncertainty of weather and schedule conflicts and concluded I wasn't going to spend my life worrying about whether or not we were going to the airport.

So we set a schedule, I set the price and we did whatever we could do to move the chains when we got there. Students seemed to like it and I did too. They also knew that an hour meant "about an hour give or take" and the tie went to the runner.
 
That's a pretty terrible way to do it.

That will discourage the most important part of instruction which is the time you spend talking to the student on the ground before and after the flight. Since his costs are lower at that point there is no reason to charge that much and if he does then you're probably not going to get as much time there as you really need.

My lessons typically last about 1.2 hours in the airplane. My actual "time" being consumed is more like 2 to 3 hours. I typically charge $35/hr * hobbs time and don't worry about the rest of the time. That works out to me getting paid about $14/hr. I pay about $1500/hr in CFI insurance so it takes me about 100 hours of dual just to break even on that. I do it for the fun. If the market would take it I'd charge more like $60/hr but it just won't. Too many instructors around here doing it in the $20/hr range.

IMO your first lessons should absolutely take 3 hours of the instructor's time with about 1.2 hours of that flying.

3*$135 = $405 spent.
1.2 and 1.8 of that on the ground.
His cost on that 1.2 in the plane can't be much over $120.
$405-120 = $282 remaining
$282 / 3 = $94/hr you'd be paying him for his time

If the first lessons aren't taking 3 hours of his time then he's not doing it right.
 
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jesse said:
That's a pretty terrible way to do it.

That will discourage the most important part of instruction which is the time you spend talking to the student on the ground before and after the flight. Since his costs are lower at that point there is no reason to charge that much and if he does then you're probably not going to get as much time there as you really need.

My lessons typically last about 1.2 hours in the airplane. My actual "time" being consumed is more like 2 to 3 hours. I typically charge $35/hr * hobbs time and don't worry about the rest of the time. That works out to me getting paid about $14/hr. I pay about $1500/hr in CFI insurance so it takes me about 100 hours of dual just to break even on that. I do it for the fun. If the market would take it I'd charge more like $60/hr but it just won't. Too many instructors around here doing it in the $20/hr range.

IMO your first lessons should absolutely take 3 hours of the instructor's time with about 1.2 hours of that flying.

3*$135 = $405 spent.
1.2 and 1.8 of that on the ground.
His cost on that 1.2 in the plane can't be much over $120.
$405-120 = $282 remaining
$282 / 3 = $94/hr you'd be paying him for his time

If the first lessons aren't taking 3 hours of his time then he's not doing it right.
Click to expand...

That's how my MT instructor charged. Hobbs time only. He owned the FBO, was the CFII, A&P IA, Janitor, lawn maintenance guy etc... He owned a C150 he'd had since the 80's I'm sure turning wrenches on King Airs paid the bills and he just liked to break even and go flying.

Even if the hobbs rate was a little stiff, I wouldn't be concerned that I was gettin' charged for hangar BSing after the flight.

The one guy I thought I was going to hit it off with here, told me his clocks starts running when he walks out the door (of his house) and and stops when he gets back home. He did live closer to another airport than mine, so I offered to fly over and meet him before every lesson, nope. Time starts when I leave home. Ok, Thanks, Bye Bye now.
 
bartmc said:
In Montana .

Dual 90
Solo 65
Ground Free

Excellent CFI and had my license for less than 4K all in.
Click to expand...

jesse said:
My lessons typically last about 1.2 hours in the airplane. My actual "time" being consumed is more like 2 to 3 hours. I typically charge $35/hr * hobbs time and don't worry about the rest of the time. That works out to me getting paid about $14/hr.
Click to expand...

That's it, I'm moving to Montana.

In all seriousness, thanks Jesse, that helps a lot.
 
livitup said:
That's it, I'm moving to Montana.

In all seriousness, thanks Jesse, that helps a lot.
Click to expand...

Maybe you could move to Montana and become a dental floss farmer?

OR

I've been posting those rates for a few years on boards across the internet (Well, he's gone up 5 bucks on his wet rate in the past 3 years) and told people to head to wal-mart, buy a tent, then hitch to MT with 4K in their pocket...One guy did, left with his ticket. There's worse places to be in a tent than in the Bitterroot Valley, MT.
 
Around here free lance instructors charge $35-75 per contact hour. A decent 172 is going to rent for around $120/hour including gas. So $135/contact hour including an airplane isn't way out there.

Paying instructors only on hobbs time is ridiculous, and creates terrible negative incentives. Preflight and post flight briefing are critical to learning and progress.
 
Did MT recently pass a bill imposing state sales tax on airplane repairs? Some guy in the hangar said several states had done so and all the shops were going broke because people were flying planes to adjoining states for MX. A water-cooled 414 in the shop came from somewhere up there, supposedly for similar reasons.

bartmc said:
Maybe you could move to Montana and become a dental floss farmer?

OR

I've been posting those rates for a few years on boards across the internet (Well, he's gone up 5 bucks on his wet rate in the past 3 years) and told people to head to wal-mart, buy a tent, then hitch to MT with 4K in their pocket...One guy did, left with his ticket. There's worse places to be in a tent than in the Bitterroot Valley, MT.
Click to expand...
 
JimNtexas said:
Paying instructors only on hobbs time is ridiculous, and creates terrible negative incentives. Preflight and post flight briefing are critical to learning and progress.
Click to expand...
True, but at the same time, paying an instructor $135 for any time talking on the ground is just as ridiculous....especially if he spends any quality time covering ground stuff.

Every CFI I have flown with seems to have a slightly different scheme for charging. I've seen everything from only charging dual based on the hobbs time, charging from the minute they arrive in the parking lot to the minute you leave, charging by a block schedule to not charging for dual at all....and to be honest, I haven't seen a correlation between billing methods and quality of instruction.....so without really knowing the instructor in question I can't say whether he is a good or bad deal......I think you need to talk to some of his other clients and see how their bills stacked up.
 
wabower said:
Did MT recently pass a bill imposing state sales tax on airplane repairs? Some guy in the hangar said several states had done so and all the shops were going broke because people were flying planes to adjoining states for MX. A water-cooled 414 in the shop came from somewhere up there, supposedly for similar reasons.
Click to expand...

Highly unlikely for the state to do so. But with the fruit loops in Missoula taxing everything they see, who knows? I've only been gone 4 months and have spoken to my old AP/IA numerous times since, he hasn't mentioned it.

MT is very GA friendly, my taxes on the Bo were 25 bucks.
 
If I were the OP I'd probably see how stringent he is on his time. Does he walk in the door and say "Hi okay it is now 4:12 we are starting the clock" and then mess around and organize his stuff on your dime...or maybe on his debrief he says "Tomorrow we'll be covering xyz" and then next morning/session he says "Any questions about what we're doing today" He may be a little lenient on his time if he sees you're prepared and don't ask questions. He probably found it's how students come prepared when they have to pay *extra*. My instructor never charged me for ground time, he started charging now. But he's a family friend so he's had his share of dinners and whatnot "free" as well. I'm not sure how I'm going to do IFR training with him (since he changed his policy - but he may waive it for me if I come prepared)
 
Maybe that's the difference. I learned everything I need to know about trying to break even in the cattle business long before I started instructing, and by then the novelty had wore off.

jesse said:
That's a pretty terrible way to do it.

That will discourage the most important part of instruction which is the time you spend talking to the student on the ground before and after the flight. Since his costs are lower at that point there is no reason to charge that much and if he does then you're probably not going to get as much time there as you really need.

My lessons typically last about 1.2 hours in the airplane. My actual "time" being consumed is more like 2 to 3 hours. I typically charge $35/hr * hobbs time and don't worry about the rest of the time. That works out to me getting paid about $14/hr. I pay about $1500/hr in CFI insurance so it takes me about 100 hours of dual just to break even on that. I do it for the fun. If the market would take it I'd charge more like $60/hr but it just won't. Too many instructors around here doing it in the $20/hr range.

IMO your first lessons should absolutely take 3 hours of the instructor's time with about 1.2 hours of that flying.

3*$135 = $405 spent.
1.2 and 1.8 of that on the ground.
His cost on that 1.2 in the plane can't be much over $120.
$405-120 = $282 remaining
$282 / 3 = $94/hr you'd be paying him for his time

If the first lessons aren't taking 3 hours of his time then he's not doing it right.
Click to expand...
 
Wish I could find a good golf instructor for $14 an hour.
 
So I called the guy back and asked him to clarify his fee structure, since something wasn't making sense. Turns out he's closer to Jesse's model than I thought.

He charges $135/hobbs hour (for instruction and wet rental of his 172) for dual and solo, but he doesn't charge for pre- and post-flight reviews, as long as they are "reasonable" in length. He charges $40/hour for ground, but that would only be charged if I ask him to teach me a particular subject/concept from scratch. Basically he expects me to pay attention to the ground course I take, and for him not to be teaching ground, but more using or reinforcing the ground that I do independently. As long as I'm keeping up, then he wouldn't charge at all for ground time.

After talking to him again, I'm starting to see a picture of a retired pilot who teaches for fun, and doesn't want to bother with complicated accounting of hours of ground, hobbs, etc. He just wants to teach, and break even on the gas and maintenance, while getting some new pilots in the air. He was finishing up some IR training with another student when I stopped by the airport today, and I ran into the student in the airport parking lot when I left. The student gave a great review of the CFI, and had nothing to complain about regarding the cost.

I think I'm going to go for it! :)
 
livitup said:
So I called the guy back and asked him to clarify his fee structure, since something wasn't making sense. Turns out he's closer to Jesse's model than I thought.

He charges $135/hobbs hour (for instruction and wet rental of his 172) for dual and solo, but he doesn't charge for pre- and post-flight reviews, as long as they are "reasonable" in length. He charges $40/hour for ground, but that would only be charged if I ask him to teach me a particular subject/concept from scratch. Basically he expects me to pay attention to the ground course I take, and for him not to be teaching ground, but more using or reinforcing the ground that I do independently. As long as I'm keeping up, then he wouldn't charge at all for ground time.

After talking to him again, I'm starting to see a picture of a retired pilot who teaches for fun, and doesn't want to bother with complicated accounting of hours of ground, hobbs, etc. He just wants to teach, and break even on the gas and maintenance, while getting some new pilots in the air. He was finishing up some IR training with another student when I stopped by the airport today, and I ran into the student in the airport parking lot when I left. The student gave a great review of the CFI, and had nothing to complain about regarding the cost.

I think I'm going to go for it! :)
Click to expand...

I would do that in a heartbeat.
 
wabower said:
Did MT recently pass a bill imposing state sales tax on airplane repairs? Some guy in the hangar said several states had done so and all the shops were going broke because people were flying planes to adjoining states for MX. A water-cooled 414 in the shop came from somewhere up there, supposedly for similar reasons.
Click to expand...

The water cooled 414 owner might be just trying to get it as far as possible from home in the hope that it can't find it's way home!:dunno::D
 
livitup said:
So I called the guy back and asked him to clarify his fee structure, since something wasn't making sense. Turns out he's closer to Jesse's model than I thought.

He charges $135/hobbs hour (for instruction and wet rental of his 172) for dual and solo, but he doesn't charge for pre- and post-flight reviews, as long as they are "reasonable" in length. He charges $40/hour for ground, but that would only be charged if I ask him to teach me a particular subject/concept from scratch. Basically he expects me to pay attention to the ground course I take, and for him not to be teaching ground, but more using or reinforcing the ground that I do independently. As long as I'm keeping up, then he wouldn't charge at all for ground time.

After talking to him again, I'm starting to see a picture of a retired pilot who teaches for fun, and doesn't want to bother with complicated accounting of hours of ground, hobbs, etc. He just wants to teach, and break even on the gas and maintenance, while getting some new pilots in the air. He was finishing up some IR training with another student when I stopped by the airport today, and I ran into the student in the airport parking lot when I left. The student gave a great review of the CFI, and had nothing to complain about regarding the cost.

I think I'm going to go for it! :)
Click to expand...


This sounds very fair and reasonable. I'd go for it myself.
 
Remember that 20 hours is just the minimum requirement for SP cert. I earned mine about 18 months ago. I had about 45 hours. I did a little extra training at my request to feel comfortable as well as some night flying which isn't required (as you can't fly after civil twilight as a SP). I think some structure to the training is good to expect but also expect that there are going to be times when it will take more or less time, pre and post flight. I used online training for my ground school and my written test. They worked well for me. I ended up doing a pre-check ride with another instructor and that worked out well. So in total I did two pre-checks with two different instructors. I guess the point is that of all the folks I know who have gotten their SP cert at a school dedicated to SP training, I only know of one person who got their SP cert in 20 hours.

Carl

OrangeOkie said:
Just found this for reference from a school in Oklahoma:

The cost to get a Private Pilots Certificate is:

25 hrs Dual Instruction in Cessna 150 @ 138/hr=$3,450
25 hrs Ground Instruction @ $19/hr =$475
16 hrs Solo Practice in Cessna 150 @ 99/hr =$1,584
Books and Supplies =$200
Private Pilot Ground School =$175
Computerized FAA written test (at our site) =$150
Check Ride (Scheduled with FAA Examiner) =$400
Private Pilot Total Cost Estimate: =$6,434


The cost to get a Sport Pilot Certificate is:

15 hrs Dual Instruction in Ercoupe @ 138/hr =$2,070
15 hrs Ground Instruction at $19/hr =$285
6 hrs Solo in Ercoupe @ 99/hr =$594
Books and Supplies =$200
Sport Pilot Ground School =$175
Computerized FAA written test (at our site) =$150
Check Ride (Scheduled with FAA Examiner) =$400
Sport Pilot Total Cost Estimate: =$3,874
Click to expand...
 
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