welp, Dad broke his hip

Thanks Kevin and Ghery. Dr. B, we're holding it together. Dad sounds restless tonight. I hope they do this tomorrow. If he was 2.9 INR 6 hours ago, I hope another 12-14 hours will bring it down below 2.5. I think that was their magic number. He had two knee surgeries while on coumadin (replaced each one, about a year apart). It went OK.

I just called to tell him good night.
 
I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV but I would be asking why they are in such a hurry.

But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? :)

Sorry to hear about your dad, Elizabeth, I hope that when the surgery happens it goes well and he bounces back quickly.
 
Thanks Ted. He's a tough dude, I think the challenge with him will be more "reining him in" and not overdoing it rather than the other way around.

I woke up and just remembered that this week I have my own medical bull**** to deal with. Too much to go into (Dr B, I may shoot you a PM) but my eye doc thinks I'm going to be seeing a retinal specialist and have surgery either this week or early next week.
 
Thanks Ted. He's a tough dude, I think the challenge with him will be more "reining him in" and not overdoing it rather than the other way around.

That sounds like my dad. He's 81 and the day that he has to stop working I think will be the day they pronounce him dead. Last summer we went hiking and he was going the same pace as me. I hope I got those genes.

I woke up and just remembered that this week I have my own medical bull**** to deal with. Too much to go into (Dr B, I may shoot you a PM) but my eye doc thinks I'm going to be seeing a retinal specialist and have surgery either this week or early next week.

Ugh, not fun... when it rains it pours. My mom just had eye surgery a few weeks ago, unfortunately it doesn't seem to have taken very well.
 
That sounds like my dad. He's 81 and the day that he has to stop working I think will be the day they pronounce him dead. Last summer we went hiking and he was going the same pace as me. I hope I got those genes.



Ugh, not fun... when it rains it pours. My mom just had eye surgery a few weeks ago, unfortunately it doesn't seem to have taken very well.

wow! he kept up with you, now that is something.

What eye surgery did your Mom have? I hope she is going to be OK. Both eyes?


I have a rant and I was wondering if the good doctors could tell me what to do.

I talked to my Mom and Dad this AM. We have the first and I sure hope the last ****up.

Sunday the surgeon said they wanted to wait one more day. Apparently the main doctor (not the surgeon, the guy running the show, but the hospital doctor, not sure how duties are divided) ****ed up in that he didn't start the vitamin K injections yesterday.

Last night Dad was 2.9. I thought he told me that 2.5 was the number they wanted to see but this morning I found out it was actually 1.3 they wanted to see (which comports with what Dr Jim said). This morning Dad is 2.3 and the surgeon found out and postponed ONE MORE DAY. The surgeon was ****ed. I think he THEN told the doctor to give him the Vitamin K. Dad's getting several doses today.

I thought there was the frozen plasma option? Why is no one bringing this up?

Saturday night this happened. Tonight will be 48 hours, and tomorrow afternoon will be going on 3 full days. Dad's pretty ****ed off right now. Pretty damn ****ed off. I am too. He hasn't moved in almost two days. At all.

What would you recommend I do? I tried talking to the nurse but she said "get the PIN number from your Dad". Dad has no idea what she is talking about. I get that they can't talk to me without his permission but they didn't even give him the info needed to have others handle this.
 
wow! he kept up with you, now that is something.

Yeah, I was surprised. The old man does well for 81. My mom (who would kill me if I mentioned her age, but it's not too far behind your dad) is complaining if she has to walk on anything but a sidewalk. Dad and I were climbing up some hills in San Francisco by the ocean without issue.

What eye surgery did your Mom have? I hope she is going to be OK. Both eyes?

She had a cornea replacement, and it's the partial cornea replacement (lower cornea only). They do one eye at a time, I can't remember which one she started out with. It's an elective surgery because she can't see very well, and no glasses she's been given have helped. She had LASIK done about 5-10 years ago (don't remember whether it was high school or college for me) by a doctor who I didn't like. Unfortunately I may have been right. While the LASIK worked great for the first few years, her eyes have been steadily declining since. Not macular degeneration or anything, and this makes the third thing the doctors have tried that hasn't helped. Her current doctor is one of the best eye doctors in New York, and he's been a little baffled. Fortunately she can still function, it's just difficult for her to read anything small or anything without a lot of light. Driving isn't an issue for her since she stopped driving anyway. In Manhattan she really doesn't need to anyway. Having a son with an Aztec doesn't hurt either, but when I fly her in it she complains that it's not a 421. "Well, mom, you know..." :)

This stuff ain't fun.

Regarding your rant, I have no idea what you should do, but am sorry to hear about it. It's amazing how one thing can really snowball and become a potentially big issue.
 
wow! he kept up with you, now that is something.

What eye surgery did your Mom have? I hope she is going to be OK. Both eyes?


I have a rant and I was wondering if the good doctors could tell me what to do.

I talked to my Mom and Dad this AM. We have the first and I sure hope the last ****up.

Sunday the surgeon said they wanted to wait one more day. Apparently the main doctor (not the surgeon, the guy running the show, but the hospital doctor, not sure how duties are divided) ****ed up in that he didn't start the vitamin K injections yesterday.

Last night Dad was 2.9. I thought he told me that 2.5 was the number they wanted to see but this morning I found out it was actually 1.3 they wanted to see (which comports with what Dr Jim said). This morning Dad is 2.3 and the surgeon found out and postponed ONE MORE DAY. The surgeon was ****ed. I think he THEN told the doctor to give him the Vitamin K. Dad's getting several doses today.

I thought there was the frozen plasma option? Why is no one bringing this up?

Saturday night this happened. Tonight will be 48 hours, and tomorrow afternoon will be going on 3 full days. Dad's pretty ****ed off right now. Pretty damn ****ed off. I am too. He hasn't moved in almost two days. At all.

What would you recommend I do? I tried talking to the nurse but she said "get the PIN number from your Dad". Dad has no idea what she is talking about. I get that they can't talk to me without his permission but they didn't even give him the info needed to have others handle this.
You won't regret being there once you go - but you might if you don't. This stuff is all easier in person.

Work can always wait.
 
You won't regret being there once you go - but you might if you don't. This stuff is all easier in person.

Work can always wait.

+1. And if my boss tells me otherwise, then I don't need that job.

My first year at my current job was when the Virginia Tech shooting happened. One of my friends was shot in the back of the head in her German class. One of my bosses didn't want me to go to the funeral. I said:

"I'm going. You can either fire me or accept it."

He chose the latter.

Of course this isn't a funeral, but the same concept applies.
 
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I thought there was the frozen plasma option? Why is no one bringing this up?

Because it's a blood product that comes with its own set of potential problems and is rarely needed outside of a immediate need for a procedure or in a patient with a damaged liver.

What would you recommend I do? I tried talking to the nurse but she said "get the PIN number from your Dad". Dad has no idea what she is talking about. I get that they can't talk to me without his permission but they didn't even give him the info needed to have others handle this.

They probably gave it to him, somewhere in a pile of other stuff. It is quite disingenuous to issue PIN numbers to folks who have so many other things on their mind instead of just asking them 'who do you give us permission to talk to about your medical condition ?'
What you are watching is goverment medicine at work. They are just trying to avoid a $10,000 fine for every time they talk to you.
 
I just got the tickets. Flying down to Florida tonight (landing at 11 PM) and then flying back tomorrow night at 6 PM. I hope I can at least hang out with him before the surgery in the AM - assuming the VitK brings it down enough to do it tomorrow morning.

I hope whatever bad weather system that is coming through holds off so I can get down there.

I'm sure he'll be fine, but I'm not pleased with the first ****up off the bat here. Doesn't give a huge confidence level.

Since I'm going to be there, what questions do I need to ask the doctor and nurses? I guess I need to run this through step by step.
 
I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV but I would be asking why they are in such a hurry.

The sooner you fix it, the sooner you get up and walking, and the less likely you are to die of pneumonia or other things that happen to sick folks when they spend too much time in bed.

Early mobilization is CLEARLY PROVEN to be associated with good outcomes.
 
The sooner you fix it, the sooner you get up and walking, and the less likely you are to die of pneumonia or other things that happen to sick folks when they spend too much time in bed.

Early mobilization is CLEARLY PROVEN to be associated with good outcomes.

Is mobilization on day three early enough though??
 
They probably gave it to him, somewhere in a pile of other stuff. It is quite disingenuous to issue PIN numbers to folks who have so many other things on their mind instead of just asking them 'who do you give us permission to talk to about your medical condition ?'
What you are watching is goverment medicine at work. They are just trying to avoid a $10,000 fine for every time they talk to you.

hint hint... in some hospital chains its the last 4 numbers of the patient's account number.. i.e. on the armband...

If you can reach dad on the phone, have him ask his nurse what his pin number is.. she can tell him again at any time. And once you have it, you are golden.

However, HIPAA does not specify PIN numbers, only a mandate to protect privacy. There needs to be an alternative method to identify people entitled to patient's private information. Every hospital I've worked at has one.
 
Is mobilization on day three early enough though??

I'm gonna defer that answer to the orthopods amongst us.

My background is ICU/Critical Care and ER.. we never saw simple ortho patients... but even say.. on open heart surgery, we have them sitting up day of surgery, and in a chair the next day. If the patient could safely be gotten out of bed, we made an effort to do so.
 
I'm gonna defer that answer to the orthopods amongst us.

My background is ICU/Critical Care and ER.. we never saw simple ortho patients... but even say.. on open heart surgery, we have them sitting up day of surgery, and in a chair the next day. If the patient could safely be gotten out of bed, we made an effort to do so.

Thanks Dave. Well, I hope tomorrow is the day. I think this is a major ****up though. How simple to start these meds on time. What was the doctor doing? It's not the surgeon who caused this by the way, it was the main doctor at the hospital.
 
Thanks Dave. Well, I hope tomorrow is the day. I think this is a major ****up though. How simple to start these meds on time. What was the doctor doing? It's not the surgeon who caused this by the way, it was the main doctor at the hospital.

Some hospitals need a quick kick in the rear end. Our most convenient one is in that category. Good service 5 years ago when my wife had her shoulder repaired. Not so good when I spent a few days there in 2008. Even worse last month when my wife had her knee replaced. Elective surgery will be done at the other hospital in town in the future. I'm tired of nurses who don't follow doctors' orders or who can't recognize that an IV has come out, or who take 1/2 hour to bring needed medications (pain). Seriously considering a sit down with the hospital administrator and ask if he has ever heard of ISO 9000. Their quality manual, if it exists, isn't being followed. Or, if it is, needs updating.

Oh, and as one dealing with ISO/IEC 17025 accredited labs, I regard ISO 9000 as a joke, but that's another matter... :D
 
I just got the tickets. Flying down to Florida tonight (landing at 11 PM) and then flying back tomorrow night at 6 PM. I hope I can at least hang out with him before the surgery in the AM - assuming the VitK brings it down enough to do it tomorrow morning.

I hope whatever bad weather system that is coming through holds off so I can get down there.

I'm sure he'll be fine, but I'm not pleased with the first ****up off the bat here. Doesn't give a huge confidence level.

Since I'm going to be there, what questions do I need to ask the doctor and nurses? I guess I need to run this through step by step.

Make written notes of who (by name and job) says what.
 
Sitting at iad. Big system just went through. Hope plane isn't late tight connection in atl.anyone have viz into radar?
 
There's not much for weather besides the storm that just went over IAD. So once things get back going again, you should be good. I don't know about ATL, says BKN013 so there's probably easy instrument approaches for everyone going in, which will delay ins and outs. Hopefully you'll be fine.
 
No guarantee that vitamin K is going to reverse his INR all that quickly either. Still probably could be a few days. Fresh frozen plasma will provide the needed factors, risk is pretty low (it is a blood product), potentially could cause pulmonary edema, and fluid overload, but not likely. Probably too small a hospital to have a full time hospitalist, and a lot of community internists may not be aware of all of the considerations of taking someone to the OR safely. The internist could be a general practitioner that does not frequently take care of peri-operative patients, for example. Other factors could come into play, such as availability of surgeon and OR time.

Talk about health care costs? By not staying on top of the anti coagulation issues, the hospital has now increased his length of stay by around five days (average cost at around $2500/day), when his surgery could have been done on the first day or so. Then, the surgeon and OR have to be available as well- results are clearly better when done during normal waking hours, and not the middle of the night.

Early immobilization means- sit on side of bed on either day of surgery or AM, stand and walk in room on POD1, walk in hall POD1, more ambulation on POD2, DC to home on POD3. Discharge planner should be arranging for walker, perhaps raised toilet seat. We use home nursing to come and check on medical status and incision three times a week, and home PT to come and work with patient at home, also three times a week. Medicare covers this. Therapy is the key after surgery, and it is a lot easier to have someone go to his home, rather than have him get dressed, get into a car, drive to therapy,etc.

Since he is immobilized and now off his coumadin, they should probably be bridging with either fractionated heparin (Lovenox or Fragmin) (a shot usually twice a day), to prevent him from getting blood clots. Heparin drip IV is not used as much in most academic centers any longer (harder to manage and monitor). Then, when INR is normalized at or around <1.5, hold last dose of heparin, and then do surgery. Probably should also be using sequential compression devices (see other thread on DVT).

Re-start coumadin on night of surgery. Would not give fragmin/lovenox after surgery, due to associated wound healing problems that are well documented, but of course not giving them also increases the risk of clotting. Except to bridge high risk patients, I have stopped using them completely, as the literature and my own experience supports around a 5-10 incidence of significant wound healing problems, hematoma, bleeding, etc.

Also need to watch his sugars- stop orals and give insulin in response to finger stick glucose for the first few days. Good control of his glucose levels is also important in helping to prevent other complications.

To me, this is the surgical equivalent of flying across Lake Michigan at night in IMC while picking up ice. By staying ahead of the plane and paying attention to detail, the outcome will be fine. However, you need to be aware of everything, and not focus on any one issue while ignoring the others- this can start the slippery slope toward trouble.

This is probably way too much medial information, but I think pilots are generally fact and data driven, so I hope it helps explain some of the events as I see them from a long distance.

Good luck.
 
Thanks Scott. What a huge bummer, it sounds really painful. My Dad already has various aches and pains from being a pretty active person. He's always getting into scrapes of some sort.

Anyone know what the time to recover is? He's going to get surgery when his coumadin levels come down (although he's currently fighting that...)

Hope he's ambulatory for Italy and Switzerland! Although I guess we could push him around in a wheelchair.

My mother broke her hip last month .. I think was about the second
week of the month. She had surgery and they pinned it and put a couple
screws in. She's 88. She's been walking with a walker and doing physical
therapy to get back ambulatory. They expect her to go home Saturday. She'll
need to use the walker and be careful.

RT
 
Thanks dr. Jim. I'm on berry so this will be short. The doc is a hospitalist. He told dad today that he wanted to see how his numbers came down on their own before introducing vitk. He is aware of frzen plasma. I've no idea if they will use it. Just got here will see dad in am. Dad seemed satisfied w docs explanation and told him he wld have preferred to have heard it earlier. Thanks again for the information I really appreciate it. I shld meet team tomorrow too I hope.

Roger hope yr mom gets well soon.
 
The doc is a hospitalist. He told dad today that he wanted to see how his numbers came down on their own before introducing vitk.

Has that strategy been cleared with the orthopedic surgeon ?
 
There are lots of ways of doing things. To me, there is no value in waiting to see how the INR dwindles down slowly- there are absolutely no advantages to the patient. The risk of FFP is low, and even vit K is too slow. Generally, it takes three-five days for the liver to start cranking up the clotting proteins, so perhaps in a day or two he will be ready. Why wait and see what happens when everyone knows he needs surgery?

At our institution we have a large volume practice, and work with a greater sense of urgency. Efficiency and productivity are critical, with good outcomes the most important issue. (the government and private insurance companies are never trying to pay more, only less and less for the same diagnosis and with more paperwork).

Of course, we are surgeons- kind of the fighter pilots of the medical community. The general personality type is confident, decisive, and impatient, and to those who don't share this attitude, probably viewed as arrogant and impulsive. Internists tend to be more cerebral, and either like to order lots of esoteric tests, or adopt a wait and see what happens mentality.

We used to admit all hip fracture patients to the medicine service, and typically saw that the surgery was delayed for a variety of reasons. When we switched to the patients being admitted to ortho, the data showed that the complications were less, the length of stay was shorter, and the outcomes were better. It did require greater attention and involvement on the part of the orthopaedists.

Again, this part of it is all personal opinion. The most important thing is that you are now able to be there for his surgery and to help both him and your mother through the next few days.

Good luck.
 
Thanks Dave. Well, I hope tomorrow is the day. I think this is a major ****up though. How simple to start these meds on time. What was the doctor doing? It's not the surgeon who caused this by the way, it was the main doctor at the hospital.

I dont think its a major mess up at all, just a difference in approach. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and everybody's body metabolizes different meds differently. Thats one of the reasons coumadin therapy is so labor intensive and requires attention to detail.

Some practitioners have a "less is more" approach, and this may be what you are seeing. Likewise, a community doc in a community hospital who has been in practice for 20 years is going to have a different approach than someone who has been practicing for 2 or 3 years in a major academic teaching hospital. You can ask 10 docs to review this case and in the end get 12 differing opinions. :devil:

Vit K and FFP (plasma) are well known elementary steps. The judgment call is when to use them. Everything you do to a patient can have consequences. Some minor, some major. Reversing anticoagulation too quickly (and overshooting) can have the risk of some really nasty things - strokes, clots in the lungs...

JimN covered some very excellent points, not only about the procedure, but also in how different disciplines select their docs (they pick you as much as you pick them, in school) and how they are trained.
 
. . . and the pathologists know everything about everything--one day too late.

There are lots of ways of doing things. To me, there is no value in waiting to see how the INR dwindles down slowly- there are absolutely no advantages to the patient. The risk of FFP is low, and even vit K is too slow. Generally, it takes three-five days for the liver to start cranking up the clotting proteins, so perhaps in a day or two he will be ready. Why wait and see what happens when everyone knows he needs surgery?

At our institution we have a large volume practice, and work with a greater sense of urgency. Efficiency and productivity are critical, with good outcomes the most important issue. (the government and private insurance companies are never trying to pay more, only less and less for the same diagnosis and with more paperwork).

Of course, we are surgeons- kind of the fighter pilots of the medical community. The general personality type is confident, decisive, and impatient, and to those who don't share this attitude, probably viewed as arrogant and impulsive. Internists tend to be more cerebral, and either like to order lots of esoteric tests, or adopt a wait and see what happens mentality.

We used to admit all hip fracture patients to the medicine service, and typically saw that the surgery was delayed for a variety of reasons. When we switched to the patients being admitted to ortho, the data showed that the complications were less, the length of stay was shorter, and the outcomes were better. It did require greater attention and involvement on the part of the orthopaedists.

Again, this part of it is all personal opinion. The most important thing is that you are now able to be there for his surgery and to help both him and your mother through the next few days.

Good luck.
 
Elizabeth,

Sorry to hear that. I hope your Dad is doing well.
 
Hi everyone. Surgery at 5 pm. We got to hosp at 730 am and found out. Spent morning playing euchre and now mom n I are getting something to eat. Everything seems normal. Both are in good spirits. Dad whomped us at cards btw. I leave on 6 pm flight but at least I saw him. More later thanks for well wishes.
 
Ps I told mom not to tell him I was coming down. Called him at 730 am from elevator and strolled into room while talking. Haha

His inr was 1.4 but then there is the sched. Surgeon is doing 7 surgeries today.
 
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Hi everyone

Thank you for all the support. I got home late last night. Dad was being wheeled in as I left for the airport. Surgery went well.

He called me at 845 AM this morning and immediately started talking about something he saw on one of the morning shows that he thought was interesting. By this I mean - no mention at all of the major surgery he just went through, he just wanted to chit chat. Yep, took me 5 minutes to get him around to the subject of "hey Dad, how did the surgery go". I'd say he's feeling pretty good. He sounded strong. He said he feels better pain wise than he thought he'd feel but then again he does have the button for pain meds now.

More later..
 
Very good news. Now, while you are taking care of Dad and Mom, take care of you, too.
Love, Pegggy
 
Glad to hear that he's doing well. Hope the recovery goes smoothly.
 
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