Well, I did it! And it only took me 41.7 hours

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vkhosid

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....to ground loop the plane. :hairraise:

Man, i'm totally disappointed in myself. It was a great day, no wind...ABSOLUTELY no wind, and yet....it still happened. I think what bothers me most about this is the fact that I'm trying to think about what I did to cause it, and I come up with a whole list of possibilities. Losing concentration? Maybe...Not looking where I was supposed to? Perhaps...Not having the yoke all the way back? Maybe...

I had a chat with my instructor afterwards (he happened to be in the pattern at the time as well), and he couldn't pinpoint it either.

Just soooo many variables.

If anyone is curious, it was KLVK at around 12-1230 on 1/9. Great audio of the ground vehicles discussing their plan of attack on cleaning up the dust/rock debris I so kindly blew on the runway...:no::no:
 
Ahhh... crap. I assume you're okay - how's the plane? No damage, I hope.

It's stories like yours that have me worried about tailwheel training. Especially when there's no easy correlation between cause/effect.
 
What airframe was this in? Anyone who flies a tailwheel has ground looped or will. Just a matter of time.

Some airframes must be flown different then others. I had one airplane and it would ground loop so very easy. The airplane I fly today not once has it ground looped in hundreds of landings.

It could be the airplane you was flying is one of those that just like to ground loop or ground loops very easy. I avoid those type of airframes. But I only fly EAB's.

Tony
 
I have quite a few hours on a Citabria that was utterly squirrelly, maybe because of gear not properly aligned. Didn't ground loop it, but came close and it was no fun to land. I haven't ground looped my Champ yet (where's some wood to knock on) but have had some interesting excursions with brake and tail wheel issues that demanded repair. I don't have any magic solutions for you.
 
Been thinking about tail wheel endorsement. How are the Cessna 180 or the Scout for stability?
 
Check your main gear wheel alignment. You should have a bit of toe out. There is no amount f toe in I would accept. Toe out is stabilizing to swing, toe in is destabilizing to swing.
 
Lots of pilots, including me, have NEVER ground looped their taildragger. Landing that thing of mine is a challenge, but frankly, I can't imagine I will ever ground loop it now. Still, I have to stay on my toes! It does take practice. You aren't tailwheel capable until you can go the whole way down the runway on one wheel, in a crosswind of course.

Heck, if you do loop the thing, get back on the horse and try it again!
 
Every person who flies a taildragger will ground loop at some point. Some are uglier than others, but it happens to all of us.
 
Then there are the intentional controlled groundloops spinning the plane into the hangar. ;)

Tail draggers should all have a Tailwheel lock.
 
Most taildraggers have a Scott Tailwheel. Put the tail of the plane up on a stand, grab the rudder and move the rudder around and kick the tailwheel around and watch what it does. My Scott follows the rudder for about its full travel, then breaks free and castors freely. When it comes back to center, it locks up again. Fascinating.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Most taildraggers have a Scott Tailwheel. Put the tail of the plane up on a stand, grab the rudder and move the rudder around and kick the tailwheel around and watch what it does. My Scott follows the rudder for about its full travel, then breaks free and castors freely. When it comes back to center, it locks up again. Fascinating.
Click to expand...

The difference is it will break free under an increasing pressure that could be held against if the Tailwheel didn't crack loose into caster mode. A pinned Tailwheel will resist a hell of a lot more swing force than a Scott will. Every big Tailwheel plane I have flown has one.
 
To answer the question, it was a c140. And to further clarify, it wasn't exactly a "loop". What happened was that during roll out, the plan made a 90 degree turn to the left. This took me off the runway and into the grass. No damage to the plane, myself, or anything else. The thing that I am really happy about is that I managed to slow it down before it entered the 25L (I was landing on 25R at KLVK).

Having a chance to think about it more, I'm starting to break it down a bit (or, at least convincing myself that this is what happened), and forming a picture of events.

All of my 41-ish hours have been in the cessna 140, so I have no basis for comparison. I think that during the landing, I somehow got into my head that the tailwheel was on the ground but the mains were still in the air. Stupidly, I relieved a bit of back-pressure on the yoke to try and put the mains down. That's when the plane started to veer to the left. I think that relieving some of the back-pressure took away the steering authority from the rudder and let the plane do what it wanted.

Am I right? I don't really know....but that series of events seems to correlate what happened to what I think I was doing just before the event....as I said, I could be wrong.

Oh well, have to wait till next friday to take her up again.
 
Once you tag the tail wheel, the mains will come right after unless you are full throttle with a butt load of horsepower, and in that case, you are about to crash in a torque roll. If you are going for a three point, always keep it planted.
 
Keeping the yoke back has been ingrained in my head since day-1. That's why (if in fact this is what happened) I'm ****ed off at myself for doing what I think I did...
 
Don't fret, just don't do it again. You didn't hurt anything besides some pride.

The only thing that leaves an open question is why did you have the sensation the mains were still up?:dunno:
 
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Ive never flown a locking tailwheel. Ive seen Cessna 180s that will lock and unlock (an STC) and Staggerwing has a lock/unlocked tailwheel standard. It is true that the Scott will allow the tailwheel to be out of alignment with the plane, so when you come down you feel it kick back there, and sometimes it sets up a vibration. There are also full castoring tailwheels. The locking ones all unlock for taxiing right?
 
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vkhosid said:
All of my 41-ish hours have been in the cessna 140, so I have no basis for comparison. I think that during the landing, I somehow got into my head that the tailwheel was on the ground but the mains were still in the air. Stupidly, I relieved a bit of back-pressure on the yoke to try and put the mains down. That's when the plane started to veer to the left. I think that relieving some of the back-pressure took away the steering authority from the rudder and let the plane do what it wanted.
Click to expand...

I think you had some left cross wind and you likely took the left aileron out when you relaxed the yoke.

The result was a weather-vane to the left that you couldn't control (as the tailwheel was off the ground).

I find in teaching tailwheel that most control roll-out control problems are really aileron problems.
 
There's no way to know what the guy did wrong over the internet. The ones I've seen and know about (they were close calls), one was lack of rudder, the other was crabbed touchdown with a quartering tailwind. Leaving the tail up when slowing is asking for trouble, though it can be done. One of my close calls happened when I was doing just that. Calm and I wheel landed and kept pushing the stick forward to keep the tail up and I didn't catch it and almost looped (saved it at the last minute). A bad swerve. I got lucky on that one and saved it.
 
vkhosid said:
....to ground loop the plane. :hairraise:

Man, i'm totally disappointed in myself. It was a great day, no wind...ABSOLUTELY no wind, and yet....it still happened. I think what bothers me most about this is the fact that I'm trying to think about what I did to cause it, and I come up with a whole list of possibilities. Losing concentration? Maybe...Not looking where I was supposed to? Perhaps...Not having the yoke all the way back? Maybe...

I had a chat with my instructor afterwards (he happened to be in the pattern at the time as well), and he couldn't pinpoint it either.

Just soooo many variables.

If anyone is curious, it was KLVK at around 12-1230 on 1/9. Great audio of the ground vehicles discussing their plan of attack on cleaning up the dust/rock debris I so kindly blew on the runway...:no::no:
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about that, much damage?

Biggest question, where were you looking???

At the infinity point way down the runway or was your point of focus closer?


AKBill said:
Been thinking about tail wheel endorsement. How are the Cessna 180 or the Scout for stability?
Click to expand...

I'd get it in the scout or something like a Citabria, easier to learn on smaller tailwheel planes, heavier tailwheels are not as forgiving for the instructor, a plane that the CFI can let you take closer to disaster and pull it back out, that is what you need.

coloradobluesky said:
Ive never flown a locking tailwheel. Ive seen Cessna 180s that will lock and unlock (an STC) and Staggerwing has a lock/unlocked tailwheel standard. It is true that the Scott will allow the tailwheel to be out of alignment with the plane, so when you come down you feel it kick back there, and sometimes it sets up a vibration. There are also full castoring tailwheels. The locking ones all unlock for taxiing right?
Click to expand...

185s had a locking tailwheel from the factory, honestly flying a non locking to locking ain't that much of a difference, especially in smaller planes.

Yep, the locking ones will unlock, ether based on the stick position or lever, most all tailwheels are also fully castoring.

If it's vibrating ether you're slamming that tailwheel down, or what's more likely, it's not angled right

image.jpg


Shepherd said:
Every person who flies a taildragger will ground loop at some point. Some are uglier than others, but it happens to all of us.
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BS

That's like everyone flying a RG will gear up at one point.

I passed the 1k hrs tailwheel point a while ago, in everything from a champ to AGCats to my 185.

Learning from the ground up in a tailwheel helps, a EXPERIENCED tailwheel CFI who has been WORKING as a full time tailwheel pilot helps too.
 
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If you land with a crosswind and use the rudder to counter the crosswind (and ailerons of course), then your Scot tailwheel will follow the rudder (unless it is free wheeling). If it follows the rudder it wont be in line with the plane and will pull your tail around a bit (and may set up a vibrating tailwheel) and you are going to have to correct for that. Been there, done that.
 
coloradobluesky said:
If you land with a crosswind and use the rudder to counter the crosswind (and ailerons of course), then your Scot tailwheel will follow the rudder (unless it is free wheeling). If it follows the rudder it wont be in line with the plane and will pull your tail around a bit (and may set up a vibrating tailwheel) and you are going to have to correct for that. Been there, done that.
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That's not been my experience with Scott 3200s and those maule single arm tailwheels
 
If you don't believe me, put the tail on a jack stand and grab the rudder and watch the tailwheel and see if it doesn't follow the rudder, UNTIL, it breaks free. Think about it, you have tailwheel steering when taxiing right? But the tailwheel can go clear around right? It must do BOTH follow the rudder AND break free at some point. And indeed it does. Then when it comes back to 12 oclock, it locks up to the rudder again.
 
coloradobluesky said:
If you don't believe me, put the tail on a jack stand and grab the rudder and watch the tailwheel and see if it doesn't follow the rudder, UNTIL, it breaks free. Think about it, you have tailwheel steering when taxiing right? But the tailwheel can go clear around right? It must do BOTH follow the rudder AND break free at some point. And indeed it does. Then when it comes back to 12 oclock, it locks up to the rudder again.
Click to expand...

I know it follows the rudder, but it's shimming and vibrating all over you're ether got it rigged wrong or you're slamming it on landing.
 
Something has to "set off" the shimmy. Anyway, shimmy happens to tailwheels and nosewheels, though not all the time. Less if they are in balance. The point is, the tailwheel can be crooked to the plane and to the direction of travel if it does this and when it sets down, well, its going to kick a bit.
 
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coloradobluesky said:
Something has to "set off" the shimmy. Anyway, shimmy happens to tailwheels and nosewheels, though not all the time. Less if they are in balance. The point it, the tailwheel can be crooked to the plane and to the direction of travel if it does this and when it sets down, well, its going to kick a bit.
Click to expand...

Shimmy happens when things are worn out and misaligned. Most of the time it starts with a worn tail spring. The reversed caster angle that provides stresses the bearing/friction lock plate. Usually the bolt will deform and stretch a bit and loosen everything up enough that the reversed caster angle allows it to shake. If it shimmies only when you pin the tail, you are at the beginning stages. There is a picture above that shows this mechanism.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Something has to "set off" the shimmy. Anyway, shimmy happens to tailwheels and nosewheels, though not all the time. Less if they are in balance. The point it, the tailwheel can be crooked to the plane and to the direction of travel if it does this and when it sets down, well, its going to kick a bit.
Click to expand...

Shimmy happens in both taildraggers and trikes when things are worn/not rigged right, or when the pilot isn't operating the plane right.

Properly rigged and maintained plane, flown properly, will NOT shimmy.

I've landed in crosswinds of 40kts with a Scott 3200 non-locking tailwheel, no shimmy.
 
Ok, quiz time. Which WAY will it kick you? Into the crosswind or away from the crosswind?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Ok, quiz time. Which WAY will it kick you? Into the crosswind or away from the crosswind?
Click to expand...

Which way will what kick you? The wind or the Tailwheel? Which way the Tailwheel steers the tail isn't the problem, it's when they break loose and caster they lose their lateral resistance and let the tail swing.
 
Which way will the tailwheel kick you?
Into the wind?
Away from the wind?
 
Well Ive never been "kicked" one way or another when my tail touched down, but I'll play.

So you're using you're ailerons to keep the plane in middle of the runway and the rudder to keep the plane pointed down the runway. With the plane naturally wanting to weathervane, you'd "kick" downwind, thus a non-locking tailwheel would be pointing downwind.
 
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