Was I "that guy"?

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Hi all. Just trying to wrap my mind around a situation I encountered last week that just keeps bothering me. I'm still a student waiting for my checkride. Last week I decided to take a short 30 min cross country flight to meet my soon to be examiner, basically just to do something different. I announced at 8 miles that I was inbound and listened for any traffic in the area and to determine if any specific runway was being used (uncontrolled by the way). Based on radio calls, one plane was in the pattern. I am very good at visualization and can create a quick mental map of where everybody should be based on radio calls. At about 5 miles, I announced that I would cross mid field at TPA +500 and circle back to 45 degree left pattern entry on the runway being used by the other traffic. I announced my intentions again at 2 miles. The other traffic was taxiing back to the runway and about 500 feet from the hold short line. As I approached mid field, I confirmed the wind sock and runway, announced my intentions again and saw the plane approaching the hold short line. As I passed mid field, I heard the other traffic announce takeoff intentions, but do not remember if he announced staying in pattern. As I turned back towards the airport and began the 45 degree entry, I announced my intentions again.

This is where the mistake was that I know I made. My "great" visualization skills made me complacent assuming he was still climbing out and I focused my traffic scan for planes that I might run into in the pattern. I know, there could have been other no radio planes in traffic, I admit that it was a huge mistake on my part not to take a better look further upwind. I was just about to announce my turn to base, I heard a snarky announcement come over the radio from the other plane that he was abeam the numbers and he was annoyed to turn a 360. I felt the sinking feeling in my stomach about someone being so close. I shrugged it off and focused on finishing the flight and didn't think much else about it until I was preparing the plane to return to my home airport. The other pilot came over and confronted me, not angrily, but he made a point of letting me know that I cut him off in the pattern and he made the comment abeam the numbers to basically tell me that I messed up. To make it worse, he had been on his commercial checkride with the examiner I was there to meet. He also made a point that the examiner commented that I would have failed a checkride because of cutting him off. This of course ruined the rest of my "fun" flying day.

From what happened, I assume I was beginning the 45 degree entry as he was on crosswind. As I turned to downwind, he must have been on downwind already about .5 miles behind me. I realize my mistake that I should have looked more upwind. However, the more I think about his comments, the more it bothers me. Did I cut him off, or was he trying to cut me off?

Maybe this story will give other students something to think about.
 
This is why I don't like the "always do the midfield 45 entry" philosophy that some people have. It sounds like you were coming from the direction where the wind would have been from your right? In that case, I would have NOT overflown the field, but instead turned a bit to the right a few miles out and entered the pattern on a left crosswind. That gives you a good view of the field and all of the traffic, nobody in the pattern will ever be behind you, and you can easily adjust your pattern for traffic because you should be able to see all traffic in the pattern.

OTOH, as you found out, if you fly over the field and do a teardrop to the midfield 45 entry, you put all of the pattern traffic below and behind you where it's difficult or impossible to see until you're turning back inbound, at which point you have very little time to try and spot other traffic before turning downwind. Because of that, you didn't spot the other traffic and unknowingly cut him off. What if he had been a half mile further along in his pattern and hadn't seen you?

Also, overflying the field at TPA+500 - Often, faster (turboprop/jet) traffic is going to be 500 feet above the normal traffic pattern, so you may have flown right through where they'd be in their pattern - Yet another reason to avoid the flyover/teardrop/45 to downwind maneuver if you're coming from the non-pattern side of the field.

Hope this helps! It also wouldn't hurt to ask the examiner what his suggestions would be if he were in your situation so that you have a better idea what he might be looking for on the checkride.
 
That kind of thing happens all the time at non-towered airports.

Someone will show up shortly to remind us of the right-of-way rules, once they tire of 'can I log this' threads. ;)

When you do a 45 degree to downwind entry the most dangerous place is when you turn downwind, because you are belly up to anyone already on the downwind. If you learned that lesson then that's a big plus.

Don't beat yourself up.
 
It takes two to tango.
If he had been paying better attention during his check ride, he would have said to the DPE "I'm going to make room for this guy" or even contacted you to let you know his intentions.

I am guessing either he is a d!ck or didn't notice you.
 
It happens no one got hurt,a lesson learned. I prefer a crosswind entry to an overhead to downwind entry.
 
If he's so concerned about not getting cut off, or, for that matter, if he has any survival instincts - then why didn't he announce more? Over-announce, even. What's the harm? I transmit everything at uncontrolled's even when I know I'm alone. You never know. And if there's traffic in the pattern, I ask them where they are and I don't stop asking until I have them made.

I actually think mandatory ADS-B an traffic awareness can't come soon enough. Won't catch the no electrical system Cub's, but it will catch the rest.
 
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You could have just done a midfield entry at TPA, cross over, turn left to enter the downwind, that would put you in sequence. The 500+ then teardrop, with departing traffic in an unknow direction can cause problems.

Anyways, seriously do not let the pattern police and radio funtime police mess with your head. Have fun, be safe.
 
as long as accurate radio calls were being made BY BOTH, I can't see why anyone would have been close to anyone. not sure if you had a camera going, but you may want to review it if you did to see if you really made the right radio calls. not saying you didn't, and like you said he may not have been listening because he was on his checkride.
chalk it up to a learning experience!
 
No paint exchanged; no metal bent; no blood, bruises or broken bones. Keep that in mind re: the 'severity' of your perceived transgression.

Query: when someone says "abeam the numbers" in the traffic pattern, I understand that to be the numbers at the arrival end, not the departure end. If you were flying a standard 45 entry, you would enter the pattern between midfield and the approach end on the downwind leg. I'd be surprised that you could be .5 in front of him while he was "abeam the numbers".

Its entirely possible that no one did anything wrong and he'd still have to do a 360 for spacing.
 
I would imagine that check ride didn't go all that well either.

It doesn't matter so much if he had the right of way. He didn't have the situational awareness to know he was going to have a problem, and launched into it without any effort to coordinate.

Collision avoidance and single pilot resource management (which includes situational awareness) are both special emphasis areas. He may have been annoyed because the DPE dinged him.

What you've learned is that the teardrop can take a while. Betcha don't make that mistake again.

People keep complaining that 500 feet above TPA interferes with larger aircraft. Not if you do it correctly, which means 500 feet above the highest TPA.

Oakland has TPAs of 600 and 1000 feet, for two different runways. Does that mean I overfly the field at 1100? Tower usually wants 1500 or 2000.

Frankly, unless you were in a 152 putt putting at 55 on downwind, he should have been able to manage his aircraft to avoid a 360. Even if it means dropping flaps on downwind. This is a commercial pilot candidate, not a student pilot. Though extending the upwind would seem much more obvious, if he had a clue.
 
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Always two sides to every story. I'm betting that being a student, you were very cautious with your radio work, and also vigilant about looking for other traffic. I don't know how you can 'cut off' another plane on your entry to the pattern in standard form, with someone else who is already in the pattern, but clearly behind you. We don't know how he maneuvered when you turned down wind. You were both on the CTAF, so why didn't he ask, or advise relating to you directly? I'm going to guess from here on in.

He was just turned downwind, picking up speed, and getting to pattern altitude when you were turning downwind. This puts your plane belly to traffic from your left(left pattern). The onus is then on the traffic in the pattern to either yield, or speed up to get in front. I know what I would do in this case if I were in the pattern and saw traffic entering.

Snarky commentary on the CTAF is not productive. If I were the examiner and my examinee made a snarky comment on the CTAF, that might earn him a failure right there.

Next, it's ok to talk directly to traffic that may be a conflict when you make a radio call. Frex: "Podunk traffic. This is Cessna 123 on a 45. Blue and white Piper on take off, I lost you, say location and intentions." Or "Podunk traffic, Cessna 123 entering downwind, I have no visual of the white Piper after takeoff." If this sounds a lot like 'any traffic please advise' then too bad. The job is collision avoidance, and if you KNOW there is a potential for conflict it's up to you to manage that by speaking up. Coordinate, and at the same time try not to jam the radio, but jamming the radio is preferable to swapping paint, or getting someone failed on a checkride.

Now - as for the confrontation afterward, that can be good as a training tool or to make amends. But - it can and usually is bad when the accusations start. We don't know where he was on downwind when you entered, so we don't know how close it was. Obviously, you were ahead of him because he had to do a 360 for spacing. Well ya know what, too bad, stuff happens, other people are flying, and he doesn't own that airport. Get over it.
 
Don't worry bub, we've all been "that guy" at one time. As long as you did your best, or at least recognized ways to do it better next time, then that's all anyone can ask.
If that other pilot has an issue, give him a tissue. There's a reason that we all have to be diligent and look out for eachother. He was well aware of your intentions, and could see you better, so w/e.

I will say that it sucks that he was with your DPE... hehe now that's funny. Whatever you do though, do NOT "situation" interfere with your checkride ok! Seriously, you go have fun on that checkride, and forget all about that. You're fine.
 
RalphInCA said:
Hmmm. Doesn't this put you directly in the path of departing aircraft?
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Yes, where you can easily see and avoid it....versus flying away from the airport and not seeing anything...
 
RalphInCA said:
Hmmm. Doesn't this put you directly in the path of departing aircraft?
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Maybe, but it depends how far out of a crosswind you fly, how fast they're climbing, etc.

However, most importantly, even if it does put you in their path, it also allows you to look for them and see them the entire time so that if there is departing traffic you can adjust as necessary. The teardrop-45 entry gives you an awful lot of blind spots and times.
 
+1 on talking to the other pilots. Just announcing intentions does not guarantee that others understand and will coordinate. I often address an aircraft/pilot directly and engage them in a brief exchange which makes me feel safer since they will hopefully adhere to what we just agreed on.
 
I still recall a hilarious conversation going into Alexander field CO one time way back. I was coming in from the SW, and announced position and entering left traffic for 24. A second later, a Metroliner I think from COS announced that he too was coming in from the south, and was entering left traffic. Of course, that quickly got both our attention. He said something like: "Where are you?" and I replied with my location 'downwind, midfield TPA' as best I could, and I said "where are you" He said "SAME LOCATION!" Everyone on the plane was searching above, around, left, right, down, rocking wings, turn on every light I had, and just then I looked across the field and there he was; on a RIGHT downwind for the runway. I let him go first. :lol:
 
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MAKG1 said:
I would imagine that check ride didn't go all that well either.

It doesn't matter so much if he had the right of way...
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That brings up a question: In a left hand pattern, does the traffic on the 45 have the right of way because he is to the right of the traffic on the downwind, or does traffic already in the pattern have the right of way?
 
Palmpilot said:
That brings up a question: In a left hand pattern, does the traffic on the 45 have the right of way because he is to the right of the traffic on the downwind, or does traffic already in the pattern have the right of way?
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91.113 has conditions for aircraft on final, not in the pattern. If they were at the same altitude and converging, the aircraft on the right has right of way.

But it really doesn't matter who had the right of way, as there never should have been a conflict. The aircraft on the ground should not have launched without being aware of what was going on overhead.
 
dmspilot said:
Yes, where you can easily see and avoid it....versus flying away from the airport and not seeing anything...
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That's the thing that bothers me most about the teardrop-45 type of entry. I was taught that way, but I have found that it can make it difficult to find the field again after turning inbound on the 45. For that reason, I've started to like the crosswind entry when approaching from the side opposite the downwind. While that does leave open the possibility for conflict with traffic on departure, there is no pattern entry that doesn't have the possibility of conflicting with other traffic.
 
Unregistered said:
Hi all. Just trying to wrap my mind around a situation I encountered last week that just keeps bothering me. I'm still a student waiting for my checkride. Last week I decided to take a short 30 min cross country flight to meet my soon to be examiner, basically just to do something different. I announced at 8 miles that I was inbound and listened for any traffic in the area and to determine if any specific runway was being used (uncontrolled by the way). Based on radio calls, one plane was in the pattern. I am very good at visualization and can create a quick mental map of where everybody should be based on radio calls. At about 5 miles, I announced that I would cross mid field at TPA +500 and circle back to 45 degree left pattern entry on the runway being used by the other traffic. I announced my intentions again at 2 miles. The other traffic was taxiing back to the runway and about 500 feet from the hold short line. As I approached mid field, I confirmed the wind sock and runway, announced my intentions again and saw the plane approaching the hold short line. As I passed mid field, I heard the other traffic announce takeoff intentions, but do not remember if he announced staying in pattern. As I turned back towards the airport and began the 45 degree entry, I announced my intentions again.

This is where the mistake was that I know I made. My "great" visualization skills made me complacent assuming he was still climbing out and I focused my traffic scan for planes that I might run into in the pattern. I know, there could have been other no radio planes in traffic, I admit that it was a huge mistake on my part not to take a better look further upwind. I was just about to announce my turn to base, I heard a snarky announcement come over the radio from the other plane that he was abeam the numbers and he was annoyed to turn a 360. I felt the sinking feeling in my stomach about someone being so close. I shrugged it off and focused on finishing the flight and didn't think much else about it until I was preparing the plane to return to my home airport. The other pilot came over and confronted me, not angrily, but he made a point of letting me know that I cut him off in the pattern and he made the comment abeam the numbers to basically tell me that I messed up. To make it worse, he had been on his commercial checkride with the examiner I was there to meet. He also made a point that the examiner commented that I would have failed a checkride because of cutting him off. This of course ruined the rest of my "fun" flying day.

From what happened, I assume I was beginning the 45 degree entry as he was on crosswind. As I turned to downwind, he must have been on downwind already about .5 miles behind me. I realize my mistake that I should have looked more upwind. However, the more I think about his comments, the more it bothers me. Did I cut him off, or was he trying to cut me off?

Maybe this story will give other students something to think about.
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We all have room to improve, and I'm learning from your experience, thanks for posting.

Cheers
 
Relax, sounds like you did fine, I personally do not teach flying over the pattern and tear dropping back in. Instead I teach to just fly a midfield crosswind then turn downwind. Much easier to keep your eyes looking for planes that way.

You will always run into pattern cops that freak out because another airplane didn't do what they want instead of adjusting to the dynamic situation that is aviating. My method for handling pattern cops is to absolutely ignore them. If they complain on the radio I don't respond and if they approach me in person I walk away. Although, if they try to play FAR cop sometimes I can't help myself and engage to beat them at their own game :)
 
jesse said:
Relax, sounds like you did fine, I personally do not teach flying over the pattern and tear dropping back in. Instead I teach to just fly a midfield crosswind then turn downwind. Much easier to keep your eyes looking for planes that way.
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Same here. You get a good view of the field approaching and going over, enough to visualize departing traffic and see where they are. If the other guy was a commercial student he should get the ding. He could have resolved the situation with some communication.
 
steingar said:
Same here. You get a good view of the field approaching and going over, enough to visualize departing traffic and see where they are. If the other guy was a commercial student he should get the ding. He could have resolved the situation with some communication.
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+2

:thumbsup:
 
Only thing you could've done better was maintain better SA on where he was (which you already mentioned in your post).

Agreed with the other posters, the other pilot could've done his part, too.

Many is the time I've adjusted my pattern entry to fit in with the flow of traffic.

If you do maneuver for the 45, make sure you fly outbound such that once you're inbound, you truly have a view of the whole pattern in front of you. If you do maneuvering too close to the lateral bounds of the traffic pattern, you're not going to be able to see much once you're inbound.

I've become a fan of xwind entries when it's convenient. Yes, it crosses the departure leg for departing traffic, but departing traffic is easily spotted, and it's a WHOLE lot less maneuvering than the 45.

On a recent flight, I entered on the crosswind with another pilot on the upwind leg. I had him in sight when I was still 2nm away from the field. The key was TWO WAY communication. He kindly offered to widen his crosswind so I could cut early onto the downwind to get ahead of him. It was the most efficient solution since our speeds weren't going to be compatible without us both working at it (172 and Lancair).
 
OP here:

Thanks for the comments. Always a learning experience for me. I usually fly from a quiet airport and therefore mostly do the midfield to downwind turn into pattern. In this case, it was an unfamiliar airport and the moderate winds were shifting in different directions by about 20-30 degrees. I chose this time to overfly and take a look at the situation before committing directly into the downwind. I was considering using the alternate runway but wanted to look at the wind sock and any ground traffic.
 
Wasn't he announcing his pattern?, or he was and you didn't hear him?
At the very least he should have announced his crosswind turn, and then his downwind turn. If he didn't I can see the DPE failing him on the spot.
 
I think the OP didn't care for the guy getting in his grill on the ramp. I wouldn't care for it either. We all improve, some faster than others.
 
I wouldn't worry about it too much. I would file it under lessons learned, not everyone plays by the rules just because you do.

Even if I have the right of way I will extend my pattern/360's/etc. to accommodate other traffic. I assume they cant see me or wont yield unless we have good communication going.

Its bad enough having to deal with pattern bullies. Being confront is really not cool. I would have told him shove off. Bullies don't like it when some one doesn't let them push them around. I wouldn't hesitate to ask the DPE about the incident. Especially if you are about to take a check ride with him. If he feels that you are in the wrong, then he will appreciate your desire to learn and improve. He may agree with you and yall can make fun of the pattern bully together.

Sadly, there are alot of pattern bullies out there. Whether you are right or wrong they still want to bark at you. Don't let them ruin your day.

Good luck on your upcoming check ride.
 
jesse said:
Relax, sounds like you did fine, I personally do not teach flying over the pattern and tear dropping back in. Instead I teach to just fly a midfield crosswind then turn downwind. Much easier to keep your eyes looking for planes that way.
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+1

That's the way I was taught.
 
jesse said:
...I teach to just fly a midfield crosswind then turn downwind. ...

My method for handling pattern cops is to absolutely ignore them. ...if they try to play FAR cop sometimes I can't help myself and engage to beat them at their own game :)
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En garde! You are teaching your students to violate FAR 137.45! See P/C Glossary for definition of crosswind leg under TRAFFIC PATTERN:
b. Crosswind Leg− A flight path at right angles to the landing runway off its upwind end.​

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
En garde! You are teaching your students to violate FAR 137.45! See P/C Glossary for definition of crosswind leg under TRAFFIC PATTERN:
b. Crosswind Leg− A flight path at right angles to the landing runway off its upwind end.​

dtuuri
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Can you say....reach???

Yes the P/C Glossary has a definition for crosswind. That means absolutely nothing. Hence why it's described as a midfield crosswind. A midfield crosswind obviously states what is being done and is a different term.

Nothing in FAR 137.45 makes it illegal to enter on a midfield crosswind. The only regulatory requirement is 91.126 (b) 1 which simply states that you must make the turns in the pattern in the correct direction.
 
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jesse said:
Although, if they try to play FAR cop sometimes I can't help myself and engage to beat them at their own game :)
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dtuuri said:
En garde! You are teaching your students to violate FAR 137.45! See P/C Glossary for definition of crosswind leg under TRAFFIC PATTERN:
b. Crosswind Leg− A flight path at right angles to the landing runway off its upwind end.​
dtuuri
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jesse said:
Nothing in FAR 137.45 makes it illegal to enter on a midfield crosswind. The only regulatory requirement is 91.126 (b) 1 which simply states that you must make the turns in the pattern in the correct direction.
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lol.:rofl:
 
jesse said:
Yes the P/C Glossary has a definition for crosswind. That means absolutely nothing.
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Nothing? :rolleyes:

jesse said:
Hence why it's described as a midfield crosswind. A midfield crosswind obviously states what is being done and is a different term.
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Original term you mean. You hafta make up your own terms when you make up your own pattern, don't ya.

jesse said:
Nothing in FAR 137.45 makes it illegal to enter on a midfield crosswind.
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That's not a place nor a term in the official aviation lexicon. FAR 137.45 is an exception to the "traffic pattern" (notwithstanding) in Part 91. The exception proves the rule: traffic patterns exist and the P/CG defines it and the AIM diagrams it.

jesse said:
The only regulatory requirement is 91.126 (b) 1 which simply states that you must make the turns in the pattern in the correct direction.
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Nope again. In the "vicinity" of the airport while "approaching to land" "at an airport", all turns to the left. Crossing directly overhead circumscribes half the airport--the rule doesn't say "at your favorite spot of an airport". It should be common sense anyway, since bisecting the runway puts you head-on with other planes exercising the same mistaken idea from the opposite side, especially if the wind is calm. "Vicinity" everywhere I've been able to find it defined with respect to airports is a five mile radius, NTSB accident statistics and State of California definitions, IIRC. That makes sense too because it allows a gentle merge of traffic into the flow around (not head to head across) the airport. The tangled mess of the ampersand-looking teardrop entry mentioned above seems to be just what the originators of the rule tried to prevent.

EDIT: More info in meaning of "vicinity" in FAR 170.3:
Airport traffic control tower means a terminal facility, which through the use of air/ground communications, visual signaling, and other devices, provides ATC services to airborne aircraft operating in the vicinity of an airport and to aircraft operating on the airport area.​

dtuuri
 
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We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You obviously interpret written word and regulation in a far different manner than myself. Maybe you'll get lucky and Mr. Levy will post back and forth with you for another 10 pages :)
 
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jesse said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You obviously interpret written word and regulation in a far different manner than myself. Maybe you'll get lucky and Mr. Levy will post back and forth with you for another 10 pages :)
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Until we meet again, my friend! Another foil awaits me! :)

Zorro
 
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Palmpilot said:
That regulation only applies to agricultural operations. See §137.1 Applicability.
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A-ha! You argue the applicability, not the legality. You must then concede the legality of the exception to the rule which proves the rule exists: Traffic patterns do exist and must be flown unless covered under the exception. The legs are defined and diagrammed by the AIM/P&CG --a midfield crosswind does not even exist! Adios, my friend! I leave you with my sign:

Z
:)
 
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