WAAS upgrades delayed until late 2006: GNS430/530

[Gary Sortor]

Garmin has announced delays in upgrading GNS430/530 series for WAAS until 3rd qtr of 2006. Current owners who want to purchase the WAAS upgrade at the $1,500 price must place an order before November 15. No price has yet been set for upgrading new purchases of Garmin equipment.
[Edit to conform to my subsequent post on this thread] Upgrade price must be locked-in before Nov 15 by registering upgrade with Garmin avionics dealer.

 

[drhunt]

Is that Nov 15th of this year for a product that won't be available until Q306, possibly (probably) later? Sucks. Garmin seems to be notoriously late with product updates...weather, WAAS, terrain for starters.

 

[bbchien]

And you expected.....??

 

[Henning]

Garmin has announced delays in upgrading GNS430/530 series for WAAS until 3rd qtr of 2006. Current owners who want to purchase the WAAS upgrade at the $1,500 price must place an order before November 15. No price has yet been set for upgrading new purchases of Garmin equipment.

I'm having trouble with this. You're telling me that the WAAS upgrade alone is going to be $1500 when I can buy a complete WAAS enabled GPS for less than $200? Something not right.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I'm having trouble with this. You're telling me that the WAAS upgrade alone is going to be $1500 when I can buy a complete WAAS enabled GPS for less than $200? Something not right.

For $200 your GPS will be certified to do exactly...nothing. Not that handhelds aren't great (they are!), but my read, from info on another board, is that the $1,500 will basically get you replacement of much of the guts of your GNS430/530. You get certified IFR GPS VNAV (IFR GPS "glideslope").

Jeff

 

[Anthony]

I expect Trimble's and Terra's WAAS units to be out before Garmin's.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I expect Trimble's and Terra's WAAS units to be out before Garmin's.

Garmin does have a WAAS-certified unit, the GNS-480.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just as a paper exercise, add up the installed cost of a 530 plus the WAAS upgrade (factor in the downtime while you send the unit back to the factory for a few weeks for the rework plus the 18 months or more of non-WAAS ops from now until the upgrade is available) and then compare it to the installed cost of a 480 plus MX20, figuring in the dramatically increased capabilities and immediate WAAS-ready availability of the latter package.

Guess which way I'm going.

 

[Maverick]

I expect Trimble's and Terra's WAAS units to be out before Garmin's.

Trimble has been out of the avionics business for some time now. Other than military. Support for the Trimble avionics products still in use has been transfered to a different company, Free Flight Systems of Waco Texas.

Jeannie

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Just as a paper exercise, add up the installed cost of a 530 plus the WAAS upgrade (factor in the downtime while you send the unit back to the factory for a few weeks for the rework plus the 18 months or more of non-WAAS ops from now until the upgrade is available) and then compare it to the installed cost of a 480 plus MX20, figuring in the dramatically increased capabilities and immediate WAAS-ready availability of the latter package.

Guess which way I'm going.

I'll take it one step further--guess which way Garmin is going... The future press release may well read, "We did not receive enough interest in the WAAS upgrade package, and therefor we have determined that the market for the WAAS GNS430/530 did not justify development at this time."

 

[Henning]

For $200 your GPS will be certified to do exactly...nothing. Not that handhelds aren't great (they are!), but my read, from info on another board, is that the $1,500 will basically get you replacement of much of the guts of your GNS430/530. You get certified IFR GPS VNAV (IFR GPS "glideslope").

Jeff

Besides the point, You have already paid a premium price for the unit once, they should give you the upgrade at cost +15% which if they replace the whole bloody unit, display and all, would be <$1000. The avionics game is a racket.

 

[Maverick]

I'll take it one step further--guess which way Garmin is going... The future press release may well read, "We did not receive enough interest in the WAAS upgrade package, and therefor we have determined that the market for the WAAS GNS430/530 did not justify development at this time."

That is exactly why I haven't made any moves to purchase an IFR certified GPS. No matter what they say about upgradability now, it may not be upgradable in the long run. No more vapor ware for me. I'll believe it when I see it.

Jeannie

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I'll take it one step further--guess which way Garmin is going... The future press release may well read, "We did not receive enough interest in the WAAS upgrade package, and therefor we have determined that the market for the WAAS GNS430/530 did not justify development at this time."

Again, from comments on another board, it appears the problem is the opposite - that they have gotten too many orders at the $1,500 price, and they needed to cut that off so they could charge more for the upgrade on future units. Other than the delays (which are almost inevitable in anything aviation-related), I don't see anything dishonest about what Garmin is doing. Folks who bought the 430/530 knew it wasn't WAAS certified at the time, and knew it would cost them money for the upgrade. This is a free market, Garmin can charge what the market will bear, and they're doing quite well for themselves.

Now, if they delay this too long, they might well loose some of the $1,500 upgrade orders, but I doubt that will be all that significant, since there aren't that many operators that truly "need" to have the VNAV approach capability. The ones that much in need will buy a unit already WAAS-certified.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Oslick]

That is exactly why I haven't made any moves to purchase an IFR certified GPS. No matter what they say about upgradability now, it may not be upgradable in the long run. No more vapor ware for me. I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm not too concerned about support for the older units. I've got an old Northstar M3 Approach GPS - one of, if not the (can't remember) first approach-approved units. No moving map, but it works well and does the job. I'll be buying a handheld for the moving map and backup soon. Jepp still provides updates for the unit via online-downloads, still provides data cards (PCMCIA), and it probably costs Jepp very little to continue database support for the older units. Yes, if the unit breaks, I've got to send it to Canada for repair, but, on the other hand, I can pick up a used one on e-bay for a grand, slide it in, and I'm back in business.

I'm not in a position that I see myself needing WAAS-approach capability anytime soon. I'm just not that comfortable flying over terrain that obscured in a single (After leaving the cloud on an engine out, I'd like few seconds to decide what I want to hit). I don't have all that much IMC time, but I wonder if I'll ever be comfortable routinely flying (a single) in conditions much below 600 and a mile, even higher if there is high terrain around.

Jeff

 

[Iceman]

And you expected.....??

So true!

Garmin is know for making empty promises...however they are acting as any profitable company should. Provide a large customer base with very capable units and then give them the option to make their boxes better. I think the reason they are making the november 15th cap is the upgrade is costing them more than they thought it would. My guess is they will have to work very hard to upgrade every unit that comes in the door. If they have to replace most of the internals for 1500 I'm sure they are not making much. The case, controls, and the screen probably cost them less than 1000 so they are basically providing an almost new unit for ~2500 instead of 10,000. Where is the profit in that?

I have played with a 480 for about an hour and used the simulator for ~5 hours. IMO the unit is hard to use and is most suitable for the hardcore IFR'er. We just did a big upgrade to the panel with a mx20, gdl 69, and a 4300 lifesaver. We could have easily used the 480 but decided against it. The 480 unit is not very profitable for garmin (takes them longer to produce). I would not be surprised if they steal (i guess it's not stealing if they own it) the technology off it and retire the unit in a few years.

 

[wsuffa]

Although if BK or somebody else came out with a certified WAAS unit earlier, I'd bet that Garmin would move a lot faster....

Competition is a very good thing, in more ways than one.

 

[drhunt]

SNIP Folks who bought the 430/530 knew it wasn't WAAS certified at the time, and knew it would cost them money for the upgrade. SNIP
Jeff

IIRC, Garmin advertised the 530/430s as "WAAS upgradeable" as early as 2000, possibly even earlier. It was my impression as a customer that the only thing holding them up was lack of a standard and when that was established it would be a relatively easy upgrade of the box. To now be in mid-year 2005, and told it will be another 5 quarters (who knows how long for real) is the big disappointment. If their fault isn't in appropriately managing customer expectations then it is in greatly underestimating the software/hardware engineering complexities...pretty dissapointing either way. Great boxes, but you'd better by them for the features they have today...not tomorrow.

 

[Henning]

Trimble has been out of the avionics business for some time now. Other than military. Support for the Trimble avionics products still in use has been transfered to a different company, Free Flight Systems of Waco Texas.

Jeannie

It's a shame too. I've been using survey grade Trimble hardware linked to either WinFrog or CMS software in the offshore oilfields for years, really accurate and reliable stuff. I don't know if it used the Y code side of the satellite or what, but they provided sub meter accuracy way back when.

 

[Big Bird]

And you expected.....??

Well, I expected, this! That's why my local avionics shop does not have $30K of my money for a panel upgrade. Garmin has to do better.

 

[Big Bird]

That is exactly why I haven't made any moves to purchase an IFR certified GPS. No matter what they say about upgradability now, it may not be upgradable in the long run. No more vapor ware for me. I'll believe it when I see it.

Jeannie

Want to buy my KLN 94? No upgrades necessary;-)

 

[Iceman]

Well, I expected, this! That's why my local avionics shop does not have $30K of my money for a panel upgrade. Garmin has to do better.

Honestly Garmin is not worried about the 430/530 right now. I think most of their resources are being spent on the 1000 and making sure all the bugs get worked out on it. Most of the bugs have been worked out of the 5(4)30 so they can place them on the back burner right now. I think some people are going to be mad because they will not display most of the gdl69 features until the upgrade occurs.

The real question now is what is going to be the best strategy for changing out the garmin. Chances are they are going to have a trade program so no one has to wait while the unit is being upgraded. I'm not so sure I want a model with 2000 hours being traded with mine (worn buttons etc). If we are first in line they might send some new units out to begin the trade program (they did this when the 530's were first released and had problems). More likely I think we will wait a little over a year and give them time to work the bugs out and they decrease the backlog/downtime.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

If I was installing new equipment, I'd go Ron's direction: MX-20 and 480. I was on that track with the A-36 if I had upgraded the panel; however, the P Baron has a 530/430. It's not worth pulling them out and putting in the MX-20 and 480; so, I'll probably look at the upgrade once it's more available. For now, the 530/430 with 330 for traffic; stormscope on the 530 and weather is pretty slick.

Chris is right about the MX-20 and 480 being more for the hard IFRer. The guys I know that are airline pilots and used to flight director systems love that combination. It's be my first choice if installing new equipment.

Best,

Dave
Baron N322KS

 

[Anthony]

Trimble has been out of the avionics business for some time now. Other than military. Support for the Trimble avionics products still in use has been transfered to a different company, Free Flight Systems of Waco Texas.

Jeannie

I guess no one gets my sense of humor. That was my point. Unfortunately, I am all to familiar with Terra products as I have them in my Tiger.

 

[Maverick]

I guess no one gets my sense of humor. That was my point. Unfortunately, I am all to familiar with Terra products as I have them in my Tiger.

Yeah, I guess I missed that one. Now I get it though.

Jeannie

 

[Maverick]

Want to buy my KLN 94? No upgrades necessary;-)

I didn't think the KLN 94 was WAAS capable. I looked on the King website and it doesn't say anything about WAAS.

Jeannie

 

[poadeleted20]

I didn't think the KLN 94 was WAAS capable. I looked on the King website and it doesn't say anything about WAAS.

I have one in my for-sale Cougar; it is not WAAS-capable, and BK is not advertising a WAAS upgrade. But if you don't need WAAS, it is, when combined with an existing nav/comm and a KMD-150 MFD, a very good, much lower cost alternative to a 480/20 combo.

 

[Gary Sortor]

For those who already have a GNS 430/530, take note that the cost of $1,500 will likely be higher after Nov 15. According to an email I received from Garmin, " . . . have your Garmin avionics dealer register your unit for the upgrade . . . " before Nov 15 to guarantee the $1,500 price.

 

[Henning]

Just as a paper exercise, add up the installed cost of a 530 plus the WAAS upgrade (factor in the downtime while you send the unit back to the factory for a few weeks for the rework plus the 18 months or more of non-WAAS ops from now until the upgrade is available) and then compare it to the installed cost of a 480 plus MX20, figuring in the dramatically increased capabilities and immediate WAAS-ready availability of the latter package.

Guess which way I'm going.

I haven't been in the market, so I'm not thouroghly up to date, but it's my understanding that the 480 is GPS/COM only, is that correct? Although I guess you just use a different nav/com for #2 and switch it on an HSI with the GPS or use a seperate CDI/GS. So Ron, what's the best deal you've found on the 480 w/ MX-20?

 

[Iceman]

I haven't been in the market, so I'm not thouroghly up to date, but it's my understanding that the 480 is GPS/COM only, is that correct? Although I guess you just use a different nav/com for #2 and switch it on an HSI with the GPS or use a seperate CDI/GS. So Ron, what's the best deal you've found on the 480 w/ MX-20?

Here is a good link on info for the 480 (link) and it is a gps/nav/com.

Best deal I've found on a 480 is $9237 and mx20 is $6066. This does not include install. The best way to do a project like this is take these prices to your shop and see what there best install price is. The place we went to in michigan beat the above prices by a good margin .

 

[Henning]

Here is a good link on info for the 480 (link) and it is a gps/nav/com.

Best deal I've found on a 480 is $9237 and mx20 is $6066. This does not include install. The best way to do a project like this is take these prices to your shop and see what there best install price is. The place we went to in michigan beat the above prices by a good margin .

Sorry, I just don't need the crap that much. With what you're telling me there' by the time I've got it installed and certified, we're talking >$20k. I can buy a whole airplane that can make me money for less.

 

[poadeleted20]

I haven't been in the market, so I'm not thouroghly up to date, but it's my understanding that the 480 is GPS/COM only, is that correct?

As Chris said, no, it's a full GPS/Comm/VOR/ILS/3LMB.

Although I guess you just use a different nav/com for #2 and switch it on an HSI with the GPS or use a seperate CDI/GS.

I'll be getting an HSI for the 480 to feed, but also a second CDI for the #2 nav (a Garmin SL30 nav/comm for backup nav and comm).

So Ron, what's the best deal you've found on the 480 w/ MX-20?

Quotes are still coming in, but it's around $20K installed. Yeah, I know, lotta bucks, but when you want it, you want it -- I plan for this to be my last airplane.

 

[gismo]

As Chris said, no, it's a full GPS/Comm/VOR/ILS/3LMB.

3LMB? I don't think so. It does all the rest though, and it even talks to the pilot!

WRT the 430/530 upgrades, AFaIK it does involve replacing a portion of the electronics, specifically the GPS engine and the nav computer since the existing stuff doesn't meet the performance requirements of TSO 146. The biggest difference in addition to receiving and incorporating the WAAS psuedo-satellite data is that the position update rate goes from once per second to 5 times per second.

 

[Henning]

As Chris said, no, it's a full GPS/Comm/VOR/ILS/3LMB.
I'll be getting an HSI for the 480 to feed, but also a second CDI for the #2 nav (a Garmin SL30 nav/comm for backup nav and comm).

Quotes are still coming in, but it's around $20K installed. Yeah, I know, lotta bucks, but when you want it, you want it -- I plan for this to be my last airplane.

I'm not ready to trust critical vertical nav info from GPS just yet, I'm a bit skeptical. Will any of the GPS boxes tie into a Radar Altimeter?

 

[gismo]

I'm not ready to trust critical vertical nav info from GPS just yet, I'm a bit skeptical. Will any of the GPS boxes tie into a Radar Altimeter?

Nope. At least none of the GA WAAS units (of which there is but one). You can get TAWS on the Garmin 530 pretty cheap and while that doesn't use a radar altimeter, it does use a baro one.

 

[Henning]

Nope. At least none of the GA WAAS units (of which there is but one). You can get TAWS on the Garmin 530 pretty cheap and while that doesn't use a radar altimeter, it does use a baro one.

I think if I was flying vertical info GPS approaches, I'd really want a R/A to cross reference to in hard IFR to mins. I don't care if it's coupled, so long as it's there. Actually for my dollar, I'd buy the R/A first.

 

[gismo]

I think if I was flying vertical info GPS approaches, I'd really want a R/A to cross reference to in hard IFR to mins. I don't care if it's coupled, so long as it's there. Actually for my dollar, I'd buy the R/A first.

That's one bit of avionics I've never flown with, at least not a working one. I've always wondered if you wouldn't get a false indication of low altitude from trees and/or sloping terrain under the approach. How do you actually utilize the R/A indication?

 

[poadeleted3]

Is that Nov 15th of this year for a product that won't be available until Q306, possibly (probably) later? Sucks. Garmin seems to be notoriously late with product updates...weather, WAAS, terrain for starters.

You can be that way when you have no real competition. When they purchased UPS Avionics, this was bound to become the state of the industry, unless King decides to compete on the cutting edge of small aircraft avionics.

 

[wsuffa]

Was it Calendar Q3/06 or Fiscal Q3/06? And what is Garmin's fiscal year?

Some companies still start Fiscal Q1 in July, if Garmin does, and it's referring to Fiscal Q3, that could come as soon as Jan-Mar of calendar 2006.

 

[gismo]

I didn't think the KLN 94 was WAAS capable. I looked on the King website and it doesn't say anything about WAAS.

Jeannie

The KLN-94 is not WAAS capable or upgradable per the folks at BK. Last I heard (6 mos ago) they didn't have a WAAS GPS in the schedule.

 

[poadeleted20]

Was it Calendar Q3/06 or Fiscal Q3/06?

Calendar. Keep in mind that since 2003, Garmin was 6 months away from 430/530 WAAS upgrade. Now they're 15 months away. Does anyone know the true meaning of the word "mañana"? For those who've never been to Mexico and learned their Spanish in a book, it means "tomorrow." Those with true south-of-the-border experience know it means "not today," i.e., "you definitely won't get it today, and as for tomorrow, well, the answer may be the same then, too."