W&B and obstinate pax

Henning said:
Uhhh...2 States... At least CA and CO compete fairly on education...:rolleyes::rofl:
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Yes, I'm aware of that. That was the point in my original post. The CO educational system is awesome. The CA educational system produces people who feel they have to go to the gym whenever they see a picture of a skinny person.
 
COFlyBoy said:
The CA educational system produces people who feel they have to go to the gym whenever they see a picture of a skinny person.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:, Yeah, I'm not a great fan of CA, I spent a decade out there freezing my tail off. But in all fairness, that problem isn't confined to California. The fashion cosmetic and health supplement industries survive by fostering festering insecurities to which they can continually sell you products to treat whatever they told you to not like about yourself.
 
Henning said:
Uhhh...2 States... At least CA and CO compete fairly on education...:rolleyes::rofl:
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Well, it's only 1 state away if you jump across the 4 corners from AZ to CO. ;)

Of course that depends on your definition of "one state away" does that mean 1 state in between, or bordering?
 
It's all fun and games for you guys, but I found that a 200 hp Arrow would not close balance with me and a 160 lbs instructor on board, unless we use my 17 lbs bag as a ballast at the very end of the baggage section. Similarly, the FBO have 2 Cherokees, of which one similarly front-limited, but has a 160 hp, and another is more relaxed, but has 140 hp. So, one day a friend and I decided to make a trip (I wasn't qualified for Arrow back then). Nothing, and I mean it absolutely nothing, would make the balance to close on the 160 hp Cherokee - even taking off with a fuel for 1 hour. Putting one of us in the rear seat probably would, but both had rear seats removed. Just as we realized that we had to cancel, I remembered that the 140 hp one was different. As I understand it, it's a major issue in these so-called "4-place" airplanes designed back in the 1940s. In contrast, a 2-place Remos GX will balance perfectly with anyone who can fit in, because duh, only one row. It does have a 250 lbs seat limit though.
 
I can't tell if Kim is seriously offended or keeps joking around, but either way, Kim, you have nothing to worry about. You look great in those pics.
 
gcd89 said:
Are you required to give your weight on an airline? Not being a jerk, it's an honest question/
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I have when I flew Cape Air they fly Cessna 402s

kimberlyanne546 said:
I don't know if I believe you, but I also can't believe this thread has developed into a debate about whether or not someone's boobs are real . . . and even a 16-year-old was chiming in. I wonder if he knows what a boob is.
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Are you kidding what 16 year old boy dosen't know what a boob is. Is practically most of what they think about.:wink2:

ajstoner21 said:
I can't tell if Kim is seriously offended or keeps joking around, but either way, Kim, you have nothing to worry about. You look great in those pics.
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Ah she knows what its all about she's playing along.
 
ajstoner21 said:
I can't tell if Kim is seriously offended or keeps joking around, but either way, Kim, you have nothing to worry about. You look great in those pics.
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I am not seriously offended. I haven't laughed that hard in months! If you read the thread from start to finish it was sooo funny. Everyone, especially the OP, has a great sense of humor.

I heart the W & B thread.
 
COFlyBoy said:
Yes, I'm aware of that. That was the point in my original post. The CO educational system is awesome. The CA educational system produces people who feel they have to go to the gym whenever they see a picture of a skinny person.
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I was too tired, it was after midnight. I didn't go. I might go today - but only if I see another skinny person.
 
The first 28 people to warn you about Ed didn't give you pause...why should this?? :D
 
jason said:
The first 28 people to warn you about Ed didn't give you pause...why should this?? :D
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And those 28 people warned me about Ed only AFTER I had found out via PM what a nice guy he was.

Oh and STUNNING blue eyes.

So they could not undo all the good that Ed did.

Besides, this is all in good fun. Ed just likes being a second grader, and, let's face it, I've been somewhat of a second grader on here too.
 
zaitcev said:
It's all fun and games for you guys, but I found that a 200 hp Arrow would not close balance with me and a 160 lbs instructor on board, unless we use my 17 lbs bag as a ballast at the very end of the baggage section. Similarly, the FBO have 2 Cherokees, of which one similarly front-limited, but has a 160 hp, and another is more relaxed, but has 140 hp.
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Huh... Interesting. I've flown only a couple of the hershey bar wing Cherokees, but have a fair amount of time in (thinking...) at least 8 different PA28's including all four varieties of the Arrow, and I've never had a W&B problem except in the Arrow IV (the T-tailed one) even with at least 500 lbs of meat in the front seats (my CFII is a big guy too).

That was one of my big complaints about the Arrow IV. The III, we were fine with just the two of us in the front seats. In the IV, we'd have to throw 120 lbs in the baggage compartment - The T-tail is less effective, being out of the propwash, so the front of the CG envelope is moved back a full 3.5 inches (which is a LOT) and a soft-field takeoff is practically impossible. Blech.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Huh... Interesting. I've flown only a couple of the hershey bar wing Cherokees, but have a fair amount of time in (thinking...) at least 8 different PA28's including all four varieties of the Arrow, and I've never had a W&B problem except in the Arrow IV (the T-tailed one) even with at least 500 lbs of meat in the front seats (my CFII is a big guy too).

That was one of my big complaints about the Arrow IV. The III, we were fine with just the two of us in the front seats. In the IV, we'd have to throw 120 lbs in the baggage compartment - The T-tail is less effective, being out of the propwash, so the front of the CG envelope is moved back a full 3.5 inches (which is a LOT) and a soft-field takeoff is practically impossible. Blech.
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This reminds me that the Beech Sierra also requires a large dose of ballast in the baggage compartment if you try 500lbs in the front seat and full fuel. But it can be done.
 
gprellwitz said:
This reminds me that the Beech Sierra also requires a large dose of ballast in the baggage compartment if you try 500lbs in the front seat and full fuel. But it can be done.
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Mmm.... ballast... :)
 
zaitcev said:
It's all fun and games for you guys, but I found that a 200 hp Arrow would not close balance with me and a 160 lbs instructor on board, unless we use my 17 lbs bag as a ballast at the very end of the baggage section. Similarly, the FBO have 2 Cherokees, of which one similarly front-limited, but has a 160 hp, and another is more relaxed, but has 140 hp. So, one day a friend and I decided to make a trip (I wasn't qualified for Arrow back then). Nothing, and I mean it absolutely nothing, would make the balance to close on the 160 hp Cherokee - even taking off with a fuel for 1 hour.
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flyingcheesehead said:
Huh... Interesting. I've flown only a couple of the hershey bar wing Cherokees, but have a fair amount of time in (thinking...) at least 8 different PA28's including all four varieties of the Arrow, and I've never had a W&B problem except in the Arrow IV (the T-tailed one) even with at least 500 lbs of meat in the front seats (my CFII is a big guy too).
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Hmmm... A 160hp Cherokee 140 even with two 170 pounders and full fuel still as a bit to go before being out of the envelope, that's with zero pounds passenger weight and baggage. Never flown or done a W&B for an Arrow. Sure those W&B charts are right? When was the plane last weighted?

Granted they tend to be front heavy, but some checking may be in order. Is there ANY configuration that gets you into the Utility category?

Gary
 
Gary said:
Hmmm... A 160hp Cherokee 140 even with two 170 pounders and full fuel still as a bit to go before being out of the envelope, that's with zero pounds passenger weight and baggage. Never flown or done a W&B for an Arrow. Sure those W&B charts are right? When was the plane last weighted?
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I've never flown a Cherokee 140... As far as the hershey bars, I've only flown the PA28-235, PA28R-180, and PA28R-200.
 
The cherokee 180 (PA28-180) that we fly has a very forward CG. With two good sized people in the front, you'd have a hard time keeping it inside the envelope (with full fuel). 100 lbs in the baggage compartment makes a big difference.
 
jason said:
The cherokee 180 (PA28-180) that we fly has a very forward CG. With two good sized people in the front, you'd have a hard time keeping it inside the envelope (with full fuel). 100 lbs in the baggage compartment makes a big difference.
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Does the W&B graph have a single angled line, or a double angled line?
 
EdFred said:
Does the W&B graph have a single angled line, or a double angled line?
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The one that's more limited has double, and the more relaxed one has tripple. Arrow has double. And in case you think I miscounted, the 1967 Mooney M20E that I'm angling to rent only has single: a rectangle with one corner sawed off.
 
Gary said:
A 160hp Cherokee 140 even with two 170 pounders and full fuel still as a bit to go before being out of the envelope.
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That is a humorous turn of phrase. Yeah, I bet if you find two 170 pounters, CG in Cherokee is no problem. But I think the last time I even saw an adult who weighed that little was Mari. I weigh 230-235 pounds, depending, and finding my belly may be a little difficult. It's common to think that Americans are "obese". But the thing is, WWII generation was pigmees on average. The 160 lbs CFI I mentioned previously is about 70 years old and barely reaches above my elbow.
 
EdFred said:
Does the W&B graph have a single angled line, or a double angled line?
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The envelope has two angled lines and is the correct one for the serial number (I've checked the TCDS). I've also poured through the aircraft logbooks back to day one and the weight and balance data is correct. A slightly later serial number PA-28-180 provides a much better envelope. There is also a service bulletin (different nosewheel strut), but this airplane does not have the improved strut which changes the envelope.

I have a 300 lb student and I weigh about 160 lbs. The only way to make it work is to limit yourself to 36 gallons of fuel and stick 120 lbs of baggage in the back.

It just goes to show that one shouldn't make assumptions about weight and balance. I often watch people get into the airplane and fly away and there is just no way they're in the envelope. But they've probably never checked.

38j-wnb.png
 
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I don't have it in front of me, but I thought I read that the W&B from the later serial numbers were actually made retroactive to previous PA28 serial numbers. The other thing with that is that I believe the front seat arm is based on the front hole, or the middle hole (I forget which one), so if your 300lb'er is back 6-12" that can help too.
 
EdFred said:
I don't have it in front of me, but I thought I read that the W&B from the later serial numbers were actually made retroactive to previous PA28 serial numbers. The other thing with that is that I believe the front seat arm is based on the front hole, or the middle hole (I forget which one), so if your 300lb'er is back 6-12" that can help too.
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It is only retroactive if the strut gets replaced with a different one (different pn), ours isnt. I read the SB.
 
Danielle says you look like you're pushing 150.
 
jesse said:
Danielle says you look like you're pushing 150.
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She sounds like a sweetheart. Can't wait to meet her. You're a lucky guy!

Tell her she's wrong, though, in those pictures I'm closer to 190 pounds plus or minus.
 
If that's what 190 looks like I have been seriously overgross on most of my flights with comely passengers. I might as well surrender my license/ticket/certificate.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Number one: I have seen the movie, years ago, but unlike some posters on here I did not memorize every line in the movie. The line he was referring to was simply one sentence in a movie.

Number two: Is this a thread about weight and balance or is this a Kimberly bashing thread? I can't tell.
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I can't help it, I've got a near-photographic memory. Today I flew with someone like you. Good-looking enough to notice. Young enough to feel strange about noticing.

....Looking for my walker,
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
No I do not.

Ed called me "Kimdenburg" which is "Kim" (me) plus "Hindenburg" (a blimp).

I am neither a blimp nor a cow.

Heck, I'm not even a pilot (well, I am, but only a student pilot).

So really, I am a nobody.

In fact, perhaps I am imaginary.
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Oh, wait. Didn't somebody once create an entirely ficticious person on this board once solely for the sake of arguing with them? Or am I thinking of a different board.

Maybe this is all Ed. Just Ed.
 
TMetzinger said:
Oh, wait. Didn't somebody once create an entirely ficticious person on this board once solely for the sake of arguing with them? Or am I thinking of a different board.

Maybe this is all Ed. Just Ed.
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So much for that "near-photographic memory". :)

But if you do possess such a memory why would you continue to look at good looking women? Like redwoods, you've seen one, you've seen 'em all. :rolleyes:
 
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