What do y'all think of this crosswind?

ebykowsky

ebykowsky

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Supposed to go up this afternoon for a checkout in the Archer, with winds 14g22, 80 degrees off the runway. Now, that's above my personal limitations, but I really need to get some more experience with crosswinds. Is this something most instructors would/should fly in? Keep in mind the Archer has a 17kt demonstrated xwind capability.
 
Call up the instructor and ask, I think it sounds like a good experience. Never know if you'll be in a situation where you have to land and thats your only option.
 
If you run out of rudder then fly along the rwy till it straightens out when the gust lulls then land. If it doesn't straighten out go around! You'll get a lot of practice going around and that's good. Is there another more conducive rwy nearby?

If you aren't used to Xwinds then this is a lot to start with. It would be better if it were only 40-50 deg. Off.
 
VanDy said:
Call up the instructor and ask, I think it sounds like a good experience. Never know if you'll be in a situation where you have to land and thats your only option.
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:yeahthat:


Learning to handle the airplane in crosswinds is always a good thing! There never seems to be an airport with multiple runways handy when you really need one.

But if the conditions really exceed the abilities of you and/or the airplane...punt and divert. Good training lets you discover where those limits are.


Mike
 
My instructor answer would be no. Once you figure out the crosswind component (which will be very close to 22, its clearly is over the demonstrated capability. Keeping in mind that 1) that is a demonstrated figure 2) 22 is the gust, not sustained.

Could you do it? Probably
If you bend it up, could exceeding the crosswind "limitation" be an issue with anyway else (insurance / legal / etc)?

There are a lot of airplanes I would do it in no problem, but maybe in your case you should just wait to see what tomorrow looks like or grab an instructor and see what he thinks / possibly fly with him.
 
So how about the fact that this is my first time in a Piper (100% of my time is in high wing Cessnas)? I was planning on calling the instructor in a couple of hours to see if the plane is fixed yet and how he feels about the wind.
 
ebykowsky said:
So how about the fact that this is my first time in a Piper (100% of my time is in high wing Cessnas)? I was planning on calling the instructor in a couple of hours to see if the plane is fixed yet and how he feels about the wind.
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1st time in a new airplane plus the crosswind? I'd wait for a calmer day, or take the Cessna you do know and go out with the CFI.
 
I personally wouldn't have an issue going up in those conditions...it sounds like good practice, provided you have a nice wide and long runway to work with. Ideally you'd have a crosswind runway available too if you needed it. It may not be the best day to get checked out in a new plane, but if you can do ok in those winds, more typically conditions will be a breeze for you (pun intended).
 
ebykowsky said:
So how about the fact that this is my first time in a Piper (100% of my time is in high wing Cessnas)? I was planning on calling the instructor in a couple of hours to see if the plane is fixed yet and how he feels about the wind.
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As a 33-hour student pilot who flys an Archer II, I'm puckering up a little imagining myself in your shoes. If I had my CFI with me...no issues and it would be great practice. To tackle winds like that solo that might exceed both mine, and my plane's, crosswind abilities AND for me to not know the plane very well... I would have to pass. Even though my ego/confidence MIGHT be telling me I was okay, my gray matter between my ears would be saying something like "Really?!?...You're kidding, right?...Are you nucking futs?!?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about practicing in uncomfortable situations. However, when they exceed my personal limits I prefer to have my CFI in the right seat "just in case." Just my .02
 
Hobobiker said:
As a 33-hour student pilot who flys an Archer II, I'm puckering up a little imagining myself in your shoes. If I had my CFI with me...no issues and it would be great practice. To tackle winds like that solo that might exceed both mine, and my plane's, crosswind abilities AND for me to not know the plane very well... I would have to pass. Even though my ego/confidence MIGHT be telling me I was okay, my gray matter between my ears would be saying something like "Really?!?...You're kidding, right?...Are you nucking futs?!?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about practicing in uncomfortable situations. However, when they exceed my personal limits I prefer to have my CFI in the right seat "just in case." Just my .02
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CFI is with me. I'm not stupid enough to do this alone yet.
 
With a good instructor and a wide runway (at least 50 feet) it could be a great learning experience.
 
Just remember guys...having a CFI with you isn't the end-all answer to everything and doesn't give you the ability to fly in any condition. Many instructors are doing it because they are low time / building time to get another job. These guys start instructing at ~300 hours, which means they are still learning themselves.

Know your instructor's background and use common sense with any flight. Here is an accident that happened just over a year ago close to me....student with an instructor practicing crosswinds, airplane ends up flipped over next to the runway. NOTE: The demonstrated crosswind was cited in the report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20120628X74946&key=1


I realize the above statement might not be concerning this threads discussion as much considering the winds, but it is something to consider while on this subject.
 
All the arm waving stuff has been discussed - that said, the airframe should handle it just fine - it may (will) require a deft touch on the controls, rudder and aileron, so be ready to be active.

Review crosswind procedures and gust factor with the CFI and then go fly. If the airframe couldn't handle it then they wouldn't fly much out on the prairie...
 
I think it's great practice. My instructors have always been pretty gung ho about crosswinds, and I did my PPL out of an airport that had its crosswind runway out of service for the majority of the period. If the CFI is up to it, go for it.
 
lr60plt said:
Just remember guys...having a CFI with you isn't the end-all answer to everything
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I agree, and I suppose I'm very conservative.

As we know many GA accidents are chains of events that lead to the accident. For the OP, I see:

  1. Beyond his personal limits
  2. Beyond demonstrated limits for the aircraft
  3. 1st flight in this aircraft
To me this adds up to the beginning of a chain that could lead to trouble. Yes, he could rely on the CFI to save his bacon, but maybe not.

There are better days to be introduced to a new aircraft.
 
Been there done that. Wouldn't go out to do it on purpose unless the landing was totally optional (i.e. "if this doesn't work we'll just go elsewhere"). Unfortunately my extreme crosswind landings and the skills to handle them were situations where going elsewhere was a sufficiently big pain in the six that I just braved the landing.

If one needs an instructor to try every new thing one doesn't deserve a wallet-sized portrait of the Wright brothers.
 
steingar said:
Been there done that. Wouldn't go out to do it on purpose unless the landing was totally optional (i.e. "if this doesn't work we'll just go elsewhere"). Unfortunately my extreme crosswind landings and the skills to handle them were situations where going elsewhere was a sufficiently big pain in the six that I just braved the landing.

If one needs an instructor to try every new thing one doesn't deserve a wallet-sized portrait of the Wright brothers.
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Well, with 70 hours, I don't think it's in anyone's best interest if I go out and try a few very new things at once without an instructor. I mean, I flew a 152 on a nice day for the first time without an instructor checking me out, and I've flown in new bad weather without an instructor (my primary instructor wouldn't go up in more than 15kt TOTAL wind) but this is a bit different.
 
For most of the checkout (the air work) the crosswind is going to have no effect. I'm not familiar with your area but around here there are plenty of local airports that either by geography wouldn't be experiencing the gusty crosswinds or have multiple runways so you could go to one of those to practice normal landings then come back home to practice a few crosswind landings.

Bottom line is, in the real world when you get out there and start going places you're not going to have that much control over the wind conditions at your destination so eventually, one way or another, you're going to be faced with a situation like this. May as well get some experience with it. That might mean a little extra time with the checkout but it should be worth it.
 
ebykowsky said:
Well, with 70 hours, I don't think it's in anyone's best interest if I go out and try a few very new things at once without an instructor. I mean, I flew a 152 on a nice day for the first time without an instructor checking me out, and I've flown in new bad weather without an instructor (my primary instructor wouldn't go up in more than 15kt TOTAL wind) but this is a bit different.
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Then hang it up. Sorry to be so harsh, but if you aren't encountering new situations all the time then you aren't flying. Encountering novel situations is part of the game.
 
steingar said:
Then hang it up. Sorry to be so harsh, but if you aren't encountering new situations all the time then you aren't flying. Encountering novel situations is part of the game.
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I think the point is not to combine them.

And he's right.

You might try a new airplane OR push your crosswind limits, but not both at the same time. You still learn, but take fewer risks in doing so.
 
If the CFI is ok with it then you can get some practice. Flying down the rwy with the CFI on the rudders and you on the ailerons then vice versa the maybe landing... If you have a bail out rwy. Available go for it.

My students all get Xwinds practice up to 24-25 kts in a 152. It's not fun and it's a bit of a rodeo but they need to learn it.
 
Jeanie said:
If the CFI is ok with it then you can get some practice. Flying down the rwy with the CFI on the rudders and you on the ailerons then vice versa the maybe landing... If you have a bail out rwy. Available go for it.

My students all get Xwinds practice up to 24-25 kts in a 152. It's not fun and it's a bit of a rodeo but they need to learn it.
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You can tell right there that Jeanie is in west Texas!

I used to get annoyed that my instructor wouldn't let us practice at first in winds of only 10 knots (he was enforcing the need to say NO-GO now and then). By the end of training, we were doing the landings you describe above in the 152's. There were a LOT of low flights over the runway that he would've set down that I elected go-around ... and he was happy to see it.

My max in the Tiger successfully has been 25G33 direct x-wind. I once had a night landing that ASOS reported 20G29 on short final and I hit a HUGE shear ... immediate go-around, and then heard "Updated weather, winds now 38G45" ... I landed Las Cruces and waited it out.
 
I've taken student to the pattern in a Citabria when there 30kt direct crosswinds. I didn't expect them to be able to land...and they weren't, but they were able to get a good first-hand glimpse of winds in which they were unable to land were like. That's really an important lesson: How does one know the winds are too strong? If you have an instructor who is skilled in the airplane, go get some crosswind practice!
 
There are some nice places to eat in las cruces :) Not a bad place to wait.

One of my first CFIs told me: if you get back and it's gusting to 45-50 just wait around near the airport for about 20-30 mins and it should settle or go over to Marfa if it's better there. His comment also included you will always have at least an hour of fuel, right? Yes sir.....

Never happened but we did hear gusting to 35-40 or something once going to midland but by the time we got there it was back to 20.
 
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j1b3h0 said:
I've taken student to the pattern in a Citabria when there 30kt direct crosswinds. I didn't expect them to be able to land...and they weren't, but they were able to get a good first-hand glimpse of winds in which they were unable to land were like. That's really an important lesson: How does one know the winds are too strong? If you have an instructor who is skilled in the airplane, go get some crosswind practice!
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That would be too much for me in a tailwheel. I'm much more squeamish about wind in my decathlon.
 
wow i dont go out when its like 11-15 u guys talking big numbers. Im sure once i practice more cross wind i will like it and want to do it more. But no time and not much experience. But I though its a big no no no if its passed the planes demonstrated cross wind .
 
Well, I go out in up to 20 total wind.

I don't do crosswind limits as headwinds turn into crosswinds rather quickly -- even a 30 deg change in wind direction changes 0 crosswind into half the headwind as crosswind. And that kind of variability is the norm. I assume whatever wind I see is going to have a big hunk of it as crosswind.

Where is max demonstrated crosswind in your POH? If it's not in the "limitations" chapter, it's, well, not a limitation.
 
Jeanie said:
That would be too much for me in a tailwheel. I'm much more squeamish about wind in my decathlon.
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Jeanie, your Decathlon is one of the most capable wind airplanes ever constructed...if the crosswind is so strong you can't land on the centerline, heck, a good pilot can probably land in the width of any 150ft wide runway. Only problem is, one can land it in wind that it can't be taxied. Most of the aerobatic airplanes have such authoritative flight controls. If the wind is blowing dogs off chains, I'll take a Citabria/Decathlon over any Cessna/Piper. Practice, practice...you'll see.
 
Ok, I'll practice... Really, it's a little embarrassing that I'm ok at 30 kts and in the 152 but I get uncomfortable at 20 in Rosy. Just a matter of working through it.
I am the go around queen :yesnod: With fast feet.....:wink2:

Now, if I get that christen eagle I'll really be in need of work. Their lower wings are only 13" above the ground so, that limits the wind you can fly in right there without dragging the underside of the wing!

Sorry for the thread creep, guys.
 
Ive landed my Citabria in some pretty nasty stuff...felt that I could wheel land that in just about anything. Way more confident in that than I would be in a nose dragger of similar size.

I fly charter as well, so a lot of the times you don't really have a choice in what kind of crosswind you land in...if there is a crosswind the Lear 60 cant land in (very capable)...you probably shouldn't be in the air.
 
marcoseddi said:
wow i dont go out when its like 11-15 u guys talking big numbers. Im sure once i practice more cross wind i will like it and want to do it more. But no time and not much experience. But I though its a big no no no if its passed the planes demonstrated cross wind .
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I bet that limit is very reasonable limit for your part of the world. The aircraft we fly are generally capable of much more and learning to use that capability and staying proficient is as much a matter of need as it is training.

Of course there are aircraft that can't handle much crosswind. The Remos comes to mind as it has a 10 kt limit IIRC.
 
Due to rental situation I fly both Cherokees/Arrow and 172s, and for some reason I'm more comfortable with crosswinds in the latter. I can take probably 20 knots, maybe a shade more in Cessna. In Arrow, I run out of rudder right at its demonstrated amount of 17 knots. I know that some local pilots took our rentals further than that, so it's a matter of technique.

IMHO, it's easier to deal with gusts in Cessna too. Note that I spent all primary training in Cherokee and checked out in Skyhawk after checkride.

I suspect that I make airplane slip more than required inadvertedly, but my instructors say that I do not seem to do anything obviously wrong, just need practice.

Another thing, I saw deperate people slam a 172 down as if it were an Eircoupe (I was at the FBO waiting for the wind to die). Crosswind was too stiff and it was either that or run out of gas, I suppose. The gear on 172 can take a lot of this, apparently. I never dired to excercise it though.
 
I fly in high cross winds as a matter of course living in KS. I'm not sure I would do it as a student or anytime relying on someone else for their expertise.

We have had a few accidents locally where the situation changed quickly and the cfi was not able to recover.

Wait for better winds or rent out of airfield with better wind deflection.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Wait for better winds or rent out of airfield with better wind deflection.
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Don't fly out of BJC then 'cause it has lousy wind deflection. On many days the windsocks are all pointing at each other. Whaddaya do then?:dunno:
 
Jeanie said:
Ok, I'll practice... Really, it's a little embarrassing that I'm ok at 30 kts and in the 152 but I get uncomfortable at 20 in Rosy. Just a matter of working through it.
I am the go around queen :yesnod: With fast feet.....:wink2:

Now, if I get that christen eagle I'll really be in need of work. Their lower wings are only 13" above the ground so, that limits the wind you can fly in right there without dragging the underside of the wing!

Sorry for the thread creep, guys.
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Never had the pleasure of flying the Eagle, but a Pitts is even better than the Decathlon, in a crosswind. Very high wing loading (glide ratio is 5 to 1) and short span and 4 ailerons makes crosswinds no problema. Stearman, not so much.
 
Oh well, no flying today because of Mx issues. Rescheduled for Friday instead... that's the 6th time I've scheduled a checkout in the arrow to have it cancelled or postponed.
 
ebykowsky said:
Supposed to go up this afternoon for a checkout in the Archer, with winds 14g22, 80 degrees off the runway. Now, that's above my personal limitations, but I really need to get some more experience with crosswinds. Is this something most instructors would/should fly in? Keep in mind the Archer has a 17kt demonstrated xwind capability.
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I would be comfortable teaching in that in an Archer. I would not me comfortable flying by myself in that in the Flybaby.
 
To the OP, I would say don't go unless you're confident or you have multiple runways where you can get into the wind and you just want to practice trying to set down on an 50 degree offset or more.

It's a tough call. There's so many X variables. It's a PIC decision.

I have done things in mine I can't talk about.
 
ebykowsky said:
Like breaking the sound barrier? :)
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I think my insurance man maybe knows my persona around here, so I don't want to upset him.... :yikes:

Let's just say I land at KHRX pretty often, and it has one strip one way, and the wind don't always blow that way, so I improvise. Tundra's allow a lot of improvisation. Or, if it's bad enough, I land out at the ranch, into the wind, just about anywhere near the house. It's flat.

You just have to keep the steers away from the plane. They'll lick the **** out of it all over. I don't know why they do that... :rolleyes2:


Summer 2011. We had a bad drought going on...
 
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