What do you mean turn off the landing light?

[Jaybird180]

Sure, but that happens in low ceiling IMC, taking out your NAV/COM you're not going to have a fun time. Happens in the DC SFRA or crossing international lines taking out your two way and transponder, not going to be fun ether.

Point is, I'd treat this as a no electrical system aircraft until this issue is resolved.

Lost comma procedures. The system was built that way.

 

[Jaybird180]

Alternator or Generator, which has the less HP consumption from the engine?

 

[James331]

Lost comma procedures. The system was built that way.

Mmmk,

So you're IMC at 7k, solid IFR for days, ceilings are say 500', lost comms, sure, but how do you get down without death and destruction, without electrical power, at least in my plane, my GNS430, GNS530, transponder, EHSI, secondary nav head, marker indicator, stec, etc, etc, none of that stuff is going to work, this makes shooting a approach or navigation a wee bit tuff eh?

 

[Perezhr]

Had a 50 amp generator in my old Mooney that worked well. As I started adding toys to the panel I really started to tax the generator. Eventually, with everything on including 250 watt landing light and pitot heat the generator was near maxed out. Decided that flying like that in IFR conditions was not smart. Did the alternator conversion (70 amp alternator) and replaced the lights with LEDs. The Plane Power conversion (new starter and alternator) was 15 pounds lighter.

 

[mkosmo]

L.E.D.

Repeat it over and over until you replace all your lights with them.

And you will kiss your generator if you ever lose a battery in podunkville. Alternators need a good battery to 'excite' their field to make them work. With a genny, you can get a jump from a car and it will run everything with no battery at all. Just keep the RPM's up a little on taxi.

If only LEDs for airplanes weren't stupid expensive, except the landing light.

 

[ollopa]

Wait, aren't you one of the ones who jumped all over PrincessPilot?

No, I dug up proof that she wasn't a troll and defended that position. Some of the codgers on here who still use a landline to access the Internet were creeped out to see a person's public Internet footprint for the first time, so I deleted my post.

I certainly wasn't one of the people who insisted that she wear a barbed strapon, or that she is a bad person for feeling blessed to inherit money, or that her post was so suspicious that she had to prove to all of us that she was real in order to not be treated like Obama in the SZ.

 

[gismo]

I'd like to add a couple suggestions for the OP WRT her first post:

1) I strongly recommend installing some sort of voltmeter on the airplane, preferably one that has an alert function. Ammeters are a lousy indication of the state of your electrical system for two reasons. One is that unless you scan it regularly (like every 5 minutes or less) even a significant discharge indication is likely to go unnoticed until the battery is pretty much discharged. The other is that the "normal" indication (very slight charge) of an ammeter looks a lot like an abnormal one in many cases.

With a voltmeter any time you see less than 13-14 volts you know you have a problem and if 14 is normal it will drop below 13.5 well before the battery loses any energy giving you plenty of time to shed loads and/or reset the regulator. And for very little money you can get a voltmeter that will flash the display or light a separate indicator the instant the voltage drops lower than normal. As you discovered, losing electrical power isn't much of a crisis if you're VFR in the daytime but it can cause serious issues for IFR or night flight.

BTW if you have a portable GPS like a Garmin x96 (very handy in an electrical failure situation) it can serve as the voltmeter/alerter if it's wired to ship's power.

2) Despite what your CFI told you, a "backfire" at takeoff power is NOT something to ignore. It's likely he meant that these engines can and do backfire when you close the throttle on final (because the mixture is too rich) and in that situation I wouldn't be concerned but once the engine is up to full power, any stumble, backfire, etc should be considered serious and assuming there was sufficient runway for stopping an abort would be the right response. This could be a stuck valve (which could then cause a bent pushrod), a problem with the carburetor (which might cause long term damage to the engine), or magneto crossfire (which can destroy an engine in a matter of seconds).

 

[ollopa]

He might have been, but I wasn't.
But how about this?
I have a Million dollars (monopoly money) that is hers if she can prove that she is as pretty as her avatar!

Just kiddin Rachel!
Welcome to POA.

And there it is. You're a woman first and a pilot second on this board.

Better change the avatar to something more like this before the D picks start filling up the inbox!

 

[txflyer]

If only LEDs for airplanes weren't stupid expensive, except the landing light.

$34.95 for nav lights replacement bulbs if you don't care about STC PMA'd BS.

I mean really, what kind of anal retentive FAA guy is going to dissasemble your wing lights and say "hey! your l.e.d. replacement bulb is not STC'd!.



https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/el/ledlighting_vwing/lednavlightsreplacement.php

 

[timwinters]

He wouldn't need to disassemble it. You can clearly see the individual LEDs through the lens just like you can on newer cars.

That's an attractive price point though. A "normal" lamp costs that much or more.

 

[Challenged]

I sucked it up and paid the enormous overcharge for STC'd LEDs; pretty annoying, but I really like having them.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

Elaborate?

A loss of power is one scenario where I'd either abort or return to the airport immediately.

Carbureted engine. Too much throttle too quickly chokes the engine. Like I explained a few times now, I have a definite memory of my CFI telling me to not worry about backfires because that's just what these engines do sometimes. Hence, I thought it was a backfire, listened to the advice of my old instructor, and continued on.

It is for good reason this post is in the "Lessons Learned" topic.

 

[Bill]

Mmmk,

So you're IMC at 7k, solid IFR for days, ceilings are say 500', lost comms, sure, but how do you get down without death and destruction, without electrical power, at least in my plane, my GNS430, GNS530, transponder, EHSI, secondary nav head, marker indicator, stec, etc, etc, none of that stuff is going to work, this makes shooting a approach or navigation a wee bit tuff eh?

Fly the approach on the 496, or other handheld. Not legal, but it will get you in.

 

[RotorDude]

A backfire is an uncontained explosion, which can be a very serious event. For example, your muffler can be destroyed by a single backfire, and that can cause exhaust gas obstruction which can result in loss of engine power.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

2) Despite what your CFI told you, a "backfire" at takeoff power is NOT something to ignore. It's likely he meant that these engines can and do backfire when you close the throttle on final (because the mixture is too rich) and in that situation I wouldn't be concerned but once the engine is up to full power, any stumble, backfire, etc should be considered serious and assuming there was sufficient runway for stopping an abort would be the right response. This could be a stuck valve (which could then cause a bent pushrod), a problem with the carburetor (which might cause long term damage to the engine), or magneto crossfire (which can destroy an engine in a matter of seconds).

Yeah, I know, that's why I posted this in the "Lessons Learned" topic, as I've said before. I acted on what I was taught by someone who I had (at the time) no reason to question and every reason to trust. Can you blame me for acting on that? Thank to my boyfriend's love of all things with engines, he explained to me why that noise and power loss happened. Now knowing how my power plant works, I can be (almost) certain the problem was nothing serious and simply, too much throttle too quickly on a carbureted engine.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

To clear things up, I said "backfire" in the OP because that's what I thought it was when it happened. I was taught to ignore such backfires which is why I did not abort the takeoff.

The noise I heard, in fact, was not a backfire at all. The noise was caused by me choking the engine since I throttled in too quickly. My dad has been the only mechanic on this airplane since owning it. If there's anything you should trust in this world, it's that a father will take every last precaution to ensure his daughter's safety.

 

[SkyDog58]

And there it is. You're a woman first and a pilot second on this board.

Better change the avatar to something more like this before the D picks start filling up the inbox!

Nah, that wouldn't work. Henning would still hit that.

 

[StevieTimes]

And there it is. You're a woman first and a pilot second on this board.

Better change the avatar to something more like this before the D picks start filling up the inbox!

Hi, I am the Stevie Tiiiiiiiiiiimes... perhaps you've heard of me?

 

[SkyDog58]

No, I dug up proof that she wasn't a troll and defended that position. Some of the codgers on here who still use a landline to access the Internet were creeped out to see a person's public Internet footprint for the first time, so I deleted my post.

I certainly wasn't one of the people who insisted that she wear a barbed strapon, or that she is a bad person for feeling blessed to inherit money, or that her post was so suspicious that she had to prove to all of us that she was real in order to not be treated like Obama in the SZ.

That was probably it. I just recalled that you drew some fire for something you posted on that thread but could not recall what it was and was too lazy to go back and look.

Who knew that POA had birthers.

 

[Bill]

The noise was caused by me choking the engine since I throttled in too quickly.

All:

Do aircraft carbs have accelerator pumps? An engine stumbling when the throttle is opened quickly sounds like an accelerator pump problem, at least it would be on a car.

 

[ollopa]

All:
Do aircraft carbs have accelerator pumps?

I was told they do.

 

[James331]

Fly the approach on the 496, or other handheld. Not legal, but it will get you in.

Have fun with that one.

I'd rather just fix my damn electrical system

 

[JOhnH]

Have fun with that one.

I'd rather just fix my damn electrical system

It's a lot easier to fly the approach with the handheld than it is to fix the electrical problem, while you are in the air.

But I do agree that since she is now on the ground she should get the problem fixed before flying again.

People seem to forget that she posted this in "lessons learned" for a reason.

 

[Bill]

Have fun with that one.

I'd rather just fix my damn electrical system

In case of emergency, break glass.

 

[James331]

In case of emergency, break glass.

True

But don't make future emergencies for yourself by flying IMC with a chitty generator and/or amp meter too :wink2:

 

[Bill]

True

But don't make future emergencies for yourself by flying IMC with a chitty generator and/or amp meter too :wink2:

Agree

 

[Jaybird180]

It's a lot easier to fly the approach with the handheld than it is to fix the electrical problem, while you are in the air.

But I do agree that since she is now on the ground she should get the problem fixed before flying again.

People seem to forget that she posted this in "lessons learned" for a reason.

I think we might need a "no bustin' chops rule" for posts in LL. Caveat: if the OPs words indicate that they didn't learn the right lesson or fully understand what occurred.

Example: I used to coach a new motorcyclist. One day a guy I was riding with ran into the back of a car. He was following me about 4000 yards back. I stopped before running into the car. He said that he should have downshifted. I could not get him to accept the idea that the brake would have been far more effective. That's an example of learning the wrong lesson.

 

[Bill]

I could not get him to accept the idea that the brake would have been far more effective.

But, he might go over the bars

I'm surprised he didn't "have to lay it down"

 

[JHW]

$34.95 for nav lights replacement bulbs if you don't care about STC PMA'd BS.

the incandescents are <$1. My plane has 5 of them. I'n not spending $150 on nav lights that I haven't touched in years anyway.

 

[JHW]

This thread is classic. Someone loses power while VFR in central Kansas and they get chastised that they's be in big trouble if they happened to be in the washington DC area in IMC when that happened. I must be seeing colors wrong because it seems like the red board to me. A bunch of people thumping their chest about who knows the most FAR's or who is the most "professional"

 

[Jaybird180]

But, he might go over the bars

I'm surprised he didn't "have to lay it down"

Don't know if you've experienced this:

I was running a trackday a few years ago at Summit Point Main and decided to move my brake marker further. What was uncalculated by me at the time was that there was another power gain at the RPM range where my former brake marker was.

So when I moved the brake marker further, the engine at WOT gave significantly more thrust in the upper band of the RPM range. I had to haul on the front brake hard enough that I literally thought my eyes had popped out of the sockets

Front brakes are really strong. And I hadn't lifted the rear wheel yet.

 

[James331]

This thread is classic. Someone loses power while VFR in central Kansas and they get chastised that they's be in big trouble if they happened to be in the washington DC area in IMC when that happened. I must be seeing colors wrong because it seems like the red board to me. A bunch of people thumping their chest about who knows the most FAR's or who is the most "professional"

You missed a few parts

The main issue for many, myself included, wasn't a electrical failure during day VMC, it was how she saw different signs that she was going to have a issue, the discharge and also the backfiring engine, and just kept on going.


No chastising, well minus her CFI who gave her some chit advice, as she said lesson learned, and that's the important part, she learned a few things, no one hurt, no metal bent, no ****ed off Feds.

 

[Bill]

So when I moved the brake marker further, the engine at WOT gave significantly more thrust in the upper band of the RPM range. I had to haul on the front brake hard enough that I literally thought my eyes had popped out of the sockets

I use Jesus as my brake marker

Front brakes are really strong. And I hadn't lifted the rear wheel yet.

Yeah, race compound tires on clean pavement stick REALLY well.

 

[Dan Thomas]

A backfire is an uncontained explosion, which can be a very serious event. For example, your muffler can be destroyed by a single backfire, and that can cause exhaust gas obstruction which can result in loss of engine power.

A "backfire" is actually just that: a fire back through the induction system, not the exhaust. Commonly caused by mixtures that are too lean or too rich. An "afterfire" is what most people call a backfire. Afterfiring is in the exhaust system and can indeed cause a pile of damage.

Opening the throttle too quickly is bad for two reasons: it upsets the mixture ratio and can cause misfiring issues, or it can cause brief detonation, which is something we should avoid. That heavy propeller takes time to accelerate, and in the meantime the pistons are travelling slowly enough to allow detonation time to happen if the pressures get high enough.

 

[ollopa]

But, he might go over the bars

Even worse, he might wear out those expensive brake pads. Far better to engine-brake and put the wear and tear on all those cheaper parts while rear-ending some stopped traffic.

 

[Dan Thomas]

All:

Do aircraft carbs have accelerator pumps? An engine stumbling when the throttle is opened quickly sounds like an accelerator pump problem, at least it would be on a car.

Most do, but there are many older airplanes without them and some newer models. The Lycoming O-235 series often doesn't have them. Working the throttle gently avoids problems. On my old Stromberg carb on my A-65, which has no accelerator pump, I never miss it. The engine accelerates quite handily without it.

 

[ollopa]

The real lesson learned is to wear a suit of armor before posting, or just don't post at all.

Since the alternator conversion is too expensive, perhaps the more reasonable alternative is to one day sell the plane and buy another equipped with an alternator. Might even make a buck.

 

[Rykymus]

The biggest lesson I'm seeing here is exactly what I consider to be my most important lesson from my first year of aircraft ownership and flying. "Question all advice given to you, regardless of the source."

There is a **it-ton of bad advice floating around, much of it handed down from one dumb CFI to another over the decades. Ask any question on a forum and you're likely to get 10 completely different answers. The thing is, they all believe they are right, and none of them are trying to give bad advice on purpose.

My first two CFIs gave me advice that I later discovered (through experience and research) to be incorrect. In retrospect, I am thankful that my last CFI (the one who took me through the rest of my PPL) was not afraid to say "I don't know, let's look it up" and was willing to investigate anything I challenged.

As the PIC, you have to make the decisions. Right or wrong, it's your call. You will make bad choices. We all do. You just have to make sure that you're not choosing to charge into something you're not prepared to deal with.

The only statement in the OP's original post that concerned me was the "loss of power" that came along with the backfire. Any loss of power would have cause me to abort the landing, but that's just me. Other's, having the power come back, would've continued the takeoff roll.

Were you right or were you wrong? It's not for me to say, as it wasn't my butt in the pilot's seat. I can only say what I would have done differently.

 

[Jaybird180]

I use Jesus as my brake marker
.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

Do aircraft carbs have accelerator pumps? An engine stumbling when the throttle is opened quickly sounds like an accelerator pump problem, at least it would be on a car.

Most do, but there are many older airplanes without them and some newer models. The Lycoming O-235 series often doesn't have them. Working the throttle gently avoids problems. On my old Stromberg carb on my A-65, which has no accelerator pump, I never miss it. The engine accelerates quite handily without it.

I have a Continental O-470R. I am pretty sure it does not have an accelerator pump, but then, I guess I've never really looked for it.