Water, water, where?

mikea

mikea

Touchdown! Greaser!
Gone West
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iWin
Another in the series, "Mike discovers common knowlege"...

My water bill shows I used 4000 gallons 12/15-1/15. It may be rounded up to the nearest 1000, but it means that me and the dog are using 133 gallons of water a day. I know she splashes the water out of her drinking water feeder, but it ain't 100 gallons worth.

Being here alone, I don't even shower that much., :D and when I do I turn the valve off while I soap up.

I have clothes washers and the dishwasher running maybe 2-3 times a week.

What kind of usage do youse folks with families see?

Should I call to get the meter checked?
 
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Greebo said:
Got a leaky toilet?
Click to expand...

Nope. I fixed them..and I when I did have one running it used a lot MORE water. I gotta figure you can easily waste hundreds of a gallons per hour at an open valve.
 
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About twice a year this happens to me. The water meter reader needs glasses. We call, they come out and re-read it and then we get a credit.
 
I actually heard somewhere that the average American uses about what they quoted you Mike. Of course, you're no average American...
 
Wife and I use an avg of 128 gallons/day (water softner has a meter on it!!).
 
When I lived in Charlotte we would occasionally get one of these wild a__ bills, and when we called about them, we learned that they decided to take an "estimated" reading that month, and said that they would true it up the next month.

I of course would say that is unacceptable (no need to give an interest-free loan to the water utility) and then they would either accept our reading of the meter (done by us without AFSCME assistance I might add!) or send someone out to re-read the meter.

I'm back on a well now - woo hoo!
 
When designing septic systems for housing, engineers plan on about 50 gallons per person per day minimum and about 80 gallons/person/ day maximum. Not all residential water use goes down the drain but most does.

-Skip
 
About five months after I bought a townhome, I went to take a shower on a late morning I wasn't going to work. I had no water. I was confused. Why no water?

It made no sense. I looked around outside and saw no maintenance going on. The townhome complex was still fairly new and it was possible to have short interruptions to connect new homes but none were happening. Then, I noticed the cover over the meter had been disturbed. I looked inside as I put it back in place and there was a lock on the valve. I was shut off. But, why???

I paid my bill every month by bank. I verified on the bank page the last payment went through. It did as it had every other month... the minimum charge of $42 a month for water, sewer and trash. So, I called the city clerk's office. They tell me I short-paid my bill and was past due. Past due??? It was paid in full! This is when she said I still owed some $60 on the bill from two months earlier. Now, I was really confused. Huh?

I dig my bills out and look. I had never paid attention beyond the first few that were always the same. Not even filling the water bed raised the bill. Two months earlier, there's a water usage of 8,800 gallons. How is this this even possible?

She asks me if I had an issue with toilet valves. Not that I can tell. I use only one of the three in the home. The valve is shut off on one the other two. I then do a quick calculation. That comes down to an average of twelve gallons an hour. I asked her, "Do you think you'd miss the sound of that much water running?"

They adjusted the bill by cutting the difference with me and sent a crew out to replace the meter. I talked with the builder who shunned any responsibility. Oddly, no one could explain it. For a month, I shut off the inside valve every morning before I left for work.

That current month, my "usage" was over 6,500 gallons. How?

I never got an explanation but I ate the cost. Then for two years, everything was quite normal. When I went to pay the final bill after selling, I'm told the amount due. Huh? I had a usage of 2,600 gallons while the minimum was 1,000. The funny thing... I wasn't even living there!

The next time I buy, the inspector will have "Gremlins" added to his list.
 
smigaldi said:
BTW Mike have you noticed the increase of water since Pancho moved in?

Look at this video and it may be one explanation
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WofFb_eOxxA
Click to expand...

That is one high water pressure house. I never saw refills that fast until I got my new place.

Pancho doesn't do things like that. She doesn't even try to go for her food until I give it to her.

(Although I notice she looks longingly at the floor of my walk-in shower when she wants to go out. :rolleyes: I *really* wonder what kind of life experiences she's had in previous homes. )

steingar said:
I actually heard somewhere that the average American uses about what they quoted you Mike. Of course, you're no average American...
Click to expand...

I was about to concede that flushes at 7(?) gallons each and washer loads at much more, might do it, but I don't think so. It's not 15 a day!
 
Just got my water bill today. 27,000 gallons for two adults, one child (4) and two cats. That's 9000 gallons per month, 300 per day. Mine has historical data on it to and it's consistent over the past year. I KNOW we don't have any water leaks because I've got a flow and pressure gauge where the supply enters the house and when the faucets are shut the flow is zero, and pressure remains constant when the water is shut off at the street.
 
smigaldi said:
No city water where I live either. It is a community well but I do have septic.
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Everyone out here has individual wells and individual septic. Glad my well isn't near anyone's septic. I've always wondered how well the septic water is purified by the rocks or whatever before it gets down to where the well picks it up (200' or so). :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
Everyone out here has individual wells and individual septic. Glad my well isn't near anyone's septic. I've always wondered how well the septic water is purified by the rocks or whatever before it gets down to where the well picks it up (200' or so). :dunno:
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Well it depends on the rocks. A lot of times the water does not actually go straight down from your septic. It may travel many miles before it finally gets into the aquafir. I know from cave diving in northern Florida that the water does get pretty clean. Zepherhills water just takes it straight out of the springs. The very springs I am diving in and ...well you know ;).
 
bstratt said:
Wife and I use an avg of 128 gallons/day (water softner has a meter on it!!).
Click to expand...

Skip Miller said:
When designing septic systems for housing, engineers plan on about 50 gallons per person per day minimum and about 80 gallons/person/ day maximum. Not all residential water use goes down the drain but most does.

-Skip
Click to expand...

TMetzinger said:
Just got my water bill today. 27,000 gallons for two adults, one child (4) and two cats. That's 9000 gallons per month, 300 per day. Mine has historical data on it to and it's consistent over the past year. I KNOW we don't have any water leaks because I've got a flow and pressure gauge where the supply enters the house and when the faucets are shut the flow is zero, and pressure remains constant when the water is shut off at the street.
Click to expand...

IIRC, sailors on the old wooden ships got a gallon of water per day. It wasn't good water either.:vomit:
 
Everskyward said:
Everyone out here has individual wells and individual septic. Glad my well isn't near anyone's septic. I've always wondered how well the septic water is purified by the rocks or whatever before it gets down to where the well picks it up (200' or so). :dunno:
Click to expand...

Usually, waste water goes from the house to a septic tank. in the tank, solids go to the bottom while water exits from the top. From there, that water goes into a gravel/sand leach field (10'x30' or so) which helps filter it initially. From there, into the ground and your neighbor's well.

Smart money has the septic pumped regularly, too many solids in the leach field and it becomes clogged and that's one expensive replacement. Pumping usually runs $200 or so. A leach field in NYS can be as high as $6000. Also if you live alone and aren't home enough, yeast or one of the commercial products available should be introduced in the system to keep the bacteria up so waste naturally breaks down.

And to pose a question on a different note (I have no idea how to do multiple quotes) how do the water companies get away with setting such a high mininmum that a single person can't come close to using. Seems to me the minimum monthly charge ought to be what a single guy in an apt. would use. Instead, they seem to allow, and charge for, about three times that amount.

Mike
 
michael Killacky said:
...And to pose a question on a different note (I have no idea how to do multiple quotes) how do the water companies get away with setting such a high mininmum that a single person can't come close to using. Seems to me the minimum monthly charge ought to be what a single guy in an apt. would use. Instead, they seem to allow, and charge for, about three times that amount.
Click to expand...

If they changed the system they'd just do what the power and gas companies do. First note that they rub in that they pulled off the scam of the century by separating off the actual sources, so you get billed by "Your Gas Delivery Company."

Your $100 bill has about $40 in 10-12 various "delivery" fees, THEN they start charging you for the actual gas...which they buy "on the open market" from their parent company. :mad:

So if you used 0 therms of gas you'd still pay over $50 with the sundry taxes added.
 
mikea said:
If they changed the system they'd just do what the power and gas companies do. First note that they rub in that they pulled off the scam of the century by separating off the actual sources, so you get billed by "Your Gas Delivery Company."

Your $100 bill has about $40 in 10-12 various "delivery" fees, THEN they start charging you for the actual gas...which they buy "on the open market" from their parent company. :mad:

So if you used 0 therms of gas you'd still pay over $50 with the sundry taxes added.
Click to expand...

Same with electric. When we were given the option to switch electric suppliers, I looked into it. Turns out 13 cents per KW/hr broke down into 10 cents for delivery and 3 cents for the electric. Had I switched, I was only haggling over getting that 3 cents down to 2.5 or so. Then I still had to pay NYSEG 10 cents for delivery. I called them and asked how much if I pick it myself. No sense of humor.

And all this with the blessing of New York State. I've got an uncle that did 4 years for a scam not one thousandths as lucrative as this. At least I've still got a little respect for him.

Mike
 
mikea said:
If they changed the system they'd just do what the power and gas companies do. First note that they rub in that they pulled off the scam of the century by separating off the actual sources, so you get billed by "Your Gas Delivery Company."

Your $100 bill has about $40 in 10-12 various "delivery" fees, THEN they start charging you for the actual gas...which they buy "on the open market" from their parent company. :mad:

So if you used 0 therms of gas you'd still pay over $50 with the sundry taxes added.
Click to expand...


From the Gas/Electric bill I just paid this evening -

Customer charge $8.25
Delivery charge 278.13 Therms @ $.30456/Therm $84.71
Cost of gas 278.13 Therms @ $.77332/Therm $215.08
Gas Conservation Program Charge 278.13 Therms @ $.00792/Therm $2.20

A 3.852% state untility tax is included in gas rates changed.

They get you for being a customer. They get you for delivering the gas. They get you for the cost of the gas and then they get you for a conservation program that you don't even know exists. It's a racket!


At least I had a credit on my electric bill for wind power. No idea where that came from. Still paid almost $300 for electricity. And we have hydro around here!
 
michael Killacky said:
Same with electric. When we were given the option to switch electric suppliers, I looked into it. Turns out 13 cents per KW/hr broke down into 10 cents for delivery and 3 cents for the electric. Had I switched, I was only haggling over getting that 3 cents down to 2.5 or so. Then I still had to pay NYSEG 10 cents for delivery. I called them and asked how much if I pick it myself. No sense of humor.

And all this with the blessing of New York State. I've got an uncle that did 4 years for a scam not one thousandths as lucrative as this. At least I've still got a little respect for him.

Mike
Click to expand...

Don't get started.

In Illinois we paid the highest electric rates in the country because the ratepayers were investing in the "too cheap to meter" nuclear power plants. Then they broke up the company to give the nukes to the parent company so the Illinois ratepayers can pay "market rates" for the power from the plants they took it in the shorts to build, which sell power nationwide.

The Illinois legislature is still smarting from the shellacking they took on OKing that deal. When the power rates were unfrozen and went ballistic they held Edison's feet the fire and got about 20% back as credit on power bills. :dunno:
 
Ghery said:
From the Gas/Electric bill I just paid this evening -

Customer charge $8.25
Delivery charge 278.13 Therms @ $.30456/Therm $84.71
Cost of gas 278.13 Therms @ $.77332/Therm $215.08
Gas Conservation Program Charge 278.13 Therms @ $.00792/Therm $2.20

A 3.852% state untility tax is included in gas rates changed.

They get you for being a customer. They get you for delivering the gas. They get you for the cost of the gas and then they get you for a conservation program that you don't even know exists. It's a racket!


At least I had a credit on my electric bill for wind power. No idea where that came from. Still paid almost $300 for electricity. And we have hydro around here!
Click to expand...
Last place I had with a gas furnace had such warped gas bills. That never made sense to me, whatsoever. Can't they simply charge per cubic meter of gas??? Instead, it was charged based on some stupid multiplier that was subject to change EVERY month.

They said the cost of gas would go down after deregulation. How would you know??? :dunno:
 
Greebo said:
How did the neighbor's lawn look?
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LOL Hard to tell given there was so little with either of us.

Actually, all that was covered by the HOA and their exorbitant fees to the landscaper. I'm not sure which was the larger rip off... city water or the HOA.
 
Ghery said:
From the Gas/Electric bill I just paid this evening -

Customer charge $8.25
Delivery charge 278.13 Therms @ $.30456/Therm $84.71
Cost of gas 278.13 Therms @ $.77332/Therm $215.08
Gas Conservation Program Charge 278.13 Therms @ $.00792/Therm $2.20

A 3.852% state untility tax is included in gas rates changed.

They get you for being a customer. They get you for delivering the gas. They get you for the cost of the gas and then they get you for a conservation program that you don't even know exists. It's a racket!


At least I had a credit on my electric bill for wind power. No idea where that came from. Still paid almost $300 for electricity. And we have hydro around here!
Click to expand...

Heh. My gas bills have literally been in the low hundreds. The gas company just lowered my budget payment and I'm not even trying that hard. I haven't programmed the auto-setback thermostats yet.

Every month I thank the old man who bought the 90% efficient furnace/ac.

My last month in my flat in a drafty Chicago balloon frame with a 1960s furnace was $350 and I had the thermostat way down because I wasn't there much.
 
According to the meter on my water softner, my Wife and I use 65-70 gallons/day. That includes two dogs and a cat.
We're on our own well and septic system too - the only way to go. B)
 
We moved into our new house in Ohio in September.

Our first meter reading (baseline, to set the billing) was 8/27.

Our next meter reading was 10/17.

In that timeframe, we had been home a total of 15 days. Ran the sprinklers a few times when we first moved in. Did 12 loads of laundry. Ran the dishwasher 9 times. Took two showers a day. Ran the ice maker occasionally.

How do I know all of this? Because I got a water bill for $600!!! What does that compute to in my district?

180,000 GALLONS!

It just didn't make sense. We computed it all out - based on the flow of our shower, average time we are in the shower (hey, I'm a finance nerd, what do you expect? My life is an excel spreadsheet), the whole nine yards. We computed a maximum potential consumption, even with absolute worst case usage of all of our water, was 3600 gallons -- which includes filling up the cat's water dish (half gallon every 2 days) and watering our lawn occasionally for those 15 days we were home.

We called the water company. No, sir, you did indeed use that much, we came back an checked.

My wife and I were blown away. Where was the 18 tractor-trailer tanker loads of water going? We spent a weekend digging around every nook and cranny of the property, looking for some small geyser leaking water. We called the water company, and very matter of factly said "There is just no way this is possible!"

They sent someone out. He hooked up his meter and sure enough, they were wrong. Somehow, somewhere, the tech screwed up the automated metering (just plug a box into the house and walk away) and made THE EXACT SAME MISTAKE when they came back to verify.

We had already paid the $600 and got a credit... but man oh man, what a nightmare.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Mike, can you see the meter face?
If so just turn off all the faucets in the house and see if you have zero movement. Better yet, read it before you go to bed, tell the dog no flushing and read it again in the morning.
I know it's obvious, but I just had to say it.
 
mikea said:
Another in the series, "Mike discovers common knowlege"...

My water bill shows I used 4000 gallons 12/15-1/15. It may be rounded up to the nearest 1000, but it means that me and the dog are using 133 gallons of water a day. I know she splashes the water out of her drinking water feeder, but it ain't 100 gallons worth.

Being here alone, I don't even shower that much., :D and when I do I turn the valve off while I soap up.

I have clothes washers and the dishwasher running maybe 2-3 times a week.

What kind of usage do youse folks with families see?

Should I call to get the meter checked?
Click to expand...

Was the first in the series "Dang, I've got an ugly dog...":D

Here's the deal, first, look at previous water bills and see if they are significantly lower.... What happens a lot of times is that you are billed on estimated useage and occassionally a meter reader will get an accurate reading and the issue an adjusted billing that catches up from last known reading, subtracts the intermediate estimated amounts and produces a bill for the difference. Either that, or you may have a meter that reads in liters.:D
 
Henning said:
Was the first in the series "Dang, I've got an ugly dog...":D
Click to expand...

If you think this one is ugly, I've got to find a picture of Bertha, my first bulldog. This one at least is mostly normal for the breed.

Henning said:
Here's the deal, first, look at previous water bills and see if they are significantly lower.... What happens a lot of times is that you are billed on estimated useage and occassionally a meter reader will get an accurate reading and the issue an adjusted billing that catches up from last known reading, subtracts the intermediate estimated amounts and produces a bill for the difference. Either that, or you may have a meter that reads in liters.:D
Click to expand...

The bill says, TYPE OF READ________ACTUAL. They have a transponder on the front wall of the house.

This bill, with $17 for garbage, is $50. My first bill was over $100, which I figured was due to me having to track down and fix all of the leaky toilets in the first few days that the water was turned back on.

I'll call the village for advice once I give them a chance to recover from digging the town out of the snow.
 
KennyFlys said:
Last place I had with a gas furnace had such warped gas bills. That never made sense to me, whatsoever. Can't they simply charge per cubic meter of gas??? Instead, it was charged based on some stupid multiplier that was subject to change EVERY month.

They said the cost of gas would go down after deregulation. How would you know??? :dunno:
Click to expand...


First, the density of a gas varies with the pressure so if they charged by the cubic foot they could cut their cost in half by dropping the pressure by that amount. Second the value of a heating fuel is based on the amount of energy delivered which is what the multiplier is for, it equalizes the variations in energy per cubic foot.
 
Andrew, makes ya wonder how many other houses ALSO happened to use 180,000 gallons! I mean, if he didn't know how to do it at YOUR house...
 
Mike,

That's probably not out of line. I don't have the current bill for the new (Virginia) house, but I do know that the San Antonio house consumed a LOT more (think: swimming pool) & it doubled when I used the lawn sprinklers. I've gone from $50-60 Water AND Sewer per month to $60-70 Water AND Sewer per 3-months.

Replace your shower head(s). Really. You'll cut the water consumption considerably & make the hot water last longer if there are two of you that shower in the morning. (If you run out of hot water in the shower, you've used 30-50 gallons). Likewise, the kitchen faucet.

But the biggest water user is the toilet. Old model toilets use up to 5 gallons per flush. (They also don't clog as easily). New toilets use somewhere between 1.5 and 2 gallons per flush.

Top-load washing machines can be 10 gal or more per cycle.

IIRC, toilets use up to 25% of the water consumption for a home...

It adds up.
 
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wsuffa said:
But the biggest water user is the toilet. Old model toilets use up to 5 gallons per flush. (They also don't clog as easily). New toilets use somewhere between 1.5 and 2 gallons per flush.
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I guess 1.5 gallons per flush times an average of 2 flushes required still saves a little water ...
 
I was talking to co-worker when I remembered that I had dealt with a mysterious basement flood several weeks back. Doh!

The carpet downstairs was soaked and the only cause I could find was a small puddle under the humidifier on the furnace. The one were I had paid the heating guy like $200 to replace the broken tray last year.

I turned the water at the tap valve and figured the water would dry up. After a few days - I don't go down there much - it started to get a musty smell. I rigged up my carpet cleaner to draw up as much water as possible. I got a gallon or two in the bucket.

I did some quick research and dashed off to Lowes to buy a good Westinghouse dehumidifier. That dried it up in a day or two. I've left it down there on automatic.

I wouldn't have guessed that that little water line could have dripped hundreds of gallons, but there was a lotta water in the carpet in two rooms.

We'll see how my next water bill looks.

I still gotta look and figure out what's wrong with the thing.

And thanks, Bill, but I've never run out of hot water. It doesn't add up that I could use water at that rate unless I missed a running valve somewhere. I guess I should get a flow restrictor for the shower someday.
 
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We just got our water bill yesterday. It was higher than last month but only by about $2. Total charge for 33 days...$11.13 That is for two people and two dogs. Keep in mind we are on septic and don't pay the double charge for outbound water. :D
 
mikea said:
If they changed the system they'd just do what the power and gas companies do. First note that they rub in that they pulled off the scam of the century by separating off the actual sources, so you get billed by "Your Gas Delivery Company."

Your $100 bill has about $40 in 10-12 various "delivery" fees, THEN they start charging you for the actual gas...which they buy "on the open market" from their parent company. :mad:

So if you used 0 therms of gas you'd still pay over $50 with the sundry taxes added.
Click to expand...

Now they are LITERALLY saying that! If you conserve gas your bill will change not at all!

...The Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan had opposed a key rider to the rate proposals, contending it would impose surcharges on customers for the delivery of gas they do not use. She argued the proposal would guarantee that utilities would earn extra profits especially when customers use less gas.

Analysis submitted to the commission by Madigan contended the proposed increase would charge customers an extra fee to protect utility revenues when customers conserve more than expected or when warm weather results in lower gas delivery sales, even if the company was earning the profits authorized by the commission.

The utility insists customers will not be charged for gas they don’t use.

http://www.suntimes.com/business/777641,gas020508.article
Click to expand...
 
Mike,

I pulled out an old bill here. 17,000 gallons in 3 months, almost 6,000 gallons a month. There's some outside use in there (as it spans back to autumn), but not a ton.

4,000 gallons in a month is not out of line.
 
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