We are closer than ever, please contact your representative

Jay Honeck said:
I have rarely been so depressed by a thread.

Pilots, who imagine that the 3rd class medical has enhanced flight safety? Legislators, who see the FAA as a force for good in aviation? Aviators, arguing in favor of more restrictions on our freedoms?

The WWII guys I used to hang with at the airport must be spinning in their graves to know what kind of pansies have picked up their mantle.
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Hear, hear...
 
DFH65 said:
The point is neither should care they should mind their own business and stay out of mine. Why do I need their permission? They certainly don't ask mine when they do the things they want.
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Neat argument. Means nothing to anyone with power and even most that don't. We need to be more persuasive.
 
tquigs said:
To the extent medicals are for the benefit of the public interest, then this is the statistic that should drive decision making. To go a step further...how many of the GA non-pilot deaths (and injuries too I suppose) are medical related vs. how many of the non-driver deaths (and injuries) are medical related? I suspect the GA numbers if non-pilot deaths due to medical issues would be in the single digits in any year.
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Nice first post TQ!!! :cheers: Normally I say quit with the car stats already, it's a tired pointless old saw, but I think you may have hit on a new angle.

Forgetting aviation altogether, how many highway accidents are caused by medical incapacitation per population, or miles traveled? From that set, how many were fatal? I would argue that the private pilot population rate of incapacitation accidents is lower due to the fact that the population is over all, more affluent and likely to get regular health care.

Using highway stats as a "cross section of America" to frame this argument is likely a good one. As I said before, it is likely that the pilot population is in somewhat better health than the car driving population. I don't know the numbers, but I bet they are small and from this I think it is good reckoning that the pilot stats would be slightly better.
 
Dav8or said:
Nice first post TQ!!! :cheers: Normally I say quit with the car stats already, it's a tired pointless old saw, but I think you may have hit on a new angle.

Forgetting aviation altogether, how many highway accidents are caused by medical incapacitation per population, or miles traveled? From that set, how many were fatal? I would argue that the private pilot population rate of incapacitation accidents is lower due to the fact that the population is over all, more affluent and likely to get regular health care.

Using highway stats as a "cross section of America" to frame this argument is likely a good one. As I said before, it is likely that the pilot population is in somewhat better health than the car driving population. I don't know the numbers, but I bet they are small and from this I think it is good reckoning that the pilot stats would be slightly better.
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I still think we need to be cautious about the comparison with cars because most people remember the keys they took away from Mom, Dad, Grandma or Grandpa while those people still had valid driver's licenses.
 
Everskyward said:
I still think we need to be cautious about the comparison with cars because most people remember the keys they took away from Mom, Dad, Grandma or Grandpa while those people still had valid driver's licenses.
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You know what though, kids can take away the keys to the plane too.
 
Dav8or said:
Neat argument. Means nothing to anyone with power and even most that don't. We need to be more persuasive.
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The only "persuasion" that will work is de-funding. We haven't yet gotten our priorities straight as a People yet on that one.

It's also virtually impossible considering there's no limits on spending money they don't have.
 
FWIW I just got this from my rep.





May 21, 2015 Dear Friend,

Here’s a quick update on the work I’m supporting in Congress for our nation’s recreational pilots. Earlier this year, Rep. Sam Graves (R-MO) introduced the Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2, H.R. 1062—bipartisan legislation that will allow many pilots to fly recreationally without requiring them to obtain a 3rd class medical license. Thanks in large part to your advocacy, a closer examination of H.R. 1062 revealed how this legislation will expand important protections for our pilots. For instance, H.R. 1062 would increase pilot protections during enforcement proceedings with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). As a member of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, I will continue to work tirelessly as a voice for the aviation community. Thank you for your continued advocacy on these critical important issues. As always, please do not hesitate to contact me in the future. For additional information on my work in Congress, please sign up for my e-newsletter at https://esty.house.gov/contact/newsletter.


Sincerely,
Yvy7vqcJvQNLILloA3BEyiV5R4s2avUB5FATImY1v6mSceP1ANDsv65u_BONUzYvtL5lRoCBNXjGCUYaB148ZHLCRKY-TK9eUaPDk8Bvp2daaotdL1wpTPQr0-TV9weW=s0-d-e1-ft
 
Everskyward said:
I still think we need to be cautious about the comparison with cars because most people remember the keys they took away from Mom, Dad, Grandma or Grandpa while those people still had valid driver's licenses.
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Could they still pass a flight review?
 
Man I'm so glad we pay folks (for life) to go to Washington DC and hire a bunch of kids to write form letters.

Wait scratch that. Form emails.

Remember these are the same people who brought you this attitude not that many years before...

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And the same Administration that attacked the use of corporate aircraft by the President himself, only a few weeks after sending the Transportation Secretary to Wichita to give a speech about how much the administration cared for them and their jobs.

And the manufacturers laid off many of those workers a few weeks after that.

Unless someone has video of the person or persons opposing this legislation eating a small child alive, this fine boondoggle is fun, but going nowhere.
 
Keep pushing for medical reform

MAY 20, 2015 BY GENERAL AVIATION NEWS STAFF LEAVE A COMMENT

As of the start of this year’s SUN ’n FUN, more than 21,000 letters to Congress in support of the Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2 have been sent from EAA’s Rally Congress network by Experimental Aircraft Association members and other aviators.

That legislation includes the aeromedical reform language that is easily the No. 1 regulatory issue for pilots, according to EAA officials.

EAA and the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) continue to lead the push for this legislation that, in addition to medical reform, contains many important legal and enforcement safeguards for aviators.

“All of those 21,000 letters are a terrific start. Those help our advocacy teams as we urge more lawmakers to become co-sponsors and commit support for this bipartisan bill,” said Sean Elliott, EAA’s vice president of advocacy and safety. “There’s an important step that each of you can take if you care about aviation, however. That’s making that personal contact with your federal lawmakers, whether through a phone call, personal letter, or conversation with the legislator or their staff. Those individual constituent contacts carry more weight than thousands of email messages.”

EAA Government SiteYou can find contact information for your representative and senators through EAA’s Rally Congress website. If your local lawmakers have already signed on as co-sponsors of the bill, be sure to thank them. If they haven’t signed on yet, ask them to support their constituents who fly by backing H.R. 1062 (in the House) or S. 571 (in the Senate).

Your D.C. lawmakers will be in their home areas during the upcoming summer recesses. Many of them are at public venues, connecting with voters and constituents. Take advantage of those opportunities to make your voice heard.

“The Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2 is a measure you have been demanding as an aviation community,” Elliott said. “However, it will take the help of every EAA member to get it passed. Don’t let the opportunity to connect with your local lawmaker pass you by.”

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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Could they still pass a flight review?
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Isn't a flight review only every two years?

I once signed someone off for a flight review but I refused to sign him off for an instrument review, even after multiple attempts. He went and found someone else to do it. Sadly, this happens to some people as they get older.

Again, I am not against the legislation getting rid of the third class medical. I'm only pointing out how some in the general public might see this.
 
flytime said:
In my home state of Washington, the DMV is extending the expiration date of driver's licenses to 6 years. And after 6 years all you do to renew is fill out an online form and make a payment. Even before this change the vision test and an updated photo was only required every 10 years. Not sure what it will be now. Maybe every 12 years? And of course every state is different, so there will be no consistency.



As soon as the bill comes up for serious debate, these issues will be raised...as they should...and I'm afraid it will make it very difficult for many lawmakers to support eliminating the 3rd class medical.



We are pilots, and unlike drivers, we fly our aircraft over homes and private property and public spaces. And therefore I have no problem being held to a higher standard than the driver of an automobile. My preference would be to reform, not eliminate.
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The question is medical incapacitation, the warnings of which could be caught in a third class medical exam. There are many matters that now require SIs that are silly on its face. Why does early-detected prostate cancer require grounding?

You're a young guy, I presume. Wait until a matter that wouldn't prevent you from driving, operating machinery, or doing most anything else, would prevent you from legally flying a plane. You may think twice about this.

We complain about the aging of the pilot population, but I guarantee that there are many middle-aged people who may want to fly, but think they can't get or sustain a medical.

It's also something that plays into a buy vs rent decision. Who wants to spend $100,000 -$500,000 on a toy that could become unable to be flown after your doctor takes a simple blood test at your annual physical, because some bureaucrat in Oklahoma or DC decides that there is some infinitesimal risk that you might have some "event" in flight?
 
denverpilot said:
The only "persuasion" that will work is de-funding. We haven't yet gotten our priorities straight as a People yet on that one.

It's also virtually impossible considering there's no limits on spending money they don't have.
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Ummm... and how do we persuade the congress to de-fund the FAA? :confused: Why would they vote to do that?
 
nddons said:
It's also something that plays into a buy vs rent decision. Who wants to spend $100,000 -$500,000 on a toy that could become unable to be flown after your doctor takes a simple blood test at your annual physical, because some bureaucrat in Oklahoma or DC decides that there is some infinitesimal risk that you might have some "event" in flight?
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Exactly.
 
Some of us apparently believe that flying is so hard and dangerous to others that we need to be in top physical condition (as verified by bureaucrats), while others (including me) find flying to be much easier than (for example) driving in rush hour traffic.

This is exasperating. It's like we are talking about two different things.

Wait. Are we?

Should this be a VFR pilots only deal? Perhaps keep the 3rd class medical for the minority of recreational pilots who fly IFR? Would that make the butt-hurt less for those who think we are endangering lives by eliminating the 3rd class medical?
 
I seem to recall that the last two incapacitation cases both involved airline pilots with heart attacks in the cockpit. One passed in flight, not sure of the second. Don't these guys have a medical every 6 months? If a medical every 6 months doesn't catch this stuff how is one every two years going to do it.

And then again maybe I just dreamed the whole thing up.
 
Dav8or said:
Ummm... and how do we persuade the congress to de-fund the FAA? :confused: Why would they vote to do that?
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Have to take away their credit card, first. Which won't happen. You ignored the "virtually impossible" sentence.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Some of us apparently believe that flying is so hard and dangerous to others that we need to be in top physical condition (as verified by bureaucrats), while others (including me) find flying to be much easier than (for example) driving in rush hour traffic.

This is exasperating. It's like we are talking about two different things.

Wait. Are we?

Should this be a VFR pilots only deal? Perhaps keep the 3rd class medical for the minority of recreational pilots who fly IFR? Would that make the butt-hurt less for those who think we are endangering lives by eliminating the 3rd class medical?
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No. If there's no justification for stopping pilot incapacitation VFR, and no evidence the aircraft raining down on the unsuspecting poor soccer moms will happen, it doesn't matter if the airplane is flying in clouds when the Chicken Little incapacitation apocalypse begins.
 
denverpilot said:
No. If there's no justification for stopping pilot incapacitation VFR, and no evidence the aircraft raining down on the unsuspecting poor soccer moms will happen, it doesn't matter if the airplane is flying in clouds when the Chicken Little incapacitation apocalypse begins.
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Agreed.
 
denverpilot said:
No. If there's no justification for stopping pilot incapacitation VFR, and no evidence the aircraft raining down on the unsuspecting poor soccer moms will happen, it doesn't matter if the airplane is flying in clouds when the Chicken Little incapacitation apocalypse begins.
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Just to play Devil's advocate, if you believe that high stress might cause incapacitation in a vulnerable person, I have to say that some of my most puckering moments in the cockpit were during IFR in IMC. IMO, IMC is more stressful than VMC for obvious reasons.
 
nddons said:
The question is medical incapacitation, the warnings of which could be caught in a third class medical exam. There are many matters that now require SIs that are silly on its face. Why does early-detected prostate cancer require grounding?

You're a young guy, I presume. Wait until a matter that wouldn't prevent you from driving, operating machinery, or doing most anything else, would prevent you from legally flying a plane. You may think twice about this.

We complain about the aging of the pilot population, but I guarantee that there are many middle-aged people who may want to fly, but think they can't get or sustain a medical.

It's also something that plays into a buy vs rent decision. Who wants to spend $100,000 -$500,000 on a toy that could become unable to be flown after your doctor takes a simple blood test at your annual physical, because some bureaucrat in Oklahoma or DC decides that there is some infinitesimal risk that you might have some "event" in flight?
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Good post.

My SI is due to sleep apnea. A few years ago, even before I began my primary training, I was sick of being tired half the time during the day and hit my doctor up. After several tests, a sleep study was recommended and I came up with moderate OSA. I'm 5'8" and 185#, muscular build so the overweight thing doesn't apply. I simply have a restrictive airway.

The CPAP therapy did wonders for me. I don't care what the FAA says, I did and will continue to wear my mask no matter what, it's got nothing to do with flying.

But, of course, they don't trust me to do this, so I have to provide proof once a year. Which entails a lot of pain-in-my-ass stuff. And 2-3 times the cost of a normal exam with the AME. For what? To ensure I'm doing something I'm going to do anyways? Big bro at its worst.

I'm fairly young in my mid 30s, I workout like mad, pulse is real low, two EKGs in the last 3 years came back competely normal. I'm at ZERO risk for medical incapacitation but the FAA doesn't agree with me. So, get your wallet out if you want to keep flying. And pray that the AME doesn't find something to flunk you, because even though I have access to a fancy LSA to rent cheap, I can't even fly that if I fail the exam.

If I was 65 with high blood pressure and a history of heart issues, yep, I see the validity in requiring frequent exams.

If I could do it again, the AME wouldn't have heard a word about my OSA.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Good post.

My SI is due to sleep apnea. A few years ago, even before I began my primary training, I was sick of being tired half the time during the day and hit my doctor up. After several tests, a sleep study was recommended and I came up with moderate OSA. I'm 5'8" and 185#, muscular build so the overweight thing doesn't apply. I simply have a restrictive airway.

The CPAP therapy did wonders for me. I don't care what the FAA says, I did and will continue to wear my mask no matter what, it's got nothing to do with flying.

But, of course, they don't trust me to do this, so I have to provide proof once a year. Which entails a lot of pain-in-my-ass stuff. And 2-3 times the cost of a normal exam with the AME. For what? To ensure I'm doing something I'm going to do anyways? Big bro at its worst.

I'm fairly young in my mid 30s, I workout like mad, pulse is real low, two EKGs in the last 3 years came back competely normal. I'm at ZERO risk for medical incapacitation but the FAA doesn't agree with me. So, get your wallet out if you want to keep flying. And pray that the AME doesn't find something to flunk you, because even though I have access to a fancy LSA to rent cheap, I can't even fly that if I fail the exam.

If I was 65 with high blood pressure and a history of heart issues, yep, I see the validity in requiring frequent exams.

If I could do it again, the AME wouldn't have heard a word about my OSA.
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That is basically what it boils down to........

Pardon the phrase... Don't ask, Don't tell...:no::no:
 
I think I sound a little bitter. And really, I'm not. It's just sort of frustrating. I realize flying is expensive yes, but why make it any more so than it needs to be?
 
Oh, I have no doubt about that. I feel pretty badly for the guys who have to jump through many more hoops than I do.
 
pilot1956 said:
My interest here is evidence. I don't want to argue about nanny states and freedom, it goes nowhere. Show me the evidence that the FAA medical makes flying safer. Newsflash - there is none.

Modern fitness-for-duty methods involve assessment of performance, not a list of forbidden conditions and medications. Guess what, every state medical board in the US allows neurosurgeons, transplant surgeons, etc. - who have conditions or take medications that the FAA says are incompatible with flying a C-150 - to operate on you and me, every day, and without restriction. Do you ever ask your surgeon if he or she takes Prozac? Still let him/her operate?
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Hm, maybe every surgeon should have a 3rd class medical
 
I do think the stance the FAA has taken with OSA has interfeared with many an aurman from getting the treatment they need. I just can't understand why it has become such a high priority issue.
 
tmyers said:
I do think the stance the FAA has taken with OSA has interfeared with many an aurman from getting the treatment they need. I just can't understand why it has become such a high priority issue.
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Most likely some bureaucrat in charge owns stock in a medical equipment company or two. :mad:
 
Dav8or said:
Just to play Devil's advocate, if you believe that high stress might cause incapacitation in a vulnerable person, I have to say that some of my most puckering moments in the cockpit were during IFR in IMC. IMO, IMC is more stressful than VMC for obvious reasons.
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Haha good point. :)

gacoon said:
Hm, maybe every surgeon should have a 3rd class medical
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Nope. 2nd Class because it's a commercial operation. And if they're in charge of anything, 1st Class. :)
 
So my wife, Mary's, 3rd class medical is due this month -- she's out of luck.

Mine isn't due till December. Taking any odds on whether this bill will pass by then?
 
Jay Honeck said:
So my wife, Mary's, 3rd class medical is due this month -- she's out of luck.

Mine isn't due till December. Taking any odds on whether this bill will pass by then?
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December, but what year... I think the realistic timeline for this to pass is "will this pass before the ADS-B mandate?"
 
Bill Jennings said:
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What's creepy is that we've buried two AMEs since we moved to Texas 5 years ago, and the new one we found is in Victoria, a 40 minute flight away, and he sounds like he's 110 years old.

There are none left in the Coastal bend of Texas.

They may have to eliminate the medical requirement simply because all the AMEs are dead.
 
I think everyone should send AOPA a note stating: "I'll renew my membership when 3rd class medical reform is passed. Get off your ass and prove to me that you can actually get something accomplished."

I plan to do so later this summer when my renewal is imminent.
 
timwinters said:
I think everyone should send AOPA a note stating: "I'll renew my membership when 3rd class medical reform is passed. Get off your ass and prove to me that you can actually get something accomplished."

I plan to do so later this summer when my renewal is imminent.
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I like that idea. Unfortunately mine doesn't renew until next February. By then, the PBOR2 will be dead in committee and I'll probably just tell AOPA to pound sand. :incazzato:
 
I was chatting with Bruce on this a little bit ago asking if he has seen anything besides air moving on this and he said, just air, so I wouldn't be counting on it for December. I have a feeling it might be a bone come election time.
 
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