Waco spins/aerobatics

[ebetancourt]

In an older thread someone asked me to report back, the subject was whether on not the Waco would lose ~1,500 feet in the first turn of a spin.

I have been getting to know the Waco, and now with 70 hours or so in it, a freshly repacked chute and gorgeous weather I finally got around to it. Some caveats: It has been a long time since I did a lot of spins, and I didn't have a lot of time (story of my life lately), so I don't have a lot to compare to, and I only did a couple of spins, both to the right.

Answer: I think it would. I lost a little over 1,000 ft both times, but I was recovering before a complete turn, attempting to roll out on my entry heading. I also believe the book when it says that after three turns the spin will decay into a high speed spiral.

Initial entry is like everything else the Waco does, graceful and smile inducing. After about 30* or so, it says, "oh you want to spin?" and the nose goes down almost straight. The turns are not as fast as some airplanes, and they feel almost like an aileron role pointed straight down.

Just for clarification, I used two hands (really to make sure I had the stick centered) and the stick was full back with full right rudder.

With the fixed pitch prop, gaining airspeed for aerobatic maneuvers is a challenge. Using the throttle to keep RPM 100 below redline, it took 1,000 feet to gain 150mph for a loop on a 60* downline. Level off for an instant, pull, add full throttle and enjoy. Actually hit my wake as I was leveling off on the second loop I did.:wink2:

The more I fly this airplane the more I love it.

Ernie

 

[Arbiter419]

 

[ebetancourt]

I haven't figured out which hand to hold the camera with

I am trying to figure out how to mount a video camera that looks where I look.

Ernie

 

[Hiperbiper]

I haven't figured out which hand to hold the camera with

I am trying to figure out how to mount a video camera that looks where I look.

Ernie

Ernie;
You live in Tennesse.
Please don't tell me no one has skooled you in the use of duck tape...


Chris in Shreveport

 

[Diana]

Sounds like you had fun!

I haven't figured out which hand to hold the camera with

I am trying to figure out how to mount a video camera that looks where I look.

I just take my husband along and he holds the camera. He has nerves of steel.

 

[ebetancourt]

Sounds like you had fun!


I just take my husband along and he holds the camera. He has nerves of steel.

Except for paying for fuel, everything I've done in this airplane has been fun

My wife is a reluctant flyer. 1.5Gs would get me killed, as would 31* banks. On the other hand, she rode to FL and back with me last week.

Ernie

 

[AdamZ]

Sounds like you had fun!


I just take my husband along and he holds the camera. He has nerves of steel.

No hard when your doing the spins Diana:wink2:

 

[whifferdill]

Cool, sounds like you're almost ready to fly Primary.

I also believe the book when it says that after three turns the spin will decay into a high speed spiral.

Which "book" is this? Still curious about it. I've heard of airplanes that have a tendency to fly out of spins on their own after a bit, but not sure how the airspeed could change much with the stick held fully aft. Why not give it a try, nothing scary should happen if you are already comfortable with spins in it.

Also, the plane will probably spin less nose-down to the left than to the right if you're interested in comparing that.

Eric

 

[ebetancourt]

Cool, sounds like you're almost ready to fly Primary.

Looonnnng way to go.

Which "book" is this? Still curious about it. I've heard of airplanes that have a tendency to fly out of spins on their own after a bit, but not sure how the airspeed could change much with the stick held fully aft. Why not give it a try, nothing scary should happen if you are already comfortable with spins in it.

Also, the plane will probably spin less nose-down to the left than to the right if you're interested in comparing that.

Eric

POH

I will explore it all as time become available. Three turns - roughly 3000 ft. Takes roughly 10 minutes to get to 5500 or so, then 6 minutes to climb back up. Only so much time in a day and so much fun to be had. Then there is work...

 

[Diana]

Except for paying for fuel, everything I've done in this airplane has been fun

Can I have a ride?

No hard when your doing the spins Diana:wink2:

 

[Diana]

Just for clarification, I used two hands (really to make sure I had the stick centered) and the stick was full back with full right rudder.

One time, just for fun, we made a video of what spins looked like, looking out at the wing tip (I wasn't looking out there...just the camera). Imagine my surprise as I watched the video later when I discovered that my stick wasn't centered in ANY of the spins like I thought it was. It was quite a revelation.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

One time, just for fun, we made a video of what spins looked like, looking out at the wing tip (I wasn't looking out there...just the camera). Imagine my surprise as I watched the video later when I discovered that my stick wasn't centered in ANY of the spins like I thought it was. It was quite a revelation.

Apparently, that is not unusual.

 

[nddons]

In an older thread someone asked me to report back, the subject was whether on not the Waco would lose ~1,500 feet in the first turn of a spin.

I have been getting to know the Waco, and now with 70 hours or so in it, a freshly repacked chute and gorgeous weather I finally got around to it. Some caveats: It has been a long time since I did a lot of spins, and I didn't have a lot of time (story of my life lately), so I don't have a lot to compare to, and I only did a couple of spins, both to the right.

Answer: I think it would. I lost a little over 1,000 ft both times, but I was recovering before a complete turn, attempting to roll out on my entry heading. I also believe the book when it says that after three turns the spin will decay into a high speed spiral.

Initial entry is like everything else the Waco does, graceful and smile inducing. After about 30* or so, it says, "oh you want to spin?" and the nose goes down almost straight. The turns are not as fast as some airplanes, and they feel almost like an aileron role pointed straight down.

Just for clarification, I used two hands (really to make sure I had the stick centered) and the stick was full back with full right rudder.

With the fixed pitch prop, gaining airspeed for aerobatic maneuvers is a challenge. Using the throttle to keep RPM 100 below redline, it took 1,000 feet to gain 150mph for a loop on a 60* downline. Level off for an instant, pull, add full throttle and enjoy. Actually hit my wake as I was leveling off on the second loop I did.:wink2:

The more I fly this airplane the more I love it.

Ernie

Congratulations on flying one of the most beautiful production airplanes currently made. I love seeing them at AirVenture.

 

[PittsDriver]

One time, just for fun, we made a video of what spins looked like, looking out at the wing tip (I wasn't looking out there...just the camera). Imagine my surprise as I watched the video later when I discovered that my stick wasn't centered in ANY of the spins like I thought it was. It was quite a revelation.

And that's when you were intentionally spinning. When placed in a upset situation it's not hard to imagine having some controls unconsciously deflected when the pilot is really behind on the action. That's one of the reasons why I like the upset recovery procedure that I was taught over PARE or others because it asks you to look inside the airplane at the position of the controls and places less emphasis on what's going on outside until a point where things are less blurry and I'm less stupid.

I'm in line behind Diana for a ride... I've always wanted to fly one of these. Is yours of modern manufacture or an antique?

 

[Jeanie]

I'm in line behind PittsDriver! I'll bring my parachute and wait patiently for my turn. Sure wish Tennessee was closer to W. Tx.!
Anyway, I'm glad you're having fun with it- How marvelous to fly such an aircraft.

Pictures Pictures Pictures requested.....

 

[gismo]

Cool, sounds like you're almost ready to fly Primary.



Which "book" is this? Still curious about it. I've heard of airplanes that have a tendency to fly out of spins on their own after a bit, but not sure how the airspeed could change much with the stick held fully aft. Why not give it a try, nothing scary should happen if you are already comfortable with spins in it.

Also, the plane will probably spin less nose-down to the left than to the right if you're interested in comparing that.

Eric

My taildragger (CP-65) is very reluctant to remain in a spin when the rear seat isn't occupied. If I hold full right aileron and leave the power on it will stay in a spin to the left but remove either of those extras and you're in a spiral within half a turn. With me alone in the front it's pretty close to the forward CG limit.

 

[ebetancourt]

Diana, (and others),

Actually giving rides is a lot of fun, too. Anytime you are near middle TN let me know. The most common comment: "It's a lot quieter than I thought it would be." The only negative is that the front cockpit gets pretty warm in the summer. There are a few "fixes" to improve that, and I plan to lay it up in mid Nov to do those. I had thought to try to make Gaston's but it didn't work out. Maybe next year.

The controls are fairly balanced, the roll rate is much faster than a Citabria and the pitch is not as sensitive (as a Citabria). One of the things that I finally figured out makes it such a pleasure to fly is the fact that you are well behind the CG and you are mostly seeing the whole airplane. It makes me smile a lot. Most everything else I have ever flown was mostly behind me, and in at least one airplane, there was no easy way to even see the wings.

I am not sure I would ever do acro with someone in the front cockpit because frankly, I am not sure you could get out with a parachute. Maybe a seat pack. Although they used them a lot for wing walking so it must be possible.

This is a '99 YMF-5C. It was very low time when I picked it up in March (218TT) but I am trying to fix that

Ernie

 

[whifferdill]

My taildragger (CP-65) is very reluctant to remain in a spin when the rear seat isn't occupied. If I hold full right aileron and leave the power on it will stay in a spin to the left but remove either of those extras and you're in a spiral within half a turn. With me alone in the front it's pretty close to the forward CG limit.

Sure, I've known planes to fly out of spins, but does your ASI needle start heading toward uncomfortably large numbers? I was just doubtful about finding oneself in a "high speed" (as in airspeed) spiral with the stick held fully aft.

 

[gismo]

Sure, I've known planes to fly out of spins, but does your ASI needle start heading toward uncomfortably large numbers? I was just doubtful about finding oneself in a "high speed" (as in airspeed) spiral with the stick held fully aft.

Not initially but I believe that if you continue to hold full aft stick the airplane will indeed accelerate to the point where the g load might become excessive (+5G in my case). IOW because of the fairly steep bank and the initial nose down attitude, airspeed (and g force) builds rapidly as the "up" elevator is mostly tightening the turn and doing little to raise the nose. That said, I doubt I've ever held full aft stick for very long once the g force starts to build because the nose is pointed so low that I might not be able to recover without exceeding Vne.

 

[Ken Ibold]

There was a brand new one at Wings n Wheels here in Jax a few weeks ago. 2010 model with something like 20 hours on it. The paint job must have been customized for a buyer because it was ... uh ... an eclectic combination of colors. But I'da taken a ride in it!

Glass panel in the back and a 496 in the front.

 

[ebetancourt]

Sure, I've known planes to fly out of spins, but does your ASI needle start heading toward uncomfortably large numbers? I was just doubtful about finding oneself in a "high speed" (as in airspeed) spiral with the stick held fully aft.

The "good" news about a YMF-5C is that you probably reach terminal velocity before VNE.:wink2: Vne is over 200MPH and I don't think you could get there without power.

 

[AcroBoy]

Are you sure the rate of descent is faster with the stick held full aft? Seems like accelerating the spin with forward stick and in spin aileron would cause a greater rate of descent than full back stick. Also, 1000 feet lost in a one turn spin seems like a lot for a Waco. Didn't read all of the thread, but you may want to go over this with an aerobatic instructor if you haven't already. Still a lot of fun.

 

[ebetancourt]

Are you sure the rate of descent is faster with the stick held full aft? Seems like accelerating the spin with forward stick and in spin aileron would cause a greater rate of descent than full back stick. Also, 1000 feet lost in a one turn spin seems like a lot for a Waco. Didn't read all of the thread, but you may want to go over this with an aerobatic instructor if you haven't already. Still a lot of fun.

ummh? I don't think I said that.

I did say that the airplane would likely lose what the POH says is it would in the first turn of a spin (actually I said 1,500 but the POH says 1,700). Not trying to accomplish anything other than getting to know the airplane and trying to see what a one-turn spin rolling out on the entry heading looks like. I would also guess that the altitude loss would vary somewhat with GW and individual aircraft rigging, and that the POH is worst case.