Good thing the FAA only looks at individual planes after a crash. If they had put that inspection panel back in place like they did the past 5 years prior to 'discovering' the crack this time around, nobody would have ever known......
Wentworth's 310Q on ebay
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
Good thing the FAA only looks at individual planes after a crash. If they had put that inspection panel back in place like they did the past 5 years prior to 'discovering' the crack this time around, nobody would have ever known......
RotorAndWing
Final Approach
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2008
- Messages
- 8,496
- Location
- Other side of the world
- Display Name
Display name:
Rotor&Wing
Chances are with this airplane is it will require a DER to design the fix, and that's not going to be cheap. And as others had mentioned, once parts start coming off no telling what else will be discovered.
It's a fancy engine stand, destined for the scrap yard.
It's a fancy engine stand, destined for the scrap yard.
Of note is also that the plane has already been stripped of its avionics.
May be a worthwhile buy for someone who has geared up an uninsured Q and is looking for two serviceable engines and props. A pickup with trailer, an engine lift and a commercial grade saw-zall is all it takes.
May be a worthwhile buy for someone who has geared up an uninsured Q and is looking for two serviceable engines and props. A pickup with trailer, an engine lift and a commercial grade saw-zall is all it takes.
Last edited:
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
You make the assumption that there is more than the crack to repair. Several people have inspected it and found nothing.
I'll bet there is one born every minute.
Last edited:
RotorAndWing
Final Approach
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2008
- Messages
- 8,496
- Location
- Other side of the world
- Display Name
Display name:
Rotor&Wing
Yes, it's an assumption. After seeing these kinda things over the years I've learned where there's smoke, there's usually fire. As I said earlier someone ain't telling the truth about this airplane.
As far as my A&P/IA certs go, I wouldn't sign this thing off, if the owner wanted it fixed I would disassemble and have a DER draw up the repair.
CYA, bigtime.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
Why would you require a DER to design a repair? all the parts involved are replaceable.
Plus when you dissemble and find nothing, what then ?
RotorAndWing
Final Approach
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2008
- Messages
- 8,496
- Location
- Other side of the world
- Display Name
Display name:
Rotor&Wing
I'm just going by what I've read in the ad description. Having owned and operated these planes and worked on them there is something very fishy going on here if the description is accurate.
You could replace parts, but I think (assumption again) it goes much deeper than this. If it is more involved you're getting into DER territory.
Just one man's opinion.
Morne
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 699
- Display Name
Display name:
Morne
I am a metallurgist. I won't diagnose a crack as a fatigue crack without seeing it up close and personal. I keep a magnifying loop in my jacket pocket for just such an occasion.
The insurance could have probably saved about 30k by sending you and your loupe down to Kentucky.
Morne
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 699
- Display Name
Display name:
Morne
Probably. And in fact, I have done Metallurgy work for many years for a Fortune 500 Aerospace OEM. Been involved in quite a few failure investigations, too.
I'm a freelance consultant, now. So if any insurance boys would like my number they can send me a private message hereon.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
There was a set refueling procedure for the MU-2. Start at one tip tank to 1/2 full. Carefully where you put the ladder because the tank will drop about a foot. If it lands on the ladder, go get a second ladder.
After one tip tank is 1/2 full, move to the other tip tank. Fill it then start working your way across the wing back to where you started and finsh by filling the tip tank you started with. Make sure you move the trapped ladder before you fill the tank.
More than one MU-2 has had a tip tank put on the ground and the opposite main wheel in the air.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 30,014
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
That's not surprising. However, the MU-2 also holds significantly more fuel than the 310, and that fuel is heavier. While in the Aztec or 310 I'll notice a fuel imbalance if I have one for some reason, it doesn't have the same implications as an imbalance on a turbine.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
I'm just going by what I've read in the ad description. Having owned and operated these planes and worked on them there is something very fishy going on here if the description is accurate.
You could replace parts, but I think (assumption again) it goes much deeper than this. If it is more involved you're getting into DER territory.
Just one man's opinion.
I'm wondering if this owner didn't want to dump this high fuel user and the A&P-IA gave him a reason to dump it on the insurance company. They are after all the only ones buying a twin these days.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
N747JB
Final Approach
The ad specifically stated that the Q model isn't a gas hog like the R!!
Must have been another reason. I would take anything that Wentworth had to say with a grain of salt, every ad they have has some benign excuse as to why this plane isn't as bad as it looks, or why it's worth a lot more than they are asking for it.
Must have been another reason. I would take anything that Wentworth had to say with a grain of salt, every ad they have has some benign excuse as to why this plane isn't as bad as it looks, or why it's worth a lot more than they are asking for it.
N747JB
Final Approach
I saw a 421B going in for a prebuy last week! 
It wasn't Charlene, but it did sell for under $100K, decent avionics, one 700 hour engine and one at 1400.
It wasn't Charlene, but it did sell for under $100K, decent avionics, one 700 hour engine and one at 1400. True, and they say it's the result of too many twin owners buying the farm.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 30,014
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
I saw a 421B going in for a prebuy last week!
With one engine at 1400, it's going to need another $50,000+ before long put in it.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
The ad specifically stated that the Q model isn't a gas hog like the R!!
Just because it isn't as bad as the "R" doesn't mean its good.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 30,014
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
The Q and R models, with their humpback cabins, I wouldn't expect to be as aerodynamic as, say, the N-model that I fly (which I'd expect to be less aerodynamic than ones with the through-the-wing exhaust).
I'm pretty happy with the economy I get. At 13,000 ft I've gotten 20 gph combined (including climb) for 168 KTAS. Not too shabby. Typically it's 25 gph combined for 175 KTAS. Yes, I could be flying an A36 Bonanza and burn about 10 gph less for only a few knots less, but I wouldn't be able to do what I do with the 310.
N747JB
Final Approach
Yup, I think it's closer to $60K installed, depending on which overhaul you get.
point is there are a few twins selling, just cheap!
schmookeeg
En-Route
This. So much this.
I run an a/c maintenance shop, and have sheet metal, engine, and airframe gurus at my disposal for projects like this, and I have never been tempted by one of their offerings. I often wonder who, and for what purpose, people buy those planes.
Richard
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2005
- Messages
- 9,076
- Location
- West Coast Resistance
- Display Name
Display name:
Ack...city life
Mike, in all fairness perhaps it is because you are looking to make a profit, or at least with a mind towards the business end holding out to the public. Hiring out labor puts the kibash on these things.
There are guys who love projects for it's own sake. That guy who just loves to use his tools, has great affection for high end work, who finds great pride in knowing the inside and out of another toy; he is less inclined to total the costs. I've done it in muscle cars, fine woodworking, or wood sailboats.
The only real 'hobbyist' I found in aviation was a retired FAA inspector. An A&P/IA, he had a list of project planes. For the restoration he had the owner sell half share to him. Basically he had carte blanche to complete the restoration to his high level of quality, with only minor consideration to time to completion.
There are guys who love projects for it's own sake. That guy who just loves to use his tools, has great affection for high end work, who finds great pride in knowing the inside and out of another toy; he is less inclined to total the costs. I've done it in muscle cars, fine woodworking, or wood sailboats.
The only real 'hobbyist' I found in aviation was a retired FAA inspector. An A&P/IA, he had a list of project planes. For the restoration he had the owner sell half share to him. Basically he had carte blanche to complete the restoration to his high level of quality, with only minor consideration to time to completion.
Last edited:
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
And people wonder how/why the project guys end up so incredibly far under water and lose theirass when it's time to sell. I think you just explained it.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 30,014
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
It's that way with any project, be it planes or cars. The only way to make money at it is to be the person the project/hobbyist pays to do the work.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
They do it for the same reason people will buy a RV kit and build their aircraft.
They think it is cheaper by getting a few parts as they can afford them, rather than paying the bank interest.
Plus it really depends upon WHAT you buy when you try to turn one around. 310's won't do it for you but a beaver might.
schmookeeg
En-Route
Fair enough,
I will allow that there may be someone out there who enjoys repairing spar cracks on 310s for the fun of it.
My comment was more geared at the guys who look at the "easy fixer" ads on eBay and fancy the planes are just 5k away from being the ultimate flying machine. I can't do it with virtually free labor. Our pilots at the FBO show me these things all the time, and I make the same face at all of them.
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
A friend of mine was an A&P/IA. Any time he looked at a fixer-upper, he always calculated his rate at the full shop rate to decide if the basket case was worth fixing. He figured he could always find work at the shop rate, so why shouldn't he pay himself the same rate.
When he wasn't fixing planes, he was off snowmobiling, hunting, or whatever else made him happy.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
Fair enough,
I will allow that there may be someone out there who enjoys repairing spar cracks on 310s for the fun of it.
My comment was more geared at the guys who look at the "easy fixer" ads on eBay and fancy the planes are just 5k away from being the ultimate flying machine. I can't do it with virtually free labor. Our pilots at the FBO show me these things all the time, and I make the same face at all of them.
Where does it say this aircraft has a spar crack?
I think it was an insurance scam, to dump a old twin on the only people buying twins at insured value.
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2005
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Olympia, Washington
- Display Name
Display name:
Ghery Pettit
Current bid is $22,600. No thanks.
N747JB
Final Approach
N747JB
Final Approach
Or buy it finished when they move on to the next great idea!!
N747JB
Final Approach
Pretty much double the cost and triple the time to have it completed.
I usually start by figuring the most something could possibly cost add 20% and then double it
usually not too far off. Time is factored by estimating the cost divided by the number of labor hours after doubling the original cost and multiplying that by 3..............or 4 it doesn't really matter by the time my projects are finished I have usually run out of money or lost interest.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 30,014
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
As an A&P/IA with the capabilities and connections, it would make more sense for you were you looking for a twin. But as a buyer who's not in your position, I wouldn't take the risk.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
If anyone was looking for a twin, this would deserve a look, to see what the real story is.
take your own A&P-IA with you when you go.
I think with the recent revision of the AD on the Bonanza spar carrythrough, the FAA has made clear that they dont accept cracks in loadbearing structures anymore.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
Where does the ad say the spar is cracked?
Last edited:
Nowhere.
Do you think the doubler is for cosmetic purposes only ?
On the Bo it is also not the spar itself but rather the piece of sheet metal it is bolted to that cracks.