Water wells

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docmirror

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This is my first time buying land in NM and the water well rules are to put it mildly, rather bizarre.

I found the water rights DB for the state, http://www.ose.state.nm.us/WRAB/index.php and looked up the water well in there, and the info doesn't match the seller name. I can't find anywhere that says the water well permit issued originally transfers to the new owner upon the selling of the land. The property has been sold twice since the well was drilled, and it appears neither of the prev owners bothered to have the well permit moved to their name.

So - here's what I'm wondering. If I buy the place, and then subsequent send a notice to the NM office of state water eng the new info on the land and well owner, is this going to be an issue to move it in to my name? If it's going to be an issue, what recourse do I have to take control of the well on my land and draw water from it when it's in the name of the first permit holder?

Nowhere on the NM ground water resource website is there a discussion of transfer rights to a well(or water). I presume the water rights go with the property includes the well, but there's no blanket statement anywhere to that effect. I am getting water(but not mineral) rights down to 1000', but in the title commitment, there's no mention of well rights. Hmmmmmm?
 
Do you need a permit to have a well on your property, or do you need a permit to drill a well? I know nothing about it, I'm just curious.
 
docmirror said:
This is my first time buying land in NM and the water well rules are to put it mildly, rather bizarre.

I found the water rights DB for the state, http://www.ose.state.nm.us/WRAB/index.php and looked up the water well in there, and the info doesn't match the seller name. I can't find anywhere that says the water well permit issued originally transfers to the new owner upon the selling of the land. The property has been sold twice since the well was drilled, and it appears neither of the prev owners bothered to have the well permit moved to their name.

So - here's what I'm wondering. If I buy the place, and then subsequent send a notice to the NM office of state water eng the new info on the land and well owner, is this going to be an issue to move it in to my name? If it's going to be an issue, what recourse do I have to take control of the well on my land and draw water from it when it's in the name of the first permit holder?

Nowhere on the NM ground water resource website is there a discussion of transfer rights to a well(or water). I presume the water rights go with the property includes the well, but there's no blanket statement anywhere to that effect. I am getting water(but not mineral) rights down to 1000', but in the title commitment, there's no mention of well rights. Hmmmmmm?
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Normally water rights are specific to surface water diversions, and groundwater rights go with the land. The driller's permit is irrelevant and it will be in the name of whoever originally owned the land.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
The drilling permit is entirely separate from use of the well.

Did you find this page?
http://www.ose.state.nm.us/WR/forms.php#groundwater
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It's been awhile but I believe I had to sign similar forms for the two homes I purchased which had domestic wells. Neither home was in New Mexico and all the states have their own little quirks...that said, a home sale that severed the domestic water well would be unusual.
 
I don't live in NM, but I can't imagine there's anything you need to send in to the state. Just use the well if you want to, or don't. No one is going to come knocking at your door telling you that you can't use the water on your land. Now, if you start doing something commercial (runs into land-use coding) or try and collect water, many states have rules against impeding watershed flows.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
I don't live in NM, but I can't imagine there's anything you need to send in to the state. Just use the well if you want to, or don't. No one is going to come knocking at your door telling you that you can't use the water on your land. Now, if you start doing something commercial (runs into land-use coding) or try and collect water, many states have rules against impeding watershed flows.
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Yep, until city franchise/corporate water comes, then you have to buy from them pumping the same aquifer. You also have to be careful about installing a cistern to collect rainwater from your roof, some places that is illegal without a permit. When I was looking at a property in Colorado that apparently was a big issue to get through. Off grid properties are perfect for fuel cells since you get electricity, heat, and water, from the fuel.
 
Henning said:
Yep, until city franchise/corporate water comes, then you have to buy from them pumping the same aquifer. You also have to be careful about installing a cistern to collect rainwater from your roof, some places that is illegal without a permit. When I was looking at a property in Colorado that apparently was a big issue to get through. Off grid properties are perfect for fuel cells since you get electricity, heat, and water, from the fuel.
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it gets worse - in Colorado you don't own your grey water so using shower or wash water to irrigate the grass is illegal
 
Jeff Oslick said:
The drilling permit is entirely separate from use of the well.

Did you find this page?
http://www.ose.state.nm.us/WR/forms.php#groundwater
Click to expand...

I did, but so far, none of the people listed with wells in the area are the person selling the land. Which gives me pause. I'm finding out that the current owner never applied for the well to be moved into his name, and the previous owner is also not listed in any of the wells in the area.

It's like a 'Where's Waldo' of well permits right now! lol
 
SoonerAviator said:
I don't live in NM, but I can't imagine there's anything you need to send in to the state. Just use the well if you want to, or don't. No one is going to come knocking at your door telling you that you can't use the water on your land. Now, if you start doing something commercial (runs into land-use coding) or try and collect water, many states have rules against impeding watershed flows.
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Sorry, but no. Clearly that's what the prev guy did and now he's trying to sell the land including a well. But - he doesn't have a permit for the well, even though he owns the ground water rights to his land. NM and CO, and other western states are kinda persnickety about water rights which is why I'm doing it right. The wells are defined in many different ways, and this was supposed to be a domestic well allowing inside use, and limited outside use for shrubs and decorative plantings around the primary structure. No ag, no ranch, no pools, water features, or fountains.
 
docmirror said:
I did, but so far, none of the people listed with wells in the area are the person selling the land. Which gives me pause. I'm finding out that the current owner never applied for the well to be moved into his name, and the previous owner is also not listed in any of the wells in the area.

It's like a 'Where's Waldo' of well permits right now! lol
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A quick call to the state engineer should clear this up for you. Most of those folks just want their records to be correct so they'll tell you how to fix any problems.
 
Geico266 said:
Ask the title company closing the deal.
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The title company is providing a commitment showing history of deed for the land, and the surface water and ground water rights with no mineral rights. So - I will own the ground water under to 1000', but I have to deal with the state of NM to get it out of the ground. No domestic well permit, no pumping, whether there's a well or not, doesn't matter if you pump water out, you are stealing it.

The state of NM also requires a water usage log be sent in every quarter estimating usage. I mean they are serious about this in dry states.
 
docmirror said:
The title company is providing a commitment showing history of deed for the land, and the surface water and ground water rights with no mineral rights. So - I will own the ground water under to 1000', but I have to deal with the state of NM to get it out of the ground. No domestic well permit, no pumping, whether there's a well or not, doesn't matter if you pump water out, you are stealing it.

The state of NM also requires a water usage log be sent in every quarter estimating usage. I mean they are serious about this in dry states.
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Wow. And I thought California was uptight.
 
Clark1961 said:
A quick call to the state engineer should clear this up for you. Most of those folks just want their records to be correct so they'll tell you how to fix any problems.
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Chatted with Louisa in Santa Fe, and she was most helpful but if there's no well permit - there's no well permit.
 
docmirror said:
The wells are defined in many different ways, and this was supposed to be a domestic well allowing inside use, and limited outside use for shrubs and decorative plantings around the primary structure. No ag, no ranch, no pools, water features, or fountains.
Click to expand...

That's better than a domestic well in Colorado. I was told I could not use a drop of water outside the house. It's funny how a hose bib magically appeared on the back of the house one day...the house was in forest fire country and it seemed prudent to have the means to wet things down a bit if necessary.
 
docmirror said:
Chatted with Louisa in Santa Fe, and she was most helpful but if there's no well permit - there's no well permit.
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ouch, how much to pull a new permit?
 
Clark1961 said:
ouch, how much to pull a new permit?
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I think that's where we're headed. $127 for the permit ap, then once it's producing there's an insp that is supposed to be done for potability and production along with depth readings and water qual. I think the whole thing is going to run a few hundred, which is better than drilling all over again.
 
I keep trying to tell y'all fresh water is the biggest problem facing us, and it will only get worse as population continues to grow. We need to harness fresh water as a waste product from our electric production. We could have unlimited fresh water reclaimed not only from the fuel, but also reclaimed from salt and polluted water from the waste heat of the process.

We need to quit wasting 70% of the fuel we consume into the atmosphere while only extracting one product.
 
Henning said:
Yep, until city franchise/corporate water comes, then you have to buy from them pumping the same aquifer. You also have to be careful about installing a cistern to collect rainwater from your roof, some places that is illegal without a permit. When I was looking at a property in Colorado that apparently was a big issue to get through. Off grid properties are perfect for fuel cells since you get electricity, heat, and water, from the fuel.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Colorado/Cali/Oregon is what I was remembering in regards to cistern use and retention ponds. It gets pretty crazy when you can't collect water that falls from the sky, or reuse water that you paid for, and then poured down the sink! :eek:
 
docmirror said:
Sorry, but no. Clearly that's what the prev guy did and now he's trying to sell the land including a well. But - he doesn't have a permit for the well, even though he owns the ground water rights to his land. NM and CO, and other western states are kinda persnickety about water rights which is why I'm doing it right. The wells are defined in many different ways, and this was supposed to be a domestic well allowing inside use, and limited outside use for shrubs and decorative plantings around the primary structure. No ag, no ranch, no pools, water features, or fountains.
Click to expand...

My point was simply that if there was a well permit originally done, then there would seem to be little reason to have it transferred into his name in most states. Obviously checking with specific city/county/state regs for NM is the only way to be sure. It's somewhat akin to getting a building permit for a house put in your name, even if it was built before you were born. Now, if the well was drilled without the permit he would need to have the appropriate permits completed, same as if a structure had been built on the land without permits.
 
SoonerAviator said:
My point was simply that if there was a well permit originally done, then there would seem to be little reason to have it transferred into his name in most states. Obviously checking with specific city/county/state regs for NM is the only way to be sure. It's somewhat akin to getting a building permit for a house put in your name, even if it was built before you were born. Now, if the well was drilled without the permit he would need to have the appropriate permits completed, same as if a structure had been built on the land without permits.
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It doesn't work that way out here in the dry states. Permit to construct is not the same as permit to operate. Domestic isn't to bad. Commercial is a whole 'nother kettle of fish with monthly reporting requirements.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
My point was simply that if there was a well permit originally done, then there would seem to be little reason to have it transferred into his name in most states. Obviously checking with specific city/county/state regs for NM is the only way to be sure. It's somewhat akin to getting a building permit for a house put in your name, even if it was built before you were born. Now, if the well was drilled without the permit he would need to have the appropriate permits completed, same as if a structure had been built on the land without permits.
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You see that's why I started the thread and mention NM specifically. In many states back east, the well follows the deed automatically and nothing further needs to be done. I recall that was the case in MD when I owned back there, and also in PA. In fact, if I were to look back on my deed for PA it had some statement like; 'including any water bearing wells, within the confines....'.

NM and other western states where water is scarce are significantly more anal about the water. Note that each well, no matter where, or on what property is supposed to be either metered, or have a log. They are serious on this, and it's interesting that the first thing the girl said from the state water board is that she didn't have a log for the well that I called about, even though it turned out not to be the right well.

http://nmwrrs.ose.state.nm.us/nmwrrs/meterReport.html
 
SoonerAviator said:
Agreed. Colorado/Cali/Oregon is what I was remembering in regards to cistern use and retention ponds. It gets pretty crazy when you can't collect water that falls from the sky, or reuse water that you paid for, and then poured down the sink! :eek:
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Well, couple things of note, the CEO of Nestlé is quoted that people do not have the right to clean water. This is while they, a Belgian company IIRC, is selling the water that feeds the Great Lakes to China by the shipload, all bottled to get around the laws against it.
 
Henning said:
Well, couple things of note, the CEO of Nestlé is quoted that people do not have the right to clean water. This is while they, a Belgian company IIRC, is selling the water that feeds the Great Lakes to China by the shipload, all bottled to get around the laws against it.
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Well, technically it's not a "right" when stipulated as such. I'm sure we'll all feel a bit differently when we're trying to filter the Mississippi for a drink. :mad2:
 
If humans don't have the right to fresh water, they don't have the right to life.
 
Clark1961 said:
it gets worse - in Colorado you don't own your grey water so using shower or wash water to irrigate the grass is illegal
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It waters the grass in a way. My waste water goes out to my septic field and makes it green. Well, water and other stuff make it green. :D
 
My septic permit is for black water only. Gray water just goes into the leach field with no tankage. One of the last like that prolly, now everything has to go into the tank and be pumped out. No gray water leaching for modern systems.

I chatted with a driller and he said our best bet is to just pull another permit, have him check the bore case, and do the perc and water qual tests then submit it all to the state. I told the seller and him to go ahead with that. Love it when a plan comes together.
 
docmirror said:
My septic permit is for black water only. Gray water just goes into the leach field with no tankage. One of the last like that prolly, now everything has to go into the tank and be pumped out. No gray water leaching for modern systems.
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Everything that goes into my drains in the house goes into the tank and the liquids eventually go to the leach field. But I'm sure that isn't pure water. Which reminds me, I should have the tank pumped out in the spring. It's huge (I watched them put it in) but I haven't had it done in many years.
 
It seems to me that when I bought my house here in NM, we had to fill out a single form to transfer the well permit to me. It was all done at the closing.

I don't have a meter on my well, and I don't pay for water, I just pay for the electricity to run the pump. Which is good since my wife grows vegetables and waters morning and evening during the summer.

The well is inside a well insulated and heated shed. I had the water line freeze one time and I won't let that happen again.

My well is 650 feet deep and hits water at 500 feet, and the water taste is MUCH better than the city water. I don't have to chew it first.
 
Clark1961 said:
That's better than a domestic well in Colorado. I was told I could not use a drop of water outside the house. It's funny how a hose bib magically appeared on the back of the house one day...the house was in forest fire country and it seemed prudent to have the means to wet things down a bit if necessary.
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Depends on the well permit. I can irrigate roughly an acre of my four. However it would take a real busybody to notice if I irrigated more since my well is not required to be metered on the style of permit I have.

Mine is also weird / old style in that it defines how much area I can irrigate, not a specific number of acre-feet of water.

Many newer permits are required to be metered and the meter readings sent in quarterly or annually to the County, and defined in acre-feet.

Just depends on the paperwork. And often, the age of the paperwork. Older permits usually have more lenient rules.

My usage permit was finalized after the drilling of the well in the early 1980s. It's based on 100 year use. The State Engineer is rumbling that they're about to switch to 300 year use of the aquifer(s).

And new permits could also be limited to one aquifer, not all aquifers beneath the land, soon.

Castle Rock only exists because they can pump from the Arapahoe aquifer, for example. They couldn't get water rights to any surface water at all. It's all accounted for. The city literally couldn't have a city water system if they couldn't drill down to Arapahoe.
 
denverpilot said:
Depends on the well permit. I can irrigate roughly an acre of my four. However it would take a real busybody to notice if I irrigated more since my well is not required to be metered on the style of permit I have.

Mine is also weird / old style in that it defines how much area I can irrigate, not a specific number of acre-feet of water.

Many newer permits are required to be metered and the meter readings sent in quarterly or annually to the County, and defined in acre-feet.

Just depends on the paperwork. And often, the age of the paperwork. Older permits usually have more lenient rules.

My usage permit was finalized after the drilling of the well in the early 1980s. It's based on 100 year use. The State Engineer is rumbling that they're about to switch to 300 year use of the aquifer(s).

And new permits could also be limited to one aquifer, not all aquifers beneath the land, soon.

Castle Rock only exists because they can pump from the Arapahoe aquifer, for example. They couldn't get water rights to any surface water at all. It's all accounted for. The city literally couldn't have a city water system if they couldn't drill down to Arapahoe.
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My well is not metered and it was drilled in 1991. The HOA says I can water 6,000 sq. ft. I watered the area around the house for a few years until the grass/weeds were established, but since then I don't water at all.
 
Everskyward said:
My well is not metered and it was drilled in 1991. The HOA says I can water 6,000 sq. ft. I watered the area around the house for a few years until the grass/weeds were established, but since then I don't water at all.
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Yup, anyone can do the homework to get an allowance for outdoor use. It's a little expensive for a stand alone house in the middle of no-where so that's one time a HOA is actually good. The house I had in Bailey with the domestic well was a stand-alone. I probably could have gotten expanded use since the aquifer had recharge. The downside was that it was only a 2 acre lot and there were users downstream. At least it was better than the development across the little valley where they had some 1/4 acre lots on well and septic! :yikes: don't drink the water in Harris Park.

edit: it was a 2 acre lot on a hillside...
 
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Clark1961 said:
Yup, anyone can do the homework to get an allowance for outdoor use. It's a little expensive for a stand alone house in the middle of no-where so that's one time a HOA is actually good. The house I had in Bailey with the domestic well was a stand-alone. I probably could have gotten expanded use since the aquifer had recharge. The downside was that it was only a 1 acre lot and there were users downstream. At least it was better than the development across the little valley where they had some 1/4 acre lots on well and septic! :yikes: don't drink the water in Harris Park.
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YUCK...........

Where is the throw up smiley ????
 
Clark1961 said:
Yup, anyone can do the homework to get an allowance for outdoor use. It's a little expensive for a stand alone house in the middle of no-where so that's one time a HOA is actually good. The house I had in Bailey with the domestic well was a stand-alone. I probably could have gotten expanded use since the aquifer had recharge. The downside was that it was only a 1 acre lot and there were users downstream. At least it was better than the development across the little valley where they had some 1/4 acre lots on well and septic! :yikes: don't drink the water in Harris Park.
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How deep were the wells?

My septic is about 1/2 acre from my well head, but the well is 900' down... ;)
 
denverpilot said:
How deep were the wells?

My septic is about 1/2 acre from my well head, but the well is 900' down... ;)
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It depended on where you were on the hillside - the water table was just about the valley floor. The ground was all degraded granite so basically a high permeability rubble - a well organized rubble but still a rubble.

The upside was a leach field was difficult to plug. The downside was that there was nothing to stop vertical movement of liquid from the leach field.
 
My septic field is quite a distance from my well head, on the other side of the house. However, the neighbor's well head is closer to my septic field than mine is.
 
Everskyward said:
My septic field is quite a distance from my well head, on the other side of the house. However, the neighbor's well head is closer to my septic field than mine is.
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youse guys actually have soil out on the prairie...
 
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