Not sure how an airplane unairworthy for solo would be airworthy for dual! Definitely a sketchy school. Sorry you were scammed.
Ways Flight Schools Cheat Their Students
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Steve Kanefsky
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I'm not sure about this particular situation with the fuel gauge, but there are certainly a lot of extra restrictions placed on a student pilot when soloing that wouldn't be applicable to the CFI or a certificated pilot. Weather minimums for example. The flight school/club or owner is also free to put whatever restrictions they want on the plane. One plane I wanted to use wasn't allowed to be flown at all by student pilots at the owner's request, for example, even though it was the exact same make and model as other planes that were available for me to train in at the same club. So maybe the MEL for a soloing student can be different than the MEL for the CFI, at the instructor's or flight club or owner's discretion.
Adding weather restrictions is normal. Your instructor probably gave you ceiling, wind, and visibility restrictions when he endorsed you to solo. Sometimes owners don’t like their planes doing 50 touch and go’s a day and restrict their plane to students. That’s not uncommon either. I know if I owned a plane, there would be no chance I would lease it back. A broken fuel gauge is a broken fuel gauge. It doesn’t matter if you’re a student or licensed pilot. It has to be fixed.
Not sure wher you are located but the average in Colorado for instruction ranges $40-60 hr.
For an airplane, pick up a 152 suitable for PPL learning for under $20K.
The school might add a few things for students, but they can't go with less than the FAR requires. Per 91.205,
=================================================
(b)Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:
=================================================(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.
(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with........
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.
(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with........
If the fuel gauge was INOP, it was illegal for the CFI (or anyone else for that matter) to fly the plane, student or no student.
And it's a little worrisome if you weren't taught that, too. Did you learn GOOSE-A-CAT or one of the other equipment acronyms?
Steve Kanefsky
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That's why I mentioned that I wasn't sure about the fuel gauge in particular. I guess I was just quick to overgeneralize and hypothesize that students might be required to have some equipment be operational that would otherwise be optional. I'm pretty sure if I were asked directly I would have included the fuel gauge as required equipment outside of this context, but in hindsight I think my ground school training was a little deficient in this area. My practice tests had more questions about when parachutes are required or when I can drop stuff out of the airplane than silly stuff like fuel gauges
My pre-solo exam had a question about whether the fuel gauges would work in the event of an electrical failure but nothing about which instruments were required. It's also strange that none of the preflight checklists I've seen have anything about verifying the operation of the fuel gauge, or the compass for that matter. Both of those are instruments that my CFIs have basically said never to pay attention to due to their inaccuracy In any case, I'll definitely remember this for the checkride now, should I ever get that far Anyway, I guess in this case the real sin of the club is letting the plane be flown for instruction when it shouldn't have. The fact that they wouldn't go so far as to let it be used for a student to solo is a saving grace if anything, rather than a sign that they're trying to cheat the student.
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
Yeah that seems much more realistic..
Nothing wrong with a C150, but if I'm buying a plane I'd like to be able to put people in it and go places too after getting my license. But people's mission needs are all different
Ken Ibold
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I only tried to make the point that the overhead cost of the facility cannot be ignored. Of course the details will vary. Full motion sims = more overhead, drafty room stuck to the side of an old hangar = less overhead.
Steve Kanefsky
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At the flight clubs I'm familiar with, they charge an hourly rate for the simulator exactly like they do for real aircraft (I think it's around $50-70 per hour). Students also pay a monthly membership fee which I would assume covers the overhead of the facility (maybe CFIs do too). The CFIs still charge around $90 per hour on average and they bill the student directly so that money never goes through the flight club. This is obviously Part 61 flight training and not Part 141, so the instructor is working as an independent contractor and wouldn't get any benefits like paid vacation, medical and dental insurance, etc. They'd also have to pay double the payroll taxes of a regular employee. So $90 an hour isn't really that much in the Bay Area with the high cost of living.
mtuomi
En-Route
You need to fly it more. I flew my 150 (76M) 400 hours in 6 months, and my costs, all in, including even FBO fees etc, were $54/hour.
James331
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If the plane didn't have a working fuel gauge it wasn't legal to fly period.
And aside from the plane being unairworthy without a fuel gauge, if the plane isn't in a condition they would let you solo it, it's not in a condition that it should be in the air regardless of the law.
Also instead of letting them put you into a more expensive plane, you should have just went to another school.
Solo is normally around 15hrs and PPL in 60, most of the people who go over that don't fly very often, or start and stop their training.
Sadly in aviation, unless you have friends or family who fly, you don't know any better till you're already in it.
I'd also be talking to the school about a full refund for the times in the plane, for any flights you did in the plane while it was unairworthy. Depending on their reaction I would entertain calling your local FSDO.
And aside from the plane being unairworthy without a fuel gauge, if the plane isn't in a condition they would let you solo it, it's not in a condition that it should be in the air regardless of the law.
Also instead of letting them put you into a more expensive plane, you should have just went to another school.
Solo is normally around 15hrs and PPL in 60, most of the people who go over that don't fly very often, or start and stop their training.
Sadly in aviation, unless you have friends or family who fly, you don't know any better till you're already in it.
I'd also be talking to the school about a full refund for the times in the plane, for any flights you did in the plane while it was unairworthy. Depending on their reaction I would entertain calling your local FSDO.
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mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've always been able to solo someone in less than 20 hours, usually around 12-15 hours from memory. Where I'm at now it's $45 CFI, $115 C152, $145 C172, and a PA28-140 and Arrow, forget the rates for those. It's nontowered, practice area 4-5 east of the field, Class C 20 miles north, and many nontowered airports within 25miles. Very efficient for students and their pocket books. I "inherited" 2 students, one w/ around 40 hrs and hasn't soloed yet and isn't ready after flying twice with him, and the other around 28 and he's about ready (soloed back in '88). I don't need the money nor time, but I will ensure they learn thoroughly and if that takes a bit longer so be it. I am there on time, answer phone/texts, and enjoying it. Started a student last weekend from scratch, my 42 year old daughter, so it's fun for me. Taught my son back in '89 for his PPC.
dmspilot
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I know, it wasn't the best example to use to help make my point.
Btw, add four 100-hour inspections and student pilots beating on it and see how much your cost goes up.
mtuomi
En-Route
Not that much, my annual inspection part was around $900 (and this was in the Bay area). 100-hour would've been less. Maybe $10-12/hr more.
Tires are cheap, everything else is an insurance event in a 150... That insurance is of course more too for a flight school.
That cost also includes stuff like going all LEDs (including Whelen landing light, not just the cheap Amazon stuff), updating the IFR GPS to latest database, making it IFR legal, spending quite a lot of nights at different Signatlanticmark FBOs including a couple of class B's etc - something most flight school 150's don't have to think about.
Unless you had some major events (I only had two), I'd say you just need to fly yours more. I can imagine it's hard to break even at 100 hours in commercial ops, but I'd say it's almost impossible not to make money at 400 hours.
paflyer
Final Approach
Are you retired? Where the hell did you find the time? That’s avg 2hrs a day. And $22000.
dmspilot
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It's not about my plane. I shouldn't have brought it up except to illustrate that Joe Schmoe off the street might think I make $90/hr in pure profit when this is not the case.
An owner flying his own plane and computing their cost over the number of hours they fly it isn't comparable to a business relying on customers to pay its expenses. If there is a flight school out there making $100/hr "in pure profit" as was said earlier...maybe I need to go into business at that location... but the accuracy of that observation is doubtful.
James331
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Sounds like someone butt hurt that $70 LED lights preform just the same as their $300 light lol
mtuomi
En-Route
Not butt hurt, had I known the $70 LEDs would've been fine back then, I would've bought one. Wasted a bit of money there and I'm the first one to admit it.
But not butt hurt, $300 is a f*** all in the grand scheme of things.
mtuomi
En-Route
I wanted to switch careers and knew I had to build time to do it. My motivation was that every hour I flew took me closer to that goal.
I flew pretty much every day, and did a couple of long cross countries. I worked mostly with European customers at that time, so my working day started at 3AM but I was done by noon. So I had plenty of time.
mtuomi
En-Route
Yeah, not disagreeing with you at all. Just saying you need to fly your plane more to make profit (even though you'll never see $100/hr from a 150
)
James331
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Was this all on your dime? Why not work and get paid for the hours and enjoy the ride to however many hours whatever job you wanted required?
To me it's wasn't a count down to the hours for XYZ job, it was a epic journey and growth as a pilot, I didn't, and still don't, have a end goal, just taking it as it comes and trying to keep challenging myself whilst providing a good QOL.
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mtuomi
En-Route
Yep all paid by myself, plan was to do 250->500 but I ended up going a bit over before got I hired at my first job. (Timing didn't work out for the survey/Alaska/banner tow season), The 250 hour pilot job market ain't rosy. Much easier with 135 VFR mins.
My epic journey started with buying that plane, I loved every second of owning that thing. Thankfully I could afford to do that part of the journey on my own dime.
abqtj
Pre-takeoff checklist
Exactly.
I my airport it can take anywhere from 10-25+ minutes from the time I start the engine until I even take off. Really depends on the day (and me doing everything correctly and efficiently, I know that plays in to it). Getting a departure window can take a handful of minutes from time to time. They get us out as quick as they can, but I know I've sat 10 minutes at the hold short a few times. Just the nature of the beast.
One time to get out quickly (there was a movie shoot happening at our hanger) we had a tight window to start up and leave, so my CFI did 75% of engine start-up, etc...we even did the run up on the roll to get out of there quicker because we burned about an hour (not charged time, but time nonetheless) waiting for the opportunity to depart.
Take that 10-25+ and let's call it easily 15 minutes per lesson. That's probably going low...I'm on about my 46th lesson I think. So that's a good 10+ Hobbs hours of my time.
Steve Kanefsky
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Yeah I wasn't even counting the startup, taxi, runup, hold time but just the time in flight before we start any practice maneuvers or landings. I'd guess probably close to 30 minutes on average before practicing any maneuvers, landings, emergency procedures, etc., and another 30 minutes to get back until the master switches go off.
Paulie
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The seventies my brother was in the air explorers, the plane was $5 an hour and instructor was free! In 82 I paid $1500 total for my ppl at a regular flight school.
Steve Kanefsky
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Well, in the seventies my income was zero and in 82 I think I was making $3.35/hour, so as a percentage of income it's still more affordable for me to fly now than it was then
easik
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If I knew then what I know now I would have. Like most students who start their flight training, I was too excited to becoming a pilot that I naively looked past some important things. Generally you saw your school and instructor(s) as the experts.
easik
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That I am. Becoming a pilot was a dream come true for me. Having that ID card in my wallet keeps me warm at night