What do you mean turn off the landing light?

rachelk.tailwinds

rachelk.tailwinds

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Rachel
Since this is my first post, I figured it might as well be a vulnerable one!

I have ASEL and a high-performance endorsement with about 100 hours.
I'm part owner of a 1962 182.
We had a new audio control panel installed and a fresh annual directly before this trip.

I was leaving on vacation from KFTG (Denver) to KLBL (Liberal, KS) when I heard something like a backfire and loss of power on takeoff. My boyfriend, Austin, who is a gear head by every definition but who is not a pilot seemed worried but trusted my decision to continue the takeoff. I made this decision after quickly thinking back to my primary flight training days and a moment which I vividly remember my CFI saying, "don't worry about backfires, these engines just do that sometimes." The 2 1/2 hour flight to LBL was perfect, the new radios work great, there were no problems with the navigation or the engine gauges or anything. We had a mechanic at the FBO, Steve Lyddon (great guy, highly recommend him and his FBO), check out the engine, after which he said it was a very strong engine and doubted it ever backfiring.

The next day, we left for KFOE (Topeka, KS). Again, everything was absolutely perfect. Along the way, Austin commented that the ammeter was showing a discharge I sloughed it off for God knows what reason. This was a 3 hour leg and about 10 minutes out from the airport, just as soon as I had the field in sigh: dead silence. I wasn't hearing ATC anymore and they certainly were not hearing me. I had a handheld radio on board and though it's old, a little weak, and tough to hear over the engine, after squawking 7600, I could hear them repeat a few times to me that I was cleared to land.

Upon landing, we started racking our brains trying to figure out what went wrong. Was it the new audio control panel? Probably. Was it the generator? Could have been. Voltage regulator? Maybe.

While grounded in Topeka, my mechanic (also conveniently my dad) and I tried remotely troubleshooting the problem without finding much of a solution. We took the battery to a nearby auto parts store and were able to rule out that possibility since it easily took and held a charge.

After a few days of running around like a chicken with its head cut off, I determined that the airplane was safe to fly, but that we would have to leave the radios off for as much of the flight as possible to conserve battery. After leaving the FOE airspace, I turned off the radios and headed right down I-70 all the way home to FTG. Sometime after reaching our cruise altitued, I flipped off the landing lights and thought to myself, hmm... I think I forgot that part on the first two legs.

A week later, after having the generator, voltage regulator, battery, and audio control panel tested and running through every step I made, alas, we found that I ran that whopping 15 amp landing light the whole two legs and sucked the battery clean dry, which is why the airplane started load shedding the radios 2 hours and 50 minutes into the flight from LBL.

And the backfire? Well, let's just say I learned a little something about carbureted engines, too. ;)
 
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You seem to make some interesting decisions always erring on the side of "everything's OK". Might want to start being more cautious and learning your systems a little more, especially at 100hrs.

If I had a odd sound or unexpected backfire on takeoff and ether reject the takeoff or circle back for the airport, and how do you shrug off a discharge?
 
Oh. My. God.

Here we go again, beating up on new a poster.

It's amazing we get any new people on this forum at all.

To the original poster: welcome to POA. Thanks for your post, and ignore the grumpy people. Sounds like you are doing what most of us lower time pilots do each flight: we learn and improve.

Perhaps an LED landing light should be on your Christmas list?
 
RalphInCA said:
Oh. My. God.

Here we go again, beating up on new a poster.
Click to expand...

Seriously.

A.) Yes, there are a few red flags of questionable ADM within the post...Lets see if those that are willing to help can out number those that are are gonna bash the OP.

B.) Lets start with the initial question...a 15A landing light should not singularly take out your radios. There is an underlying problem somewhere.
 
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RalphInCA said:
She obviously meant high performance endorsement.
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Haha, yes, thank you. I'll go fix that.

Here's the thing, James331, I went about a year without flying at that point, so I depended on memories from my primary flight training for decision making. Since learning how wrong my CFI was about backfires, I've questioned everything I learned from him. Which in turn, I believe has given me more experience in 100 hours than most people get in 200. I was told by a Certified Flight Instructor to not worry about backfires. I learn well and head most of what is taught to me, which is why I acted on it.

Regarding the ammeter, I thought back to when I bought the airplane. The broker said that gauge had a tendency to not be very accurate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if it was inaccurate, I should have placarded it "inop" but I am human and just forgot it. (Perhaps I should have posted this anonymously so I don't get reported for it!) Everything else was indicating well and sounding healthy, so I didn't panic. Anyway, turns out that gauge DOES work. And now I know to check on it every now and then.

Guess that's just difference with how you and I process information, James331, eh?
 
Shawn said:
Seriously.

A.) Yes, there are a few red flags of questionable ADM within the post...Lets see if those that are willing to help can out number those that are are gonna bash the OP.

B.) Lets start with the initial question...a 15A landing light should not singularly take out your radios. There is an underlying problem somewhere.
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That.

Didn't mean to come off as a jerk, just trying to point out a few things that could bite you in the butt as you log more hours, I think everyone would like to see you have a long stay in aviation without any accidents or incidents.

As was said you should be able to fly around all day long with all your lights on and not have a issue.

Second, yeah some airplanes make some different noises, which is OK, but when you hear a new sound or something out of the norm, land as soon as practicable and figure it out.

If you see a discharge power down everything you can, try to land somewhere where no radios won't be a issue.
 
Shawn said:
Seriously.

A.) Yes, there are a few red flags of questionable ADM within the post...Lets see if those that are willing to help can out number those that are are gonna bash the OP.

B.) Lets start with the initial question...a 15A landing light should not singularly take out your radios. There is an underlying problem somewhere.
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Yeah, I'll tell you, I probably learned more in that one cross-country than I did in all of my PPL flight training. I went to one of those high-volume 141 flight schools where I think they focused more on passing the checkride than true preparedness. Lesson learned there, too.

Of course that wasn't the sole contributor... I also had the beacon, nav lights, both comms, and auto pilot on. Since the battery didn't charge at the stop in LBL, I imagine it had about half a charge left on the leg to FOE. Having all of those on for 5 1/2 hours at about 2300 rpm is what did it but turning the landing light off would have at least stopped it from discharging so quickly.
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
Yeah, I'll tell you, I probably learned more in that one cross-country than I did in all of my PPL flight training. I went to one of those high-volume 141 flight schools where I think they focused more on passing the checkride than true preparedness. Lesson learned there, too.

Of course that wasn't the sole contributor... I also had the beacon, nav lights, both comms, and auto pilot on. Since the battery didn't charge at the stop in LBL, I imagine it had about half a charge left on the leg to FOE. Having all of those on for 5 1/2 hours at about 2300 rpm is what did it but turning the landing light off would have at least stopped it from discharging so quickly.
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Was the alternator out of the game completely, or was the draw just greater than the alternator could produce, this draining the battery? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see the alternator come up in the OP.
 
mkosmo said:
Was the alternator out of the game completely, or was the draw just greater than the alternator could produce, this draining the battery? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see the alternator come up in the OP.
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She doesn't have an alternator, just a generator. I'm not sure when they started equipping the 182 with alternators instead but it was definitely after 1962.
 
Another one to the Colorado POA list! Are you based at FTG?
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
She doesn't have an alternator, just a generator. I'm not sure when they started equipping the 182 with alternators instead but it was definitely after 1962.
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If you're running all that load, AP etc and if you're ever going to get your IFR Id do a alternator conversion, plus figuring out if your amp meter is actually broke of if the gen is broke (my guess) and someone BSed you about it just being bad gauges.

Also would be wise to log some time with a CFI with 182 experience, sorry to hear about your bad experience with your last CFI.

-James331
 
Good write up, welcome aboard. Glad it all worked out and you didn't scare your BF too badly!
 
Unregistered said:
If you're running all that load, AP etc and if you're ever going to get your IFR Id do a alternator conversion, plus figuring out if your amp meter is actually broke of if the gen is broke (my guess) and someone BSed you about it just being bad gauges.

Also would be wise to log some time with a CFI with 182 experience, sorry to hear about your bad experience with your last CFI.

-James331
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We had the generator and voltage regulator checked out as soon as I got back and they both passed with flying colors. I don't know if it's true or not, but I once read that generators, even though they are heavier and don't charge under 1200 rpm or so, they are more reliable than alternators. Mostly, I just can't imagine a conversion like that being in my budget at the moment.

I've been trying for a while to find a decent instructor so I can start my instrument rating but as you could imagine, I'm a bit more particular this time around.
 
Yeah, Welcome to PoA: Someone will be along to insult you in earnest shortly. :rolleyes:
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
We had the generator and voltage regulator checked out as soon as I got back and they both passed with flying colors. I don't know if it's true or not, but I once read that generators, even though they are heavier and don't charge under 1200 rpm or so, they are more reliable than alternators. Mostly, I just can't imagine a conversion like that being in my budget at the moment.

I've been trying for a while to find a decent instructor so I can start my instrument rating but as you could imagine, I'm a bit more particular this time around.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, Gens are great for turbine aircraft but there is a reason you don't see new piston planes with them and many folks convert.

For VMC ops no biggie, but I wouldn't want to be in IMC with a old generator system and if your landing light caused that issue you got a major question mark in your electrical system. Good news is you're probably 12V so you could jump it with a car, I'd also learn how to properly hand flip that prop, part of flying behind a iffy system.

Money if a big factor of course, have fun but just avoid night or IMC till you have it squared up would be my strong suggestion.

-James331
 
Alternators are far more reliable than generators, produce more power for the money, last longer, weigh less, and generate just fine at idle. An old 20 or 35 amp generator can have trouble keeping up with the electrical loads at night, even in cruise. A 60-amp alternator has no trouble at all.
 
Unregistered said:
Fair enough, Gens are great for turbine aircraft but there is a reason you don't see new piston planes with them and many folks convert.

For VMC ops no biggie, but I wouldn't want to be in IMC with a old generator system and if your landing light caused that issue you got a major question mark in your electrical system. Good news is you're probably 12V so you could jump it with a car, I'd also learn how to properly hand flip that prop, part of flying behind a iffy system.

Money if a big factor of course, have fun but just avoid night or IMC till you have it squared up would be my strong suggestion.

-James331
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Aw...Phooey

Lose electrical then you're NORDO. You lose Turn and Bank Indicator. You're not going to crash and burn or spin into oblivion. Stop trying to scare people James331.

And in this case, the OP has a backup handheld, so she's still got comms.
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
Since this is my first post, I figured it might as well be a vulnerable one!

I have ASEL and a high-performance endorsement with about 100 hours.
I'm part owner of a 1962 182.
We had a new audio control panel installed and a fresh annual directly before this trip.

I was leaving on vacation from KFTG (Denver) to KLBL (Liberal, KS) when I heard something like a backfire and loss of power on takeoff. My boyfriend, Austin, who is a gear head by every definition but who is not a pilot seemed worried but trusted my decision to continue the takeoff. I made this decision after quickly thinking back to my primary flight training days and a moment which I vividly remember my CFI saying, "don't worry about backfires, these engines just do that sometimes." The 2 1/2 hour flight to LBL was perfect, the new radios work great, there were no problems with the navigation or the engine gauges or anything. We had a mechanic at the FBO, Steve Lyddon (great guy, highly recommend him and his FBO), check out the engine, after which he said it was a very strong engine and doubted it ever backfiring.

The next day, we left for KFOE (Topeka, KS). Again, everything was absolutely perfect. Along the way, Austin commented that the ammeter was showing a discharge I sloughed it off for God knows what reason. This was a 3 hour leg and about 10 minutes out from the airport, just as soon as I had the field in sigh: dead silence. I wasn't hearing ATC anymore and they certainly were not hearing me. I had a handheld radio on board and though it's old, a little weak, and tough to hear over the engine, after squawking 7600, I could hear them repeat a few times to me that I was cleared to land.

Upon landing, we started racking our brains trying to figure out what went wrong. Was it the new audio control panel? Probably. Was it the generator? Could have been. Voltage regulator? Maybe.

While grounded in Topeka, my mechanic (also conveniently my dad) and I tried remotely troubleshooting the problem without finding much of a solution. We took the battery to a nearby auto parts store and were able to rule out that possibility since it easily took and held a charge.

After a few days of running around like a chicken with its head cut off, I determined that the airplane was safe to fly, but that we would have to leave the radios off for as much of the flight as possible to conserve battery. After leaving the FOE airspace, I turned off the radios and headed right down I-70 all the way home to FTG. Sometime after reaching our cruise altitued, I flipped off the landing lights and thought to myself, hmm... I think I forgot that part on the first two legs.

A week later, after having the generator, voltage regulator, battery, and audio control panel tested and running through every step I made, alas, we found that I ran that whopping 15 amp landing light the whole two legs and sucked the battery clean dry, which is why the airplane started load shedding the radios 2 hours and 50 minutes into the flight from LBL.

And the backfire? Well, let's just say I learned a little something about carbureted engines, too. ;)
Click to expand...

Don't ignore your boyfriends or any PAX observations, He gave you two separate indicators that very well could have been the 1st link in the chain.

Lesson learned thank you for sharing and Welcome to POA!!!
 
Welcome to POA ,hope you have thick skin,there is a lot of good info on the forum but also a large group of negative posters. Go fly and have fun.
 
frfly172 said:
Welcome to POA ,hope you have thick skin,there is a lot of good info on the forum but also a large group of negative posters. Go fly and have fun.
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Yeah, the motto of quite a few here is:

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rachelk.tailwinds said:
She doesn't have an alternator, just a generator. I'm not sure when they started equipping the 182 with alternators instead but it was definitely after 1962.
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Bad assumption on my part. I'm in the camp recommending a swap when you have the means and motivation.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Wait, aren't you one of the ones who jumped all over PrincessPilot?
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He might have been, but I wasn't.
But how about this?
I have a Million dollars (monopoly money) that is hers if she can prove that she is as pretty as her avatar! :D

Just kiddin Rachel!
Welcome to POA.
 
JOhnH said:
He might have been, but I wasn't.
But how about this?
I have a Million dollars (monopoly money) that is hers if she can prove that she is as pretty as her avatar! :D

Just kiddin Rachel!
Welcome to POA.
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How much will you give me if I prove that I am far uglier than her avatar? :dunno:


:lol:


Won't be hard to do. :no:
 
Jaybird180 said:
Aw...Phooey

Lose electrical then you're NORDO. You lose Turn and Bank Indicator. You're not going to crash and burn or spin into oblivion. Stop trying to scare people James331.

And in this case, the OP has a backup handheld, so she's still got comms.
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Sure, but that happens in low ceiling IMC, taking out your NAV/COM you're not going to have a fun time. Happens in the DC SFRA or crossing international lines taking out your two way and transponder, not going to be fun ether.

Point is, I'd treat this as a no electrical system aircraft until this issue is resolved.
 
L.E.D.

Repeat it over and over until you replace all your lights with them.

And you will kiss your generator if you ever lose a battery in podunkville. Alternators need a good battery to 'excite' their field to make them work. With a genny, you can get a jump from a car and it will run everything with no battery at all. Just keep the RPM's up a little on taxi.
 
txflyer said:
L.E.D.

Repeat it over and over until you replace all your lights with them.

And you will kiss your generator if you ever lose a battery in podunkville. Alternators need a good battery to 'excite' their field to make them work. With a genny, you can get a jump from a car and it will run everything with no battery at all. Just keep the RPM's up a little on taxi.
Click to expand...

I didn't know that, The only thing I ever had with a generator was an old 6v MF35 tractor I had but I converted it to 12v alternator.
 
txflyer said:
L.E.D.

Repeat it over and over until you replace all your lights with them.

And you will kiss your generator if you ever lose a battery in podunkville. Alternators need a good battery to 'excite' their field to make them work. With a genny, you can get a jump from a car and it will run everything with no battery at all. Just keep the RPM's up a little on taxi.
Click to expand...

An alternator will also wake up and go to work with a jump from a car. A jump is the same as having a good battery powering everything.

The only time an alternator won't wake up is if the battery is totally flat and you have to hand-prop the airplane. It has too little residual magnetism in the rotor to generate the bit of voltage needed to overcome the forward resistance of the diodes in it. A generator doesn't have those diodes. Some airplanes use a set of flashlight batteries in a holder to kick-start the alternator in such cases.

The alternator, in spite of that one little shortcoming, is far better than the generator. It uses tiny brushes and smooth slip rings to power the rotating field instead of the generator's huge brushes and segmented commutator to take the generated power off the armature. That commutator can be a pain. The alternator doesn't need the reverse-current cutout relay; its diodes do that, and it also generates considerable amperage at idle, which the generator cannot. It weighs half as much as a generator and produces double the power.

There are some really good reasons automakers abandoned generators 50 years ago.
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
l directly before this trip.

I was leaving on vacation from KFTG (Denver) to KLBL (Liberal, KS) when I heard something like a backfire and loss of power on takeoff.
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Elaborate?

A loss of power is one scenario where I'd either abort or return to the airport immediately.
 
Absolutely. I have an alt conversion in my 172G and love it. When my battery died, we jumped it from a car and my alternator ran everything just fine. When I reduced RPM in the pattern and dropped the flaps, everything electrical quit.

It was kinda fun waiting for and seeing the blinking green from the tower after I cleared the runway.
 
Dan Thomas said:
An alternator will also wake up and go to work with a jump from a car. A jump is the same as having a good battery powering everything.

The only time an alternator won't wake up is if the battery is totally flat and you have to hand-prop the airplane. It has too little residual magnetism in the rotor to generate the bit of voltage needed to overcome the forward resistance of the diodes in it. A generator doesn't have those diodes. Some airplanes use a set of flashlight batteries in a holder to kick-start the alternator in such cases.

The alternator, in spite of that one little shortcoming, is far better than the generator. It uses tiny brushes and smooth slip rings to power the rotating field instead of the generator's huge brushes and segmented commutator to take the generated power off the armature. That commutator can be a pain. The alternator doesn't need the reverse-current cutout relay; its diodes do that, and it also generates considerable amperage at idle, which the generator cannot. It weighs half as much as a generator and produces double the power.

There are some really good reasons automakers abandoned generators 50 years ago.
Click to expand...

Just to emphasize, for alternator to fail to recharge the battery after hand-propping, the battery really has to be completely and utterly flat, not just very low as it would be after several futile attempts to start on a cold morning. The way to find out is to watch the alternator gauge after the start, if it's charging (needle should be way up) then you are good, if not, you'd better shut down (perhaps after warming up the engine a bit) and get the battery charged.
 
I've only heard carbureted 182s backfire while cranking, and only if overprimed. I'd imagine you might get exhaust backfiring with an excessively rich mixture at high density altitude, but it would need at least one cylinder missing to get fuel vapor in the exhaust to begin with. It is NOT normal.

Airplane engines are simplified car engines. If you have a gear head on board, listen to him. The main difference is that you don't have spark advance and you can mess with mixture.
 
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Backfired leaving FTG? Don't be insulted, but your mixture wasn't all the way in was it??

As others have said, welcome.

We have all learned lesson's, and the smart ones are still paying attention and learning.. Just try to really learn and not make the same mistakes again. Electrical problems are generally just annoying for VFR flying, but can get a lot more serious IFR...

You shouldn't see a continued discharge, I have seen them on older planes with insufficient generator capacity. And on those you certainly had to shut the landing/taxi lights off to get a good charge enroute. Add it you your checklist.
 
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